nebula Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Hello Nebula, I just came across this post while responding to 50CentsDog. That answer you gave kind of confuses me. Are you saying, if you committed suicide, you believe you would go to heaven, but would just get in? I mean, with no rewards? You know how we hear these old songs about being satisfied with a little shack in the corner of glory? Is that how you picture your eternity? My other question is, many times when speaking to those of the OSAS belief, they tell me if a professing Christian is not living right, they were likely never saved. They will say they may have prayed the prayer, but that they were never really born again. Isn't it therefore possible that a person that would commit suicide by your own doctrinal position may never have really been saved, since a true Christian wouldn't commit murder? Just a thought. It's not my job to separate the wheat from the tares! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I replied to all the post you gave and gave answers when it was demanded of me and I want to know from you If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No Openly Curious No, you replied with either something that didn't make sense or with "see this post." You never answered "yes" or "no" - if a man dies in a car crash while angry and bitter at his wife for having been unfaithful to him, would he go to Hell because of that unconfessed unforgiveness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 24, 2006 If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? BTW - are you planning on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2006 Hello Nebula, I just came across this post while responding to 50CentsDog. That answer you gave kind of confuses me. Are you saying, if you committed suicide, you believe you would go to heaven, but would just get in? I mean, with no rewards? You know how we hear these old songs about being satisfied with a little shack in the corner of glory? Is that how you picture your eternity? My other question is, many times when speaking to those of the OSAS belief, they tell me if a professing Christian is not living right, they were likely never saved. They will say they may have prayed the prayer, but that they were never really born again. Isn't it therefore possible that a person that would commit suicide by your own doctrinal position may never have really been saved, since a true Christian wouldn't commit murder? Just a thought. It's not my job to separate the wheat from the tares! I did not ask you about the wheat and tares. Stop being evasive if my salvation is secure according to your doctrine then I want to know if I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to heaven? Yes or No Openly Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2006 If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? BTW - are you planning on it? Ms Nebula It does not matter if I am secure according to your doctrine Would I go to heaven? Yes or No Openly Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I want to know if I commited suicide tonight would I go to heaven? Yes or No Would YOU go to heaven? - thats a very good question. Why are you so worried about it anyhow? God loves you doesnt he? I can tell you in surety if I topped myself, I'd go to be with the Lord. I have no plan to do so, but then I have no idea of what lies ahead. Nevertheless, even in my disparity my self-murder would be a sin and an abhorrence to God for which I will be judged, my conscience seered and my pain before him tenfold. Even so, after such self-humiliation, guilt and angst. After my judgement, even if no good works remain, I myself will be saved. No one here is suggesting that suicide is a good or comforting act, I think I can safely say on behalf of the OSAS camp that we do not in any way condone suicide. And frankly your constant misrepresentation of "you say suicide is okay" is rude and embarrasing. Give it up. If your doctrine is rubbish and doesnt hold up under scrutiny then continue to embrace it if you will, but resoring to petty libel on a widespread scale is pretty low. Thanks to Butero for yet another misrepresentation of OSAS mentality from the conditional camp. "We here at OSAS" believe that no mans salvation state can be 100% certified by another man. We can hold it in strong confidence, or we can have some doubt, but ultimately a persons salvtion state is only trully known by that person and God. But what we do proclaim is that to simply say "that a "Christian" jacked in his faith, gave up on God and ended up goin to hell, so obviously salvation is conditional" is dangerous, wreckless and most damningly is an act of judging God by the actions of men. If someone falls away from the church and goes back to a sinful life, there is indeed a possibility that such a one has not been born again, but conversley those who have been born again are want to stray also at times, which the good book often warns us about and if we do, the earthly consequence is likely to be far worse than if we had never believed to begin with. Certainly an act of suicide is no means for others to Judge whether or not such a person was saved. Strength in God through faith is what enables us to keep from such actions, but even great christians at times have found it hard or incomprehensibke to accept that they could have such faith. Just as I find it incomprehensible that God should love me. Jesus rebuked the apostles for it. They were his right hand men and yet a "faithless and perverse generation". Frankly OC and Butero, your willingness to spread your faithlessness in Gods sovereign rule and the totality of the sacrifice of Jesus and your actions which undermine the faith and hope of others should be enough to drive anyone to the brink of suicide. Your message is ultimately one of unsuredness and futility. Thankfully Gods faith and mercy is on us all and I'm comforted to know that not even the foul stench and poison of your doctrine will ever overpower the work of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 OC - I'm particularaly interested to hear your rebuttal of my suggestion that to follow your "unconfessed sin" philosophy would require for Jesus to crucify himself daily and put him to open shame each time we make such a confession. I'd also like to hear your thoughts on my suggestion that if you disagree with the above, then Jesus sacrifice must indeed be a "once for all" sacrifice, in which case the offering has been made and the sin is covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted March 24, 2006 This thread is like a cracked gramaphone record....Just keeps going around and around. Some say if you sommit suicide you will lose your redemption and some say you won't. I say none of you know for sure, so why don't you turn the light off and go to sleep,because you will know for sure, if you do take your own life, which way you'll go. G'nite all, ps. New pilgrim is as close as you will get to the answer, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I did not ask you about the wheat and tares. Stop being evasive if my salvation is secure according to your doctrine then I want to know if I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to heaven? Yes or No I know - I was answering Butero's post with that - not you. And I'm not giving you a direct yes or no for the same reason you have not given me a direct yes or no. If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? BTW - are you planning on it? It does not matter if I am secure according to your doctrine Would I go to heaven? Yes or No Yes, it does matter. Do you honestly believe that life is all about getting to Heaven or being sent to Hell? What does the passage about building on the foundation mean to you? It's not my job to separate the wheat from the tares! You totally missed my point. First off, you never answered the first part of my question about what you meant by if you committed suicide, you would go to heaven, but wouldn't hear well done. Are you meaning by that, you would just barely get in? Do you mean you would lose your rewards, or might have a little cabin in the corner of glory as opposed to a mansion in the Father's house? I don't know about losing what reward I would have potentially had. The Lord didn't show me that far. So how can I answer that? I only know the vision He gave me. So either you will have to take my word as it, or beleive that the Lord deceived me, or that the vision came from Satan - even though it kept me from killing myself and drew me closer to the Lord! In regard to my other question, I was speaking directly to you. In other words, based on OSAS doctrine, if a person claims to be a Christian but isn't living right, many will say they were never really saved. To commit suicide is to murder self, something a Christian supposedly wouldn't do. My question is, if you were to do such a thing, wouldn't that be an indication you may never have really been saved, therefore you wouldn't go to heaven? That's what I am asking you. I am not asking you to separate wheat from tares. Yes, that is separating wheat from tares. The Lord gave us the responsibility to judge fruit, but that's where it ends. It is not in my hands to determine heaven-bound or Hell-bound beyond salvation in Christ - yet even Romans 2 seems to indicate an extended grace for those who never heard the Gospel. And why should suicide be different from any other temptation a Chrsitian faces? Did you read the links I gave about chronic depression? Really, your question accuses me of having never been a Christian because I had this struggle. That's pretty lame, sir. So what you are saying is it takes more than abandonment; it takes more than Christ? . . . You know, it's because of theology like yours that I never went to see a counselor about my struggles. I haven't rejected abandoning myself to Christ. The counseling books I have read and the counseling sessions I have been to have all been based on Biblical principles. There's a difference between dishing out general principles, and that of knowing how to directly apply any given principle to a specific situation. To overcome sin, we have to know what specific sins we are committing, right? If I'm insecure, I have to dig down, discover why it is I am insecure, and then deal with that issue - by first taking it to the Lord, of course. The Bible says to "work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling." This implies active participation. You have to know what to work out in order to work it out, do you not? For instance, "abandoning myself to Christ" doesn't automatically mean I am going to know how to appropriately deal with anger . . . which I have found has been one of my problems. I first had to accept that it's OK to feel anger (translation: don't beat yourself up for getting angry). I then had to accept that it is not always my fault when someone gets mad at me - so don't beat myslef up when soemone else gets mad at me. And it goes on from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2006 I want to know if I commited suicide tonight would I go to heaven? Yes or No Would YOU go to heaven? - thats a very good question. Why are you so worried about it anyhow? God loves you doesnt he? I can tell you in surety if I topped myself, I'd go to be with the Lord. I have no plan to do so, but then I have no idea of what lies ahead. Nevertheless, even in my disparity my self-murder would be a sin and an abhorrence to God for which I will be judged, my conscience seered and my pain before him tenfold. Even so, after such self-humiliation, guilt and angst. After my judgement, even if no good works remain, I myself will be saved. No one here is suggesting that suicide is a good or comforting act, I think I can safely say on behalf of the OSAS camp that we do not in any way condone suicide. And frankly your constant misrepresentation of "you say suicide is okay" is rude and embarrasing. Give it up. If your doctrine is rubbish and doesnt hold up under scrutiny then continue to embrace it if you will, but resoring to petty libel on a widespread scale is pretty low. Thanks to Butero for yet another misrepresentation of OSAS mentality from the conditional camp. "We here at OSAS" believe that no mans salvation state can be 100% certified by another man. We can hold it in strong confidence, or we can have some doubt, but ultimately a persons salvtion state is only trully known by that person and God. But what we do proclaim is that to simply say "that a "Christian" jacked in his faith, gave up on God and ended up goin to hell, so obviously salvation is conditional" is dangerous, wreckless and most damningly is an act of judging God by the actions of men. If someone falls away from the church and goes back to a sinful life, there is indeed a possibility that such a one has not been born again, but conversley those who have been born again are want to stray also at times, which the good book often warns us about and if we do, the earthly consequence is likely to be far worse than if we had never believed to begin with. Certainly an act of suicide is no means for others to Judge whether or not such a person was saved. Strength in God through faith is what enables us to keep from such actions, but even great christians at times have found it hard or incomprehensibke to accept that they could have such faith. Just as I find it incomprehensible that God should love me. Jesus rebuked the apostles for it. They were his right hand men and yet a "faithless and perverse generation". Frankly OC and Butero, your willingness to spread your faithlessness in Gods sovereign rule and the totality of the sacrifice of Jesus and your actions which undermine the faith and hope of others should be enough to drive anyone to the brink of suicide. Your message is ultimately one of unsuredness and futility. Thankfully Gods faith and mercy is on us all and I'm comforted to know that not even the foul stench and poison of your doctrine will ever overpower the work of the Lord. NewPilgrim Could you tell me and not be evasive as you have been telling me I am the one in error. So nothing I say has any validity and Ovedya even referred to the things I had to say as being the Islamic beliefs. So if you want to stand up for your beliefs and give a "defense" of the gospel in which you are holding out to others it would speak "volumes" to me if you would answer my question with a simple yes or no? If I get all the "grace" one time at an altar as your doctrine teaches. And I have "assurance" from then on which is what your doctrines teaches as it is all under the blood past present and future sins. Then if I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No Openly Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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