Suicide

[nebula]

OC -

You seemed to indicate some time ago that you had a struggle with suicide?

How about you share your experience as I did?

[Openly Curious]

I did not ask you about the wheat and tares. Stop being evasive if my salvation is secure according to your doctrine then I want to know if I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to heaven? Yes or No

I know - I was answering Butero's post with that - not you.

And I'm not giving you a direct yes or no for the same reason you have not given me a direct yes or no.

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

BTW - are you planning on it?

It does not matter if I am secure according to your doctrine Would I go to heaven? Yes or No

Yes, it does matter.

Do you honestly believe that life is all about getting to Heaven or being sent to Hell?

What does the passage about building on the foundation mean to you?

It's not my job to separate the wheat from the tares!

You totally missed my point. First off, you never answered the first part of my question about what you meant by if you committed suicide, you would go to heaven, but wouldn't hear well done. Are you meaning by that, you would just barely get in? Do you mean you would lose your rewards, or might have a little cabin in the corner of glory as opposed to a mansion in the Father's house?

I don't know about losing what reward I would have potentially had. The Lord didn't show me that far. So how can I answer that?

I only know the vision He gave me. So either you will have to take my word as it, or beleive that the Lord deceived me, or that the vision came from Satan - even though it kept me from killing myself and drew me closer to the Lord!

In regard to my other question, I was speaking directly to you. In other words, based on OSAS doctrine, if a person claims to be a Christian but isn't living right, many will say they were never really saved. To commit suicide is to murder self, something a Christian supposedly wouldn't do. My question is, if you were to do such a thing, wouldn't that be an indication you may never have really been saved, therefore you wouldn't go to heaven? That's what I am asking you. I am not asking you to separate wheat from tares.

Yes, that is separating wheat from tares. The Lord gave us the responsibility to judge fruit, but that's where it ends. It is not in my hands to determine heaven-bound or Hell-bound beyond salvation in Christ - yet even Romans 2 seems to indicate an extended grace for those who never heard the Gospel.

And why should suicide be different from any other temptation a Chrsitian faces? Did you read the links I gave about chronic depression? Really, your question accuses me of having never been a Christian because I had this struggle. That's pretty lame, sir.

So what you are saying is it takes more than abandonment; it takes more than Christ? . . .

You know, it's because of theology like yours that I never went to see a counselor about my struggles.

I haven't rejected abandoning myself to Christ. The counseling books I have read and the counseling sessions I have been to have all been based on Biblical principles.

There's a difference between dishing out general principles, and that of knowing how to directly apply any given principle to a specific situation. To overcome sin, we have to know what specific sins we are committing, right? If I'm insecure, I have to dig down, discover why it is I am insecure, and then deal with that issue - by first taking it to the Lord, of course.

The Bible says to "work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling." This implies active participation. You have to know what to work out in order to work it out, do you not?

For instance, "abandoning myself to Christ" doesn't automatically mean I am going to know how to appropriately deal with anger . . . which I have found has been one of my problems. I first had to accept that it's OK to feel anger (translation: don't beat yourself up for getting angry). I then had to accept that it is not always my fault when someone gets mad at me - so don't beat myslef up when soemone else gets mad at me. And it goes on from there.

ms nebula

I did give you a direct yes or no to your reply and you even acknowledged that answer in post# 193 for the reasons I gave to you at the bottom of post#181 & post 178 which touch on it.

It is not I who am being evasive. Again would you give me a direct answer as I have given the courtesy of my direct reply to others and to you within this thread in the stated post I mentioned. It would speak "volumes" to me of the doctrine you are holding out to others. A simple yes or no will do.

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No

Openly Curious

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to heaven? Yes or No

[Openly Curious]

OC -

You seemed to indicate some time ago that you had a struggle with suicide?

How about you share your experience as I did?

ms nebula,

My gospel is not accepted and has been slandered even being linked by Ovedya as that to the Islamic beliefs and that I was a slick politician. So any gospel or hope that is in the Christ I have so found is not recieved. It will do me no good to continue seeing I am the one who is in the error that is what I am being told. I have so shared my experience with you as you know this quite well. For it will do no good to share with those who are closed minded to share my testimony any longer. And I have given the courtesy of replies so it is I who is waiting.

In your faith would you tell me with a yes or no

If I commited suicide to night Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No

Openly Curious

[~SPIRITBLADE~]

I did not ask you about the wheat and tares. Stop being evasive if my salvation is secure according to your doctrine then I want to know if I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to heaven? Yes or No

I know - I was answering Butero's post with that - not you.

And I'm not giving you a direct yes or no for the same reason you have not given me a direct yes or no.

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

BTW - are you planning on it?

It does not matter if I am secure according to your doctrine Would I go to heaven? Yes or No

Yes, it does matter.

Do you honestly believe that life is all about getting to Heaven or being sent to Hell?

What does the passage about building on the foundation mean to you?

It's not my job to separate the wheat from the tares!

You totally missed my point. First off, you never answered the first part of my question about what you meant by if you committed suicide, you would go to heaven, but wouldn't hear well done. Are you meaning by that, you would just barely get in? Do you mean you would lose your rewards, or might have a little cabin in the corner of glory as opposed to a mansion in the Father's house?

I don't know about losing what reward I would have potentially had. The Lord didn't show me that far. So how can I answer that?

I only know the vision He gave me. So either you will have to take my word as it, or beleive that the Lord deceived me, or that the vision came from Satan - even though it kept me from killing myself and drew me closer to the Lord!

In regard to my other question, I was speaking directly to you. In other words, based on OSAS doctrine, if a person claims to be a Christian but isn't living right, many will say they were never really saved. To commit suicide is to murder self, something a Christian supposedly wouldn't do. My question is, if you were to do such a thing, wouldn't that be an indication you may never have really been saved, therefore you wouldn't go to heaven? That's what I am asking you. I am not asking you to separate wheat from tares.

Yes, that is separating wheat from tares. The Lord gave us the responsibility to judge fruit, but that's where it ends. It is not in my hands to determine heaven-bound or Hell-bound beyond salvation in Christ - yet even Romans 2 seems to indicate an extended grace for those who never heard the Gospel.

And why should suicide be different from any other temptation a Chrsitian faces? Did you read the links I gave about chronic depression? Really, your question accuses me of having never been a Christian because I had this struggle. That's pretty lame, sir.

So what you are saying is it takes more than abandonment; it takes more than Christ? . . .

You know, it's because of theology like yours that I never went to see a counselor about my struggles.

I haven't rejected abandoning myself to Christ. The counseling books I have read and the counseling sessions I have been to have all been based on Biblical principles.

There's a difference between dishing out general principles, and that of knowing how to directly apply any given principle to a specific situation. To overcome sin, we have to know what specific sins we are committing, right? If I'm insecure, I have to dig down, discover why it is I am insecure, and then deal with that issue - by first taking it to the Lord, of course.

The Bible says to "work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling." This implies active participation. You have to know what to work out in order to work it out, do you not?

For instance, "abandoning myself to Christ" doesn't automatically mean I am going to know how to appropriately deal with anger . . . which I have found has been one of my problems. I first had to accept that it's OK to feel anger (translation: don't beat yourself up for getting angry). I then had to accept that it is not always my fault when someone gets mad at me - so don't beat myslef up when soemone else gets mad at me. And it goes on from there.

ms nebula

I did give you a direct yes or no to your reply and you even acknowledged that answer in post# 193 for the reasons I gave to you at the bottom of post#181 & post 178 which touch on it.

It is not I who am being evasive. Again would you give me a direct answer as I have given the courtesy of my direct reply to others and to you within this thread in the stated post I mentioned. It would speak "volumes" to me of the doctrine you are holding out to others. A simple yes or no will do.

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No

Openly Curious

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to heaven? Yes or No

based on what God has said, 'NO'

[nebula]

Post 193 was my post.

Post 181 has no direct yes or no.

Post 178 . . . ? You honestly expect someone be able to read that?

Do you honestly believe the man in question would end up in Hell?

It sounds to me like you believe our lives are on the edge of Heaven or Hell every second, and one moment of weakness, one failure, one wrong choice, one ability to not forgive in two seconds of the offense can rob you of your salvation.

What kind of Christian faith is that?

ARe you so perfected that you don't commit a single sin anymore? Are you so strong that you don't do anything wrong at any time?

How can I answer your question when this is what you believe?

My goodness, I'd be living in 24/7 fear if that is what I believed!

[Openly Curious]

This thread is like a cracked gramaphone record....Just keeps going around and around.

Some say if you sommit suicide you will lose your redemption and some say you won't. I say none of you know for sure, so why don't you turn the light off and go to sleep,because you will know for sure, if you do take your own life, which way you'll go.

G'nite all,

ps. New pilgrim is as close as you will get to the answer, IMO.

eric

Then NewPilgrim should along with you in your faith be able to give me a directly yes or no to my question in defense of your faith. Seeing I am the one in error around here.

So I will ask this question of you and your faith.

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or NO

Openly Curious

[~SPIRITBLADE~]

This thread is like a cracked gramaphone record....Just keeps going around and around.

Some say if you sommit suicide you will lose your redemption and some say you won't. I say none of you know for sure, so why don't you turn the light off and go to sleep,because you will know for sure, if you do take your own life, which way you'll go.

G'nite all,

ps. New pilgrim is as close as you will get to the answer, IMO.

eric

Then NewPilgrim should along with you in your faith be able to give me a directly yes or no to my question in defense of your faith. Seeing I am the one in error around here.

So I will ask this question of you and your faith.

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or NO

Openly Curious

'No' (direct enuff-?)

[Openly Curious]

OC - I'm particularaly interested to hear your rebuttal of my suggestion that to follow your "unconfessed sin" philosophy would require for Jesus to crucify himself daily and put him to open shame each time we make such a confession.

I'd also like to hear your thoughts on my suggestion that if you disagree with the above, then Jesus sacrifice must indeed be a "once for all" sacrifice, in which case the offering has been made and the sin is covered.

NewPilgrim

Again and don't be evasive for I am waiting on your reply seeing my doctrine is incorrect by you.

If I was to commit suicide tonight would I go to Heaven? Yes or NO

Openly Curious

[Ovedya]

Samson layed down his life for the children of Israel in destroying their enemies as scriptures tell us he killed more in his death than when he was alive. Samson was the man God raised up to deliver his people. And destroying their enemies brought their freedom.

Hmmm....So then I guess suicide is not a sin if it saves a group of people or if it destroys your enemy? That sounds awfully Islamic to me.

Actually what you wrote is not true at all. In fact, if you had bothered to read the verses from Judges 16 you would have seen that Samson had, in fact, planned to take his own life and that of the Philistines who had captured him. He requested the his hands be placed upon the two supporting pillars of the house, and then prayed to God to give him strength to avenge his own shame at the hands of the Philistines. Isreal was neither delivered by Samson's act, nor were they freed from their enemies.

Now consider Hebrews 11:32-34 where Samson is mentioned among the great men of faith, where the writer says that he, among others, through faith, "overcame kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong in weakness, became mighty in war, routed the armies of foreigners."

And answer: Is Samson in hell because he committed suicide? Or does God provide a special place in heaven for those who intentionally kill themselves along with their enemies?

Ovedya

As long as you promote the "secured" doctrine to me you are still suggesting to me--go ahead and and commit suicide and God will be pleased with me and one day will say to me "Well done thou good and faithful servant.

And I do not accept it

Openly Curious

That is not a response to my addressing of the serious flaws in your theology.

Security does not grant license to disobedience. That is the largest strawman constructed by the opponents of the security doctrine.

Address the points.

ovedya,

Even if you say I have serious flaws within what I have already spoken on in post 181 & 187 your secured doctrine is still suggesting to me--go ahead and commit suicide for God is pleased with me and will say to me "Well done thou good and faithful servant" And I do not accept it.

It is you who are saying I am secure.

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to heaven?

Yes or No

Openly Curious

Nice try turning the tables like that. But you STILL have to clear up the issue about Samson.

[~SPIRITBLADE~]

OC - I'm particularaly interested to hear your rebuttal of my suggestion that to follow your "unconfessed sin" philosophy would require for Jesus to crucify himself daily and put him to open shame each time we make such a confession.

I'd also like to hear your thoughts on my suggestion that if you disagree with the above, then Jesus sacrifice must indeed be a "once for all" sacrifice, in which case the offering has been made and the sin is covered.

NewPilgrim

Again and don't be evasive for I am waiting on your reply seeing my doctrine is incorrect by you.

If I was to commit suicide tonight would I go to Heaven? Yes or NO

Openly Curious

the Messiah Sacrafice, 'covered' NO SIN. (that was animal-blood sacrifice)

The Messiah WASHES AWAY sin, (huge diff)