Saved by faith.

[ElijahSK]

I only bring this topic up because recently my views have been completely changed in reguards to it. Since I was 12 until recently (now 21), I had problems with sin. I had always hear that we are saved by faith, and I never had a problem with doubting my salvation. I also always hear that sanctification was a seperate work from justification/salvation. Where as by faith you receive your salvation, on the other hand you must work it out. I found that no matter what I did there was no solution to my lack of sanctification; that is until I came to know one thing.

By faith you are saved, and by faith you are sanctified. You're works attest to your faith, but they never enter the picture in reguards to either. Now here I'll lay out my points. A pray that it falls on good soil, people as the bereans who will search out the scriptures daily to see if what I say is true (not just dismissing it straightway). I know the word of God will not return void. Even as the rain falls to the ground and returns not to the heavens, but it brings forth plants, giving seed to the sower, and bread to the eater, so the word of the Lord will go out from His mouth and not return void.

First, we must answer a basic question. What is faith? Faith is belief. It's an agreement of the mind to the truth of what another declares, resting on his authority, with no other evidence. Exercising faith is nothing more than believing something. Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. He did so not as a work unto God, but by faith he knew it to be true. Abraham received a promise to be the father of many nations. When he trying to work to become it, he produced Ishmael. But by faith Sarah was delivered of Isaac, when she judged (reckoned, believed) Him faithful who had promised. Abraham did not depart for the land of promise by His own work unto God, but he believed what God had promised was true, and thus he departed not knowing where he went. Faith is the only way Moses would choose that affliction with God's people was better than the pleasures of sin. He was mindful of the reward he would receive, and yet by faith he counted the reproach of Christ greater riches than all the treasures in Eygpt. These all died not having seen the fulfillment of the promises they had, but having seen them far off, they were persuaded by them, they embraced them, by faith they confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims here. They took no thought of the countries they left, because they by faith knew that they had something so much better in store.

Adam was created in faith. God told him you can eat from all these, but don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of God and evil. Then God left him alone. He kept that faith toward God's word until the serpent tricked Eve. And she did not keep faith in God, rather she put faith in deception; Adam also. And thus we fell, but faith was our original state and how God made us to abide with Him. Now we no longer abide in faith but we live by our feelings in a world of doubt.

My goal in what I have said thus far has been to prove this one point: faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Like our salvation, and as I will attempt to show you like our sanctification.

Christ tells us in John 8 that whoever commits sin is a servant to sin. Paul in Romans 7 tells us about his experience as a Jew. He tried to do everything right, but found that he could never fulfill the whole law. That which he willed to do, he couldn't do. That which he did not will to do; he found himself doing. What was his conclusion? But that he saw 2 laws in his members, one warring against another, the law of my mind, and the law of sin which was in his members. We then find him asking, yes even pleading and begging, "Oh wretched man that I am, WHO WILL DELIVER ME FROM THE BODY OF THE DEATH?" John tells us in 1 John 3 that he that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. And this is why the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I hope you see in these few (if you look you'll find alot more scriptures to support the point) verse that anyone who sins is a slave to sin. That being said a man can not serve two masters. So what do we do if we find ourselves trying to serve one but in deed serving both?

Some may say, pray for God's help to overcome sin. But can you find any scripture that could support such a view? In fact, God does not offer help to someone for the overcoming of sins. What does God do? He stands far off and kills you. Don't believe me? Well, I'll support my view in scripture. I'd rather you not believe me because you don't believe scripture, than not believe me because I told you something you didn't agree with.

Keep in mind what we have already established about faith. You don't have to experience it. You don't have to see it. You simply must submit that God is right. Be persuaded by that. Embrace that. By that confess what I am about to show you.

Jesus says to the harlot in John 8, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." You may say whoa wait a minute Jesus, that will take years of sanctifying work. But He says, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." If you continue in His word, you show faith toward Him. You say thank you for not condemning me, I will do as you say, You are the truth, and You have set me free. Then He says, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." Can't be free indeed and indeed not free.

Well, maybe the words of Jesus aren't clear enough for some. That is alright, because Jesus showed Himself to Paul, and Paul wrote many letters to the churches explaining our topic further. And now I'll tell you some of what Paul told them and they kept for us to also read even today.

Paul asks, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Well, Paul I don't experience this death to sin, how is it so? To which he replies, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" and "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." So wait a second, my old man (that man that survives against my spirit) was crucified with Him? Why that means... "For he that is dead is freed from sin." Wow, ok so I am dead to sin. What about temptation do I fight it/battle it? "reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Here is all we need to do to overcome temptation. Reckon (or believe) you are dead in deed to sin. But Paul, this sin has a hold on me, really I believe all that but... To which he'd reply "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." and "know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" and then "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you"

Likewise if you read chapter 8 he goes on to tell us all about how the law of the Spirit has set us free from the law of sin and death. John tells us, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

So now the final question. Should we believe Jesus, and Paul, and John, or should we believe we are still captive to sin as a crutch for faltering faith? A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. A man cannot serve to masters. When you were a servant to sin, you were free from righteousness. But now, being the chosen of God, you are a servant to righteousness. And the only work you need to do is believe it is so. (And of course, your actions will reflect what you believe. How could they not?)

[branchesofHim]

So now the final question. Should we believe Jesus, and Paul, and John, or should we believe we are still captive to sin as a crutch for faltering faith? A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. A man cannot serve to masters. When you were a servant to sin, you were free from righteousness. But now, being the chosen of God, you are a servant to righteousness. And the only work you need to do is believe it is so. (And of course, your actions will reflect what you believe. How could they not?)

What you believe is what will determine your choices which will determine your results.

Peace.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think a little clarification is needed, here. In the following verse, Jesus was talking about those who are commiting sin habitually. The way the Greek renders it is a continuous enaging in the same sin over and over. It is not talking about an isolated occurance of sin.

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

(John 8:34)

John tells us in 1 John 3 that he that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. And this is why the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Again, the same thing. It is those who keep on sinning who have no compunction about their behavior.

I think it is important to understand that John was trying to help his readers know the difference between those who merely professed faith in Christ, and the true believers. In this chapter he goes to great lengths to demonstrate that those who live in continuous habitual sin, and do so without grief cannot be said to be truly born again.

We must avoid even the appearance of using verses like these to indicate that if a person slips up and sins, that they are a servant of the devil, or something. I am not saying that you are doing that, but I see that clarification needed in your remarks, ElijahSK.

[ElijahSK]

I guess the only thing I would ask you is, are you saying that when we are tempted, our way of escape is confession of faith? In other words, if I am tempted to steal, when that occurs, I remind the devil I am not under bondage to sin anymore because Jesus has set me free, believe that what I said is true, and then act upon it?

First, I would like to say I'm grateful surprised to see anyone replied to this topic. Even more I rejoice that someone read it and agrees with it mostly, or in full (even in part if its the right parts heh).

Well, I would hate to get a reputation of being that guy with very length posts, but I would hate more to waste an opportunity. I'll try not to overload you, but your question is ever enticing. One I have recent had and experienced the answer to so I'm still burning to let the testimony come bursting out.

Now, 1 John 5:4-5 says, "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" This is how it's worked for me. James 1 says, "Count it all joy when ye fall into diverse temptations. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. And let patience have her perfect work that you may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (Sidenote: Since I have come to this belief, I began studying the Bible as I use to. My first thing was to memorize Heb 11, James 1, 1 Cor 13, and I'm on my way through Roman 6. If you have the word in your heart when that temptation comes you can rejoice so much the easier. No glory to me, God enabled me to retain.) Then later in James 1 it says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation, for when he is tried, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him."

My main problem growing up was I never knew I was free. I understood that the old man was crucified with Christ when I came to Him. I thought that the old man comes up sometimes, and I had to die daily. But now I understand, that if we come to Christ we are a new creature. Old things have past away behold all thing have become new. So if I want to go and sin, it's possible, but if I do it's the new man sinning. For me to live is Christ. Before when I was a slave to sin, I was freed from righteousness. Now being a slave to righteousness, I'm freed from sin. If you believe it as it is written, then when that temptation comes it's not "well I can claim that verse tomorrow". It's thank you Lord for victory! I could never have stopped this before I was freed by you. Temptation is no longer a stumbling block it's a chance to receive blessing. God always provides a way of escape. And when you have faith that His law is good and good is to be desired. Or when you have faith that His rewards, although not seen today, not tomorrow, if your like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, et al it may not even be in your life on this earth, are greater than that pleasure or that thing you covet or that person you hate or whatever. No matter how you find your way to it it all comes back to this. Faith toward God through Jesus Christ is freedom from sin.

Now if you know you are free, and if you know God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him, doing what He says is not a burden anymore. Even as 1 John says. If I tell you blue is the best color (just for heresay), and you believe me. You take faith in what I say and pronounce that blue is the best color. You cross someone on the street talking about the color gray, and they say it's the best color. Well, your faith is in me and it won't waver. You tell them that no blue is the best, Elijah said so. In doing that you honor me. You, I would say, even went as far to please me.

It is the same with God. He tells us we are free. He tells us were dead. He tells us since we are dead we are also risen. When we believe Him, no matter what victory it be (big or small) He is honored by our faith and pleased, and He in turn gives us blessings and crowns and anything you could have never imagined in 10,000 years. That if you would have known it was going to be like that, why you wouldn't have been just asking for that watch, house, suit, whatever. You'd be down right content to life out you life not worrying about what you were to wear, eat, drink, where you were to live etc.

Our country is not the USA (or where ever you might reside). Our place is not on this earth. We are strangers and pilgrims here, so that we can be rulers and priests there. In light of so great rewards, is that sin anything? When you have faith toward God, temptation is just another blessing in disguise.

To make sure I answered your question here's the quick version. Don't remind the devil. Reckon yourself (believe, know) dead to sin but live to God. Don't strive against it. That takes the focus off of Christ (our victory) and onto the sin. Believe God's word. Go and sin no more. He who the Son sets free is free indeed. Now rejoice from once you have endured this short trial you've gotten blessing worth infinity more than their weight in gold.

[Guest shiloh357]

So if I want to go and sin, it's possible, but if I do it's the new man sinning.

No so. The part of you that is recreated does not sin. The reborn human spirit cannot sin. It is your flesh that sins.

[ElijahSK]

No so. The part of you that is recreated does not sin. The reborn human spirit cannot sin. It is your flesh that sins.

shiloh,

I understand this point of view, in fact it was the one that I held up until recent. I've found that to be an experiential way to look at the issue, rather than a biblical one. Myself, wanting to stick with what we see in the Bible (despite how it doesn't add up to what I experience), must accept the words as they are written or deny them as they are written. What Paul says in chapter 6 here in Romans is very simple to understand. He states, "Knowing this, that your old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." So here we see that the "old man" also known as that part sold under slavery to sin and death or the flesh has been crucified. God doesn't help us overcome sin. He kills us, and once we are dead then we are free. So to that some may say, the old man is crucified but I must die daily. Well, to respond I'd kep reading a couple more verses. "For in that he died, he died unto sin once; but in that he liveth he liveth into God." So we don't die and die again and again. Rather it was done once, and now that we profess Christ we are dead and now live unto God. Next verse, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." He says Christ died once and now lives unto God, likewise you believe/think/know yourselves to be dead inDEED to sin, but alive unto God. He goes on to speak about who you yield yourself to to them you are servants. Whether to sin unto death or righteousness unto life. Really there is no way to explain it better than Paul by the inspiration of God did in these passages. All we must do is accept it. Believe it, even as Abraham believed he was the faith of many nations but never saw it. Our God is a God who declares the things that are, as though they are. God's elect are the only ones throughout time that when He made such declarations who believe Him on His word. Our task has not changed today.

To put things maybe a little more into perpective for you. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Carnally minded is walking after your senses and what you perceive. Like saying I just can't get this old man down. Well, he's not to be gotten down. He is to be killed. You see the world, if you come to them with a problem will take you to the source. They'll take you back through you history and find all those events that happened when you were a child (or maybe even generation curses) that make you do what you do. It's like if you were a car, and they are the mechanic. They'd be changing you fluids, putting air in the tires, new spark plugs, checking the engine, checking the tranmission. They'd say man you've beat up on this car, where have you been with it? That's the world's way to handle it and they do a fix it up job. On the other hand, God is completely different. You bring your car to His shop and tell Him it's been a long road, need some fixing. He tells you to go park your car out back. You go park it give the keeps to a worker and watch them drive your car into a crusher. You are maybe shocked, but what can you do? You run to God and tell Him, I asked you to fix my car, what have you done to it? He says that ol' piece of junk, forget about it you're riding shotgun with me now. You see God isn't about fixing you up so you can fight against sin. He isn't about giving you that power to overcome it. He won't answer your prayers when you ask "God, help me get rid of this sin." No rather He stands at a distance, and crucifies you together with Himself. Then He resurrects you and says now go and sin no more. Will we trust in God's word or in the power of sin in our bodies? Each is a master, each leading you in a different direction. You have to pick which way you're gonna go, and trust me there is nothing like being hooked up with the creator of the universe.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Heb 11 puts it like this But without faith it is impossible to please Him. Without faith - flesh - death. Faith - Spirit - Life. Keep in mind a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. You can't serve two masters. Be either hot or cold, the lukewarm God will vomit up. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. In this verse you see a very distinct line. Either be in the flesh and don't have the Spirit, and be not of Christ's. Or be in the Spirit, having the Spirit of God dwelling in you. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Here again, if Christ is in you, your dead, the Spirit is your life.

I can only think of one verse were a person of God goes back to sin. And that verse says that there remains no more sacrifice for sin, being that you would have to crucify anew the Son of God and as we saw in Romans that only happens once. That being said do I believe you can fall from your salvation? No, not at all. But my brethren who are being misled as I once was will be overjoyed to find out sin is the seldom exception, and as far as the east is from the west the rule.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Elijah,

I am surprised that no one has commented on the fact that we are saved by GRACE, -NOT- faith. Let me quote the primary verse:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is an important distinction for the Christian. God's grace is always so much greater than man's "faith". Grace is boundless, unlimited, covering every possible situation. Whereas man's faith is often very little - remember the story of the mustard seed. Our faith won't save us, for who among us can do the things that Jesus did/does? Our faith is so small in comparison with His, for He was given the "spirit without measure". No matter who we are, we are given only a "measure" of faith which is suited for the tasks God has set for us to do.

Faith is the conduit between God and us which allows His Grace to flow to us. So keep the FAITH baby, but don't forget that it too is a gift of God and it is His unmerited favor which brings us into His Sonship.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ElijahSK]

Greetings Elijah,

I am surprised that no one has commented on the fact that we are saved by GRACE, -NOT- faith. Let me quote the primary verse:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Well, you certainly can't argue with that. Without God's grace, we would still be under the law. The only way the new covenant was established is by grace. We owed a tremedious debt, and the other one who can forgive a debt is the one to which it is owed. If I go to your house and break a window, that window costing $20, let's say, I'd owe you that $20. Now if you said don't worry about the window I'll get your brother to pay for it. That is not forgiveness that is transferring the debt. But God to which we owed our lives, came down and became a man so that He could forgive our debt by paying our penilty for us. As in the analogy, He would have said, don't worry about the window, I've got you covered.

Although it was not specificly stated if you read the posts, I would hope you'd see that. 12 step programs make you put faith in something, could be a shoe, could be a tree. It works for alot of people for a time. But any faith that is not rooted in our Lord Jesus Christ will come to naught. Without God's grace, we'd having none of this which we talked about in the previous post to in which to put our faith.

Thank you for the post and the scripture. Faith without grace would leave us back in a place of patiently waiting for our Savior to come.

[ElijahSK]

I chopped up alot of what you said to get to what I would reply to. I'm not quite sure if you read what was posted so far, or maybe if you disagreed with some of it. The original reason I put saved by faith was to put sanctified by works? Because faith and works are always juxaposed. The topic was more to explain the freedom from sin that Christ gave us by which we are sanctified. That freedom completely sets you free from works. Although you have them, it is a result of what you believe.

we have our daily forgiveness through going to his throne of grace (Heb. 4:14-16).

Based on what we covered so far, if you believe it, you won't need daily forgiveness. Rather you'll be a servant to righteousness, and sin becomes the few and very far between instead of righteousness.

(3) The writer speaks of "any profane person" such as Esau (v. 16). The word used here is bebelos and means unhallowed. It is used for profane in opposition to consecrated. "Bebelos is used for the person who is uninitiated and uninterested in contradistinction to the man who is devout" (Barclay). A profane life is one lived without thought of or interest in God.

(4) Really, the way we fall short of God's grace is by "refusing to hear Jesus" (v. 25).

As far as the ways people fall short. Would you consider Esau a man of faith? Who you group the unhallowed and the chosen elect of God? Could a person that is uninterested in God be of God? Would one of Jesus sheep, not hear His voice? Surely, these are not people of God. Maybe they are, but they are out of the way, and need a good rebuke/exhortation brother to brother.

No, don't think for one moment that God's grace automatically takes care of all our sins and rejections of his will. "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be" (Rom. 6: 1).

On the other hand, reckon at all times that His grace has automatically taken care of your sins and rejections of His will. We were servants to sin, and then we were freed from righteousness. That is what Jesus came and died for. So that we could now be servants of righteousness and free from sin. As the next verse states, "How shall we that are dead to sin, continue any longer therein?" (Romans 6:2) And later on, "He that is dead is freed from sin."

Anyways, thank you for a good post on grace. I'm sure maybe I'm just a little tried, but we're running along the same lines.

[ElijahSK]

Hello again ElijahSK,

I rejoice with you that God has set you free from the bondages of sin. I again, pretty much agree with what you have written, but this post brings up two more questions. First, I agree that we are to reckon ourselves dead, as the Bible tells us to do just that. I am not sure about that one sentence however where you said, "Don't strive against it." Aren't we told to resist the devil, and he will flee from us?

The other thing I wanted to ask you about is where you mentioned how God wants to bless us. I have no problem with that, nor asking for things we need in Jesus name, believing that God will answer our prayers that our joy may be full. I just wonder how far you are taking that? Are you speaking of things we need, like in the Lord's prayer we are to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread," or are you speaking about anything, like those of the "name it and claim it believers?" I believe we may request anything good from the Lord, but don't believe in demanding things or becoming greedy in asking for things like becoming as rich as Ted Turner.

Again, I think I am on the same page with you, but am not sure. That is why I am asking for clarification on these matters.

Thank you, for bringing up a couple good questions.

Now, as for where I said don't strive against it. Basicly what I mean here is that we don't "fight or struggle by forcable efforts" we don't contend with sin. When a temptation would cross into my head, I do not turn my attnetion to it so that I may qwell every advance it should try to make. I would point to the same verse James 4:7. Submit yourself unto God; resist the devil and he will flee from you. How do you resist the devil? By submitting yourself to God, which must be done by faith. This is exactly what I now experience. Having now the faith to believe what I am told in the word, therefore I submit myself to God by faith. When temptation, whether it by my own lust, the devil, or the world, comes against me, I resist the lies with the truth. And the truth sets you free. So my every victory, I must accredit to God because without the truth of His grace through my faith I would not obtain these victories.

On to your next question. Exactly of far can we go in prayer? Things we need, if truly need without a doubt. Should we depart the most basic forms of common sense to "name it claim it"? Like my sister is sick, and I by faith won't take her to the doctor to get antibiotics when it is within my means. Well, no that is just wrecklessly tempting God. One thing I think the word of faith preachers forget is back in James 4 verse 3, "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." God will not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able. If we are not faithful with the little we have, do we think we would be any more faithful with more? Maybe we ask for all the money you'd ever need, maybe a car, maybe whatever, but are you asking that by the Spirit for the edification of the body of Christ? Or are we simply attempting to use God as a step ladder for our flesh to obtain carnal things? One thing we must remember especially in pray, is that we should not be mindful of these countries in which we dwell. We should seperate ourselves from them. For we seek a better kingdom than they, that is, a heavenly, and because we do so God is not ashamaed to be called our God, for we are the ones for which He prepared a city. Are we praying for things that will we will reap the benefit of in this country, or in the next? Is our focus carnal, or spiritual? If it be spiritual, we having the mind of Christ here is what we are promised. And whatever we ask of Him, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. And again in another place, this is the confidence we have before Him, that whatever we ask according to His will, he heareth us; and we know that if He hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desire of Him.He spoke through the prophets and said you will call unto Me, and you will go and pray unto Me, and I will hearken unto you. Solomon says, The Lord is far from the wicked: but he hears the prayer of the righteous. And in the Psalms, "The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry." Jesus Himself said, whatever you ask of the Father in my name shall be given to you. So what are the stipulations? First and most importantly, you must be His. And that is keeping His commandments and doing that which is pleasing in His sight by what John said. A person that is after the Spirit will long for this of the Spirit. When he asks for anything it will be to that effect, to that end. This is why it is so important for us to have crcified the old man. Because if we still lived by him, if we still lived without faith in the flesh, we are neither dead nor is our place with God. Because we must be made in the likeness of His death, so that we may also be made in the likeness of His resurrection. But if we are dead with Him, then we also believe that we shall live with Him.

Also, before we ask we must have one thing straight. Ask in faith without doubting. But also, that we are not being double-minded (or having two things in mind. ) ie. serving two masters. God doesn't show favor on disbelief. Thankfully, He has given His grace so that we may overcome it. But don't let that man think he should receive anything from the Lord.

I hope this helps answer your questions, if even just giving to you beginnings of an answer to continue your search. I'm always glad to hear your questions and give you answers when I can. (I'm sure God is all the more :-)