Suicide

[Openly Curious]

BTW, OC -

You never directly answered yes or not about the man dying in the car crash. I assumed you to be saying that he would go to Hell, but you never affirmed nor denied that.

In those other posts you referred to, I never saw a, "Yes, he would go to Hell," or "No, he would not go to Hell."

So your insistance of my giving a clear direct yes or no is quite hypocritical.

ms nebula

It doesn't matter what I think of that now for remember I am not right doctrinally. If the truth shall set you free then I ask this truth from you and you should be able to give me a hope of your gospel that is within you. I have already shared many things with you and others in this thread giving you the hope that I had but it was attacked and not accepted as truth. So in this regard I am asking of the hope that is within you. It is the truth I seek that will set me free yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or No

Openly Curious

[nebula]

Look, OC -

Since you stated that you gave a clear yes or no to the questions asked you "in post 178", I bring back Post 178. Would you please show me in here exactly where this "clear" answer of yours is - for I cannot find it!

Is there room at that brick wall for one more?

Openly Curious

If not I'm sure that while in someone's daze you can use their spot.

NewPigrim

OC, please answer Tess's questions> And again I would ask that you keep waffle to a minimum, please be pertinant in your answers, theyre simple enough questions:

Openly Curious,

I believe I did answer all of Tess's questions.

NewPigrim

*Quote* My question: at what point do you consider a person saved? Do you believe that upon salvation, a person's spiritual identity is changed? Are only the sins which have been committed up to that point forgiven and no others?

Openly Curious,

God considers a person saved. When they acknowledge their need of salvation and at that time of acknowledgement which only comes from our condemning hearts before Him. One must use the measure of faith that God has dealt to every person and respond to the gospel message by faith. As one by faith comes to Christ and accepts the work that Christ did at the cross for them personally being the death, burial, and ressurrection. Then that after accepting the truth of the work of the cross in their heart they then have to make a public or outward confession of their acknowledgment of that truth. Then at that point they are saved through faith and receive the grace of God his unmerited favor in the measure they needed from God to cover and erase all "past sins".

Luke 7:47--12:42--48

To him that hath been forgiven much much is required of them than those have been forgiven little little is required.

This verse shows at the time of salvation some folks have more sins that they have commited in life than others and more will be required of them because the measure of grace was more given to them. The apostle Paul was a prime example of this grace in abundance that he received from the Lord.

Luke 7:47--"Wherefore, I say unto thee. Her sins which are many are forgiven for she loved much but to whom little is forgiven the same loveth little.

Luke 12:42-48--"And the Lord said Who then is that faithful and wise steward whom his lord shall make ruler over his household to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. ** "But" and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens and to eat and drink and to drunken.

The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for Him and at an hour when he is not aware **and will cut him asunder and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers** And that servant which **knew his Lord's will and prepared not himself neither did according to his will **shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes**For unto whomsoever much is given of him shall be much required and to whom men have committed much of him they will ask the more"

NewPigrim

Secondly:

*Quote* No, Commit suicide--death--no breath--no forgiveness--no grace--no hope--die in their sins--condemned.

Quit flogging a dead horse brother. Any way you write it, this IS conditional salvation. By what ever reasoning, you say God CANNOT and/or WILL NOT forgive unconfessed sin and this will condemn you.

You are peddling conditional salvation, which you put most eloquently in this posting:

*Quote* It is our responsibility to "retain" it and this is godly counsel all the way. Unfortunately some will choose not to come back and choose to stay in their sins instead.

You're so inline with conditional security doctrine that I despair at how you claim not to recognise it

Openly Curious

I believe in the truths that are found within both sides of the coin. Each group has truth and also errors on their side. And maybe I started a brand new group but that is how I see it I don't fit into either one of these groups totally or fully. I guess I"ll call this new group that I fit into "Conditionally Freed And Secured" (CFS).

NewPigrim

OC, may I suggest that you are so pressed for time because you STILL waste an awful lot of it by eloquently dodging questions and wandering off into irrelevant topics.

Openly Curious,

I would give thee counsel to go get some relaxation on your part and take a chill pill as they are saying now today because your anger towards me is manifesting itself within your speech and I think it will do you well to take time to yourself and relax a little. I have been answering all of your questions which are many and it just takes time I am sorry I am not speedy Gonzales but I to the best of my ability have been answering your questions.

NewPigrim

Thankyou for finally at least attempting to provide "clear scripture" but the two passages you cited are sadly inadequate for upholding your views on unconfessed sin, as neither of them actually address it!! not once is uncofessed sin leading to condemnation mentioned in either passage.

Openly Curious

The passage in 1 John did it not say anything at all about "sins" that condemned our hearts before God taking our confidence away from us towards God. And when we confess our hearts don't condemn us before God any more and because of it we have confidence with God once again and can pray and he will hear us and give us the things he asked."

Well I believe it did address the issue of uncofessed sin even if you want to evade that passage of text. Also within another post within this same thread I even to the time to share in detail for someone about these very scriptures. And they are my views by my views have been formed from the things taught with the scriptures towards unconfessed sin. You can deny that the bible does not address this issue but that is your wilfull choice.

NewPigrim

Its telling however that you first misinterpreted the parable of the true vine which refers to people who walk and talk and act like christians but do not have the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the seal and guarantee (Eph 1:13) of our salvation, rather they are people who take on the traditions and work of the christian church, but do not have an intimate relationship with Jesus, they are not FED by the ROOT of the vine. I've read some of your other scriptural interpretations, such as your explanation of 1Cor 15:35-44 which you claimed decribed the difference between angels and men, but in fact is a descriptive of the resurrection body and the indelible connection between the body and the spirit.

Openly Curious

No matter what you say or I believe the parable teaches without doubt the validity to "Stay" in the vine and if one does not they will be cut off cast aside and whither away and die. No matter who you say it is referring to the truth remains "solid"

NewPigrim

Why do you continue your insistance for scriptures on the OSAS debate? I gave you a link to plenty. You can also use the search facility on this site. Theres no need to hijack the thread, stick to the topic.

Openly Curious,

I've heard this hijacking theme of yours for the second time now. How am I hijaking this thread I have been responding to those who are responding to me although I may have overlooked a few but I'm human.

NewPigrim

OSAS is only pertinent to this topic inso much as your belief in sin and confession provides a view of salvation which is conditional to having every sin covered by confessing it to God, so that a genuine and faithful believer in Jesus who's life is dedicated to his gospel and his works can be sent to eternal condemnation simply because he swore when he saw the truck that hit him a split second later. There can only be the conditional or the unconditional, there is no such thing as "Neo-semi-unconditionality"

I have a serious question for you:

As a believer, when we confess our sins to God, what makes that confession acceptable to him and by what means is his forgiveness of that sin made possible?

Openly Curious,

Every person has their own consciousness towards God that being the case if someone does something that is wrong in their own consciousness that they know is displeasing in God's sight then their own hearts will in fact condemn them before God if they try to approach him their hearts condemns for the wrong they have done.

It is when we violate our own consciousness that we sin and we our own conscious condemns us we have to confess our faults to God and in this obedience to God will grant his fogiveness once again just like he did when we got saved. And God is well pleased as the blood is still sufficient for our sins. Once this happens a believers conscious is clear towards God and can approach God in confidence without their hearts condemning them and ask what they will and he heareth them.

I cannot tell what will violate your conscious or others consciouseness because that is your personal relationship with God and you have to walk according to your own consciousness within this realm. But one can go to bed every night in peace with God if they keep their conscious clean before God. God is well pleased with this and will accept them and grant his forgivesness if they are faithful to confess their faults before him.

NewPigrim

It seems to me in your view of things that is what you got a quick fix one time at an altar one day in your past and don't need God anymore for anything because you got it all right then and there.......Where is your scriptures to back up your view.

At an altar? God is beyond the walls of a church. As is the case with many who share similar views to you, you completely misunderstand and misrepresent the motivations and beliefs of those who know that their salvation is secure. Unconditional sacrifice breeds unconditional gratitude, love and dedication.

Openly Curious

I have pondered on this but do not really quite understand what it is you are trying to get across to me here if you could elaborate a little more it would help me greatly. But I do not see how I am misrepresenting the motivations of others nor their beliefs I go on what they tell me what else can I go on. It is not I who is representing any one but myself it is others responsibility to represent their own motives and beliefs not mine.

I do not undermine nor will I undermine the love in which one has for the work of God and toward the Lord Jesus Christ I for I have great respect and esteem them highly in the Lord if fact. But that doesn't mean they do not have error in the things they say which is what I address. No different from you in this matter for isn't it you who have wrote me all these things to respond to.

NewPigrim

For the benefit of the hard of hearing: The verses you ask for are in THIS THREAD! - as I previously pointed out to you, and which you quoted back to me, by the way - "La la la la laaaaaa!"

but let me make it easy for you, after all why should you make any effort when you can just ignore evryone thats right here?

Openly Curious,

Again how am I ignoring everyone

NewPigrim

Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He HAS [-Accomplished! Completed!] perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

I would have thought this passage alone should be enough for you, however:

Openly Curious,

The sacrifice that Jesus made which was his own body was sacrificed once and for all never to be done again it was finished this is not referring to us nor our sins but His body. Jesus is our High priest now as the high priest are no longer needed that worked in the temple preparing and making the blood sacrifices of the animals for the atonement of the people. Jesus is our high priest in heaven and is so ministering on our behalf making intercession for us as he reminds the Father of the great sacrifice in made on behalf of mankind. As the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat in the tabernacle of heaven. This verse is only in reference to Jesus's body being sacrificed once and not refering to our sins.

Although I know the blood covers and washes away our sins as we confess them.

NewPigrim

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who* is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Openly Curious,

At the time of salvation of past sins erased your "body" has been marked to go up in the time of the resurrection as you were purchased or bought back by the ransom that was paid for you your "body" was purchased as it belongs to God now.

It is the earnest of our inheritance because when we die we have the assurance that we will be joined with our bodies once again and also not us but our saved loved ones again we will get to see them again.

For the scriptures says in Ephesians 1:14 it is the "earnest of our inheritance" not the guarantee of it as you have misrepresented this verse to say.

New Pigrim

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, *as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

Openly Curious,

As long as we "stay" with Christ as Jesus said, "if you love me keep my commandments" this is true. If we walk in obedience to the Lord's will pleasing in His sight our conscious not condemning us before Him and loving Him then nothing shall seperate us from the love of God as nothing can. But if we choose of our own free will to leave His side then that is the other side of the coin. One can leave his hand and go back out in sin.

NewPigrim

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Openly Curius,

The key is we as christians have to come to God in our times of need. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteous for they shall be filled. Seek ye first his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.

NewPigrim

Thats your started for ten. Now lets move on from OSAS, please. If you want to debate it more, go to one of the many dozens of OSAS threads already in place at Worthy.

Again where is your scriptures that says "Christ is not Sufficient" to supply all our need according to his riches in glory.

Thats rich! My councilling protests the very idea. Neither death, life, angels, principalities, powers, things present or THINGS TO COME shall be able to separate us from the Love of God. And yes, that would include the suicide of a believer, he has that covered to. How strange that I should believe that Christs sacrificial death and his resurrection should be sufficient even for our own failings in DEATH as well as life.

Your doctrine protests that Christs sacrifice is NOT sufficient to cover any "unconfessed" sin, neither is it sufficient to maintain the salvation of the believer which is granted through their belief in his complete and COMPLETED sacrifice

Openly Curious,

My doctrine shows and tells that staying in "Christ" there is abundance apart from him we have nothing and that is grace is sufficient to meet all our needs according to his riches in glory.

NewPigrim

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Openly Curious

Salvation is in fact a free gift from God as no one can do anything to earn it they have to simply by faith recieve.

That one decision changes us As nobody can go forward in they do not make a decision. And that one decision causes us to go forward in our walk with Christ.

Matt 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

NewPigrim

And you don't have to apologize for your rebuke I know from firsthand along with rebuke there is good counsel and bad counsel. And just because one flies off the handle it doesn't mean everything is true.

Write me off if you like, but by the same token you stated, neither does it mean that my rebuke is unwarranted. Your argument here is circular.

Openly Curious

I think I see circles also

NewPigrim

Openly Curious

I have not alluded to any idea of what your thoughts are on suicide are this is the first time I've heard of them glad to know what they are.

From Post *40, Author:Openly Curious

In your view of looking at things it's almost like your saying go ahead and jump there is nothing you have to loose it's all secure. Well what if it is all secure as you say it is how does it save the persons life here on earth that is in distress.

looks like a strong allusion to me.

Openly Curious

Talk about me being evasive and not answering questions. I will ask it once again How does it save the person life here while they are still alive and in distress. I'm waiting I'm waiting I'm waiting

New Pigrim,

So in your sympathy for these in this situation your encouragement would be just don't do it cause alot of people love you and don't want you to die because it will break our hearts to see you go. And God's heart would be broken also, and he knows your sufferings "But" he wants you to live, be healed, then share all your wisdom with us and spread God's love through your experience.

Almost sounds like a quick fix to me.

Nebula said that didn't work for Him.

Sounds to me like a whole-life plan based on a love for a sovereign God.

Didn't work for Nebula? - My goodness, for a dead-woman she's a very active writer. Did you even read her testimony? it seems only curteous since you took credit for a lot of what she said. Quotes from Neb:

A person wanting to end their life needs love, not theology. The person needs to feel the presence of God, not be told how bad a sinner he is.

Someone lost in suicidal desires needs to know that they are understood. What I would have given for someone to just cry with me for a change. Do you have any idea how that would have ministered to my pain?

That's what pulled me out - loving God more than I hated myself. I'm working on the hating myself part - but only because I believe in my heart that this is what God wants me to do, not because I have any desire to feel better about myself.

No-one who believed their salvation was conditional would be able to speak such words.

Openly Curious,

I never condemned nebula not once that is a lie I shared the hope of Christ with Nebula. We don't agree doctrinally with one another as we discovered between us but that does not mean I condemned Nebula. I even wished Nebula well in several of my posts. But it was apparent to me that the scriptures that another believer would want to share in love with them in hopes it would help in some way giving him instruction in righteousness did not help them. Sure Christ helped Nebula from killing his self but the gospel instructions given in the word that is profitable for doctrine reproof correction and so on in righteous living Well Nebula said it didn't work because what he was suffering from was an illness chronic depression.

2 Peter 2:20--"For if after they have escaped the pollutuins of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ they are "again" entangled therein and overcome the latter end is worse with them than the beginning For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb The dog is turned to his own vomit again and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This passage teaches that christians can get entangled in sin again in life and be overtaken by the devil taken captive by him once again in our faults or sins and if one does not once again come to christ and confess those sins that have overtaken their lives then the latter end of that beliver will be worse than their beginning and it would have been better for them if they wouldn't even repented than to return to their sins. And to those who choose to fail to repent of their faults or sins and stay in them not coming faithfully and confessing them to God the punishment will be worse in the end for them than the punishment of one who never repents at all. As it also said in Luke 12:48

In His Stead

Openly Curious

[nebula]

I've re-read the post, and I still don't see the word "yes" or "no".

[Ovedya]

NewPilgrim,

I have so stated within my post to you already that I have the assurance of my salvation by faith and I do not care of your belief about you in where you would go. If it is all under the blood as the gospel you have presented to me and are or have been defending is so thus and you have been fully persuade of then stop being evasive and answer with a yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No

Openly Curious

If you are a blood washed, spirit regenerated believer in teh Lord Jesus Christ, then the answer is no.

You would sleep, and then you would inherit the kingdom of the God at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Oops! have I opened another can of worms? )

Inasmuch as you understand the question, the answer is yes.

Ovedya

I appreciate your humor but I am not asking about the ressurection of the dead nor do I want to get into that can of worms.

Inasmuch as you understand my question in your beliefs a simple yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or no

Openly Curious

Clear as mud?

Good.

You still didn't answer my questionabout Samson directly with a yes or no of your own.

Ovedya

When you give me a clear cut yes or no in your beliefs you have presented to me then maybe we can talk about Samson.

Until then I only await one simple reply from you.

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven

Yes or No

Openly Curious

Oh, brother......Where's that wall?

What you are doing here is a very common avoidance tactic. Frankly it's in poor taste. You can't answer the Samson question because it defies your previous statements about suicide. So you avoid the quesntion entirely by trying to distract it with another issue. Then when it's brought to your attention you attach a condition upon it: I'll answer yours if you answer mine first. It's really very childish.

If you can't answer the question that I asked you yesterday, and prepeated yesterday several times, just tell me that you can't answer it! Stop with all the Red Herrings, for goodness' sake.

Ovedya

It is not childish at all wanting to know the truth in which those have been holding out to me as they have told me I was not right even argued their points in the matter and if I am wrong doctrinally as so many have said. Then it is up to you to persuade me and by answering my question it will speak "volumes" to me in this regards for then I will know you truly do believe the gospel truths of the secure salvation in which you believe and are wanting me to embrace if you do not have this confidence it will also speak "volumes" to me in the positions you hold among others that have been presenting their doctrine to me within this thread. And it is you among others who could stop all the Red Herrings with a simple yes or no

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or No

Openly Curious

A couple of your sentences here are run-ons, and honestly I can't understand what you're trying to say. the only thing that I see is yet another repeated question, which I have already pointed out, is a red herring. Either you can answer the Samson question or you cannot. Which is it? If you can answer it, then answer it. Stop being evasive.

[Ovedya]

I've re-read the post, and I still don't see the word "yes" or "no".

Yeah...I read it twice last night and still didn't see it.

[Openly Curious]

Is this record in a loop?

*--in a loop?

*--n a loop?

*---a loop?

*---loop?

Ovedya,

Are you unsure?

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

I've re-read the post, and I still don't see the word "yes" or "no".

Yeah...I read it twice last night and still didn't see it.

ms nebula

I don't want hypotheticals anymore I'm in need of an answer you can change the record at anytime with a yes or no.

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or No

Openly Curious

[Ovedya]

[traveller]

This is enough. Thankfully, salvation, or the knowledge of someone's heart, is not in our hands.

Let's move on people. There are the lost to find, needy to be helped, and many prayers needing to be said for all kinds of problems. Let's find something that uplifts and encourages, shall we?

Closed.