God is love. God is just.

[Copper Scroll]

If the Jews were in power, and still operating by the law of Moses, they would have had a legal right to stone the adulterous woman to death. It was Jesus' wise words that caused them to have a guilty conscience.

So your argument is that Jesus would have said "Hit her good and hard." if the Jews were in power (and the other adulterer were present). I would tend to disagree.

Pick your felony. It is the minority of criminals that return to the streets that become law abiding citizens.

Because of what I said in my post. Rehabilitation is not a priority in our criminal justice system--neither is prevention.

Most commit serious crimes again. Even if you could guarantee a huge success rate, and you can't, that is not the point. They still have a possibility of salvation, even if they don't get the opportunity to save their mortal life down here. The remote chance of rehabilitation doesn't change the need for justice.

And ideas of what justice looks like vary wildly. Some think eternal torture is a just punishment for being born in the wrong culture and that death by stoning is a just punishment for a young woman who gets married without being a virgin. You and I won't get far arguing about what is just.

Let me ask you this. What degree of fascist was Moses?

I guess this would depend on the legal practices of his contemporaries. In this modern context, he (as the legislator/constitutional author of the old Jewish law) would be a fascist.

Like I said, then you must consider Moses equal to Hitler and Mussolini. You must consider Israel while under the law of Moses equal to an Islamic theocracy?

Equal? I don't know. Somewhat comparable? Yes.

[Copper Scroll]

I appreciate your honest answers concerning Moses. It was very bold of you to come out and say there was little difference between him and Hitler and Musolini.

Well, I didn't really say that. I didn't compare him to Hitler.

You didn't answer what I asked about Jehovah God however.

Because I didn't agree with the premise of the question.

He gave Moses the law in the first place, in your analogie in another post the one you refered to as Child C. Is the God of the Old Testament a fascist and like Hitler as well in your mind?

As I said at least twice before--by today's standards, that law is fascistic. Whoever wrote it would be considered a fascist, by today's standards.

[Guest shiloh357]

As I said at least twice before--by today's standards, that law is fascistic. Whoever wrote it would be considered a fascist, by today's standards.

What a crock. No one who knows what fascism is, AND actually reads the Bible can draw any practical similarity bewteen fascism a term first used by Benito Mussolini and a theocracy as seen in the system God established.

It gets old to have the old blanket accusation that God was/is a fascist. It may sound intellectual, it may make someone feel "smart" to use words like "fascism", but it highlights a considerable amount of practical ignorance when used to describe the Bible.

It would make you look a lot more intelligent, Copper Scroll if you bothered to study a bit more before trying to throw terms around. You really don't know what you are talking about.

[Copper Scroll]

You were responding to the following question I asked, "Like I said then, you must consider Moses equal to Hitler and Musolini. You must consider Israel while under the law of Moses equal to an Islamic theocracy?" Your answer was, and I quote, "Equal? I don't know. Somewhat comparable? Yes." You did compare him to Hitler.

Hitler was not an Islamic theocrat. He was a racist tyrannical fascist mass-murderer.

I like the way you worded that last answer. You say by today's standards, the God of the Old Testament would be considered a fascist and like Hitler.

You add "like Hitler".

What about by your standards? Is the God of the Old Testament a fascist and like Hitler to you? You gave an honest answer, (although backed off somewhat concerning your Hitler comparison) in regard to your feelings toward Moses. How do you view the God of the Old Testament? Is he a fascist and like Hitler and Mussolini to you?

God can't be a fascist, because God is not human. What makes fascism wrong is that one fallible, ignorant, sinful human being stands up and seeks to control the lives of other fallible, ignorant, sinful human beings--an authority he doesn't deserve. He is incapable of wielding this sort of social control justly and righteously. Every dictator is a tyrant. God, on the other hand, is perfect, omniscient, and righteous. The label "fascism" doesn't apply.

Edited March 1, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[Copper Scroll]

What a crock. No one who knows what fascism is, AND actually reads the Bible can draw any practical similarity bewteen fascism a term first used by Benito Mussolini and a theocracy as seen in the system God established.

It gets old to have the old blanket accusation that God was/is a fascist. It may sound intellectual, it may make someone feel "smart" to use words like "fascism", but it highlights a considerable amount of practical ignorance when used to describe the Bible.

It would make you look a lot more intelligent, Copper Scroll if you bothered to study a bit more before trying to throw terms around. You really don't know what you are talking about.

...Baseless criticism. How about bringing a definition for the word "fascism" and using it to show how the old Jewish law is not fascistic?

[Guest shiloh357]

What a crock. No one who knows what fascism is, AND actually reads the Bible can draw any practical similarity bewteen fascism a term first used by Benito Mussolini and a theocracy as seen in the system God established.

It gets old to have the old blanket accusation that God was/is a fascist. It may sound intellectual, it may make someone feel "smart" to use words like "fascism", but it highlights a considerable amount of practical ignorance when used to describe the Bible.

It would make you look a lot more intelligent, Copper Scroll if you bothered to study a bit more before trying to throw terms around. You really don't know what you are talking about.

...Baseless criticism. How about bringing a definition for the word "fascism" and using it to show how the old Jewish law is not fascistic?

First of all, Jewish Law in the Old Testament is not "Jewish." It was given by God to Israel. It was not invented by the Jews. It is based upon a theocracy where God is King. Fascism is based upon mob rule. Secondly, fascism exploits anti-Semtism. There is no racism in God's Law. Those who were not of Israelite "stock" were to be treated as native born, with all of the same rights and privileges as those who born Israeli.

I have to get ready for work. There are a myriad of other points about fascism that run contrary to "Jewish Law" as seen in Scripture. When I get home tonight, I will further debunk your fallacious comparison of the Bible with fascism.

[Copper Scroll]

First of all, Jewish Law in the Old Testament is not "Jewish." It was given by God to Israel. It was not invented by the Jews. It is based upon a theocracy where God is King.

None of the kings in the OT were God.

Fascism is based upon mob rule. Secondly, fascism exploits anti-Semtism.

That Hitler and all Nazis are antiSemetic is without doubt. Fascism is about social control and nationalism--not necessarily racism or ethnocentrism.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Mar 1 2006, 09:32 AM)

First of all, Jewish Law in the Old Testament is not "Jewish." It was given by God to Israel. It was not invented by the Jews. It is based upon a theocracy where God is King.

None of the kings in the OT were God.

You missed the point. God established a theocracy in the first five books of the Old Testament. The emergence of Kings in Israel, while anticipated by God in Deut 17, was a divergance, an abandonment of the system God established which YOU say is fascist. God, through Samuel tried to dissuade the people from wanting a king, but then conceded, to their demands. God, anticipating this, even established rules for how a king should behave. You cannot draw ANY parallels between the system you call "Jewish Law" which is really God's Torah and fascism. Your remarks heretofore, demonstrate a severe lack of knowledge of the Old Testament beyond the baseless characterizations you choose impose upon it.

QUOTE

Fascism is based upon mob rule. Secondly, fascism exploits anti-Semtism.

That Hitler and all Nazis are antiSemetic is without doubt. Fascism is about social control and nationalism--not necessarily racism or ethnocentrism.

Anti-Semitism was rampant in Italy under Benito Mussolini as well.

Fascism is about the glorification of the state and the absolute submission of the the people to the state. No such concept exists in the Torah. The individual must be absorbed into the whole. The Bible teaches no such thing. The Bible teaches that the good of the one OVER the good of the many. Fascism demands that the individual sacrifice their individualism for the good of the state. The Bible never makes such a demand.

Fascism teaches social Darwinism. It treats peace as a weakness and those peaceful complacent nations are then more vulnerable to more aggressive nation. This is an underlying principle Islam. Fascism is essentially imperialistic. No where does the Bible establish or glorify imperialism. There is no command to make the world, "Israel." Compare Israel's history with modern fascist nations and the difference is apparent. Germany was a good example of fascism and how it runs contrary to every biblical principle in Scripture.

What about the system of classes in fascism??? It was very pro-elitist, and the Bible teaches against elitism. It has as another characteristic the authoritarian leader, such as what we saw with Hitler. In the Bible, God established no such system bearing this characteristic. In the Bible, God established a system of Priests who were to represent the nation before God, continuously offering up prayers and sacrifices on the nation's behalf. God made NO provision for a self glorifying authoritarian such as we see with Hitler. To try and compare God system with Nazi Germany is simply ludicrous. You need to read your Bible.

[Copper Scroll]

God can't be a fascist, because God is not human. What makes fascism wrong is that one fallible, ignorant, sinful human being stands up and seeks to control the lives of other fallible, ignorant, sinful human beings--an authority he doesn't deserve. He is incapable of wielding this sort of social control justly and righteously. Every dictator is a tyrant. God, on the other hand, is perfect, omniscient, and righteous. The label "fascism" doesn't apply.

That is the point Copper Scroll. These are not my standards. I agree that we human beings don't know what is best, but God does. The laws governing Old Testament Israel were given by God, not man. That is why I think it is wise to set up a government based on similiar laws. Look at what the Bible says about God's laws and judgements. Deut. 4:5-8

5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, EVEN AS THE LORD MY GOD COMMANDED ME, that ye should go to possess it.

6 Keep therefore and do them, for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so night unto them, and the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

8 AND WHAT NATION IS THERE SO GREAT, THAT HATH STATUTES AND JUDGMENTS SO RIGHTEOUS AS ALL THIS LAW, WHICH I SET BEFORE YOU THIS DAY?

What we call the law of Moses is really the law of God. You even alluded to that in you analogie about the Father and Child C. The Father God commanded Moses (v 5) to teach the people these statutes and judgments. Since you believe as I do that mankind is not capable of setting up their own standards of right and wrong and judging others by those laws, I do not understand why you don't accept that this law given by God is better than your ideas and what mine would be outside of it?

Even if we agreed that law came explicitly from God, it is human beings who must practice, enforce, and execute it. We are incapable of doing this correctly, justly, or righteously--because we are all sinners. Even the OT says that God didn't like most of the kings who ended up ruling Israel. The only person fit to be king truly is God. Anyone who would stand in God's place is a tyrant.

[Copper Scroll]

You missed the point. God established a theocracy in the first five books of the Old Testament. The emergence of Kings in Israel, while anticipated by God in Deut 17, was a divergance, an abandonment of the system God established which YOU say is fascist. God, through Samuel tried to dissuade the people from wanting a king, but then conceded, to their demands.

Agreed. You brought the "king" issue up, though.

You cannot draw ANY parallels between the system you call "Jewish Law" which is really God's Torah and fascism.

Social control. Brutal punishment for disobedience. Nationalism. You have not demonstrated how it is not like fascism.

Fascism is about the glorification of the state and the absolute submission of the the people to the state. No such concept exists in the Torah.

If the state says "Don't sleep with a member of the same sex, or we'll stone you to death," how is this not about submission to the state?

The individual must be absorbed into the whole. The Bible teaches no such thing.

Then why did everybody (including the little babies) in various places and nations found "wicked" in the OT all have to die? Someone on another thread once argued that God does judge nations as a whole (or at least did in the OT).

Fascism teaches social Darwinism. It treats peace as a weakness and those peaceful complacent nations are then more vulnerable to more aggressive nation. This is an underlying principle Islam.

If I lived on Israel's promised land when they came to take it, I would certainly consider them an aggressive nation.

Fascism is essentially imperialistic. No where does the Bible establish or glorify imperialism.

Israel's claim to the promised land.

There is no command to make the world, "Israel." Compare Israel's history with modern fascist nations and the difference is apparent. Germany was a good example of fascism and how it runs contrary to every biblical principle in Scripture.

I'm not trying to say that the Bible as a whole is fascistic, to be clear. This discussion came from another poster's argument that we should adopt the OT law today. Do you agree with this poster?