Is John still alive?

[Sterling]

You must read this with chap 17. That last pharse coming in His kingdom, also translates appear in His royalty of which Peter, James, and John did witness.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Keep it simple.

If this is true then who standing there did taste death before his transfiguration? Also, what was the rewarding of everyman according to his works that took place?

Edited April 5, 2006 by Sterling

[rollinTHUNDER]

John 21:21 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; he was the one who had reclined next to Jesus at the supper and had said,

[Sterling]

I hope this helps

Not really actually. I liked your response regarding tasting death meaning spritually and not physically. That position could hold some fruit. But is God the author of confusion? He let the disciples be decieved by Christ in order to be better witnesses? In which way did this make them better witnesses and not just the perpetuaters of a false hope? Do you think they would have become lax in their ministries if they thought they wouldn't live to see the prohecies come to pass? Did Peter? He knew he wouldn't survive that long but the Spirit led him where he didn't want to go. Not only that but how has watching for the last 2000 years done anyone any good. I'd say it's done quite a bit of damage. The Holocaust for example. Hitler believed he was doing God's work by persecuting the Jews.

[sheya joie]

Some thoughts I have had regarding this verse:

Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Is it possible that seeing the Son of man coming in his kingdom was fulfilled when John saw the LORD's return in the vision on Patmos? Or could this have been fulfilled by the disciples seeing the risen LORD and shortly afterwards receiving power from on high at Pentecost?

Any ideas on that?

[rollinTHUNDER]

I hope this helps

But is God the author of confusion? He let the disciples be decieved by Christ in order to be better witnesses? In which way did this make them better witnesses and not just the perpetuaters of a false hope? Do you think they would have become lax in their ministries if they thought they wouldn't live to see the prohecies come to pass? Did Peter? He knew he wouldn't survive that long but the Spirit led him where he didn't want to go. Not only that but how has watching for the last 2000 years done anyone any good. I'd say it's done quite a bit of damage. The Holocaust for example. Hitler believed he was doing God's work by persecuting the Jews.

Look dude, I was merely trying to help you grasp this a little better, only to have you start accusing me of something I didn't do. Who said that Christ deceived them? Who said God confused them? The truth was simply hidden from them at that time, until after Christ had acended, and this can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

No wonder you are unable to understand.

This makes me wonder why I even bother with people like you.

SHEEEESH

[Sterling]

Wow, didn't mean for you to take such offence. What exactly did I say that came across as an accusation?

If Christ said things to the apostles that led them to believe something that Christ knew was untrue, then he was deceiving them. That doesn't seem like a stretch to me. You can word it colourfully if you'd like to try to make it sound better but he didn't just fail to address their ignorance because it was convinient for His purpose. He said things to them knowing they would take them in a certain way. How is that not deceiving? You can split the hairs all you like but God doesn't lie to His people.

If you have no logical response feel free to get emotional again. That is what people tend to do when they've run out of things to say.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Sterling

[rollinTHUNDER]

Wow, didn't mean for you to take such offence. What exactly did I say that came across as an accusation?

"But is God the author of confusion? He let the disciples be decieved by Christ in order to be better witnesses? In which way did this make them better witnesses and not just the perpetuaters of a false hope?"

If Christ said things to the apostles that led them to believe something that Christ knew was untrue, then he was deceiving them. That doesn't seem like a stretch to me. You can word it colourfully if you'd like to try to make it sound better but he didn't just fail to address their ignorance because it was convinient for His purpose. He said things to them knowing they would take them in a certain way. How is that not deceiving? You can split the hairs all you like but God doesn't lie to His people.

It appears that you are the one accusing Christ of being a deceiver, but in all actuality, He told them truth that could only be discerned spiritually, knowing full well that they wouldn't understand it when He told them, but that they would understand it later, after they received the Holy Spirit, who guides men into all truth.

If you have no logical response feel free to get emotional again. That is what people tend to do when they've run out of things to say.

Logical response? Logic = common sense and/or worldly wisdom, which is exactly what the disciples were using before they received the Holy Spirit. If you are trying to understand these spiritual things with your human logic, no wonder you think Christ was a deceiver. Without the Spirit, you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.

As I said before, it can be proven very easily with scripture. Here's a few you might want to chew on:

Luke 9:45

But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

John 12:16

At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 13:7

Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

Luke 18:34

The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

Luke 24:45

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Matthew 16:9

Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?

Matthew 16:11

How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

Mark 4:13

Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?

Mark 4:33

With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand.

Mark 8:21

He said to them, "Do you still not understand?"

Mark 9:32

But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.

Luke 2:50

But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

John 8:27

They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

John 10:6

Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

John 16:18

They kept asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand what he is saying."

John 20:9

(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Ephesians 5:17

Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

2 Peter 2:12

But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

2 Peter 3:3

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:16

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

[Sterling]

Granted. However, after the apostles recieved the Holy Spirit they still seemed to believe that Christ was coming right back. They use phrases like "at hand" refering to His coming;

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us 0 therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

"At hand" means within reach. What part of 2000 years is within reach to the people these books were written to? Other times the phrase was used it had nearly immediate consequence;

Gen 27:41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

Deu 32:35 To me [belongeth] vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Or if you'd like some more recent examples;

Mar 14:42 Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.

Jhn 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

I'm not actually asserting that Christ was a liar or a perpetuator of false promises. What I'm trying to get out of someone is how these scriptures are rectified with your 2000 years later.

Saying that it isn't to be understood in the plain language in which it's used but instead requires some version of "faith" that you've decided upon, doesn't take away from the fact that you still haven't told me where or why you take these simple words of Christ and transpose them for millenia and counting.

As a side note; Logic must be used in approaching any and all subjects objectively. God is logical and in fact the source of all logic. Logic is not "common-sense or worldly wisdom" but rather Sense and Wisdom. They come from God.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Greek for "Word" is "Logos" and it is the basis for the english word "logic" so while the world can pervert the words God has given us to use by changing the meaning of words at will ("Gay" for an easy example) it doesn't change the context in which I am trying to use it. I suppose then if I asked for "reason" or some "proof" I would be condemned for my lack of "faith" (in your understanding of the word).

[rollinTHUNDER]

Granted. However, after the apostles recieved the Holy Spirit they still seemed to believe that Christ was coming right back. They use phrases like "at hand" refering to His coming;

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us 0 therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

"At hand" means within reach. What part of 2000 years is within reach to the people these books were written to? Other times the phrase was used it had nearly immediate consequence;

Now you are changing the subject, (death) and the (kingdom) are not used in relation to each other. And neither does the "at hand" issue relate to what you're saying. If Jesus was the Messiah, then obviously the Kingdom was at hand and within reach of everyone that believed in Him.

I'm not actually asserting that Christ was a liar or a perpetuator of false promises. What I'm trying to get out of someone is how these scriptures are rectified with your 2000 years later.

Saying that it isn't to be understood in the plain language in which it's used but instead requires some version of "faith" that you've decided upon, doesn't take away from the fact that you still haven't told me where or why you take these simple words of Christ and transpose them for millenia and counting.

2 Peter 3:3-9

"First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. (4)They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." (5)But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. (6)By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. (7)By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

](8)But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. (9)The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

If you can't appreciate the passage I gave above, you may want to read a thread I wrote last year, which explains the difference between the end and the last days. If so, just click on this link:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=20683

I hope this helps you.

[Sterling]

Do then do you believe Daniel is talking about the End Times and not the Last Days? The angels in Daniel gave specific time time frames. You said in your other post that you were trying to discern how long the gap was. Curious as to what the point of giving a time frame was if the clock was to be stopped indefinately in the 11th hour.

There's a problem with you "day a thousand years, a thousand years a day" theory relating to the 2nd and 3rd day. Most would believe that Christ was talking about His body. You believe there is a double fullfillment of this prophecy, one relating to His body and another relating to His body the church let me ask you where in scripture you draw that from. What other prophecies can you find that have a "double-fullfillment"? The are none and none promised. No other prophecy had more then one fullfillment (save your specultaions regarding the Last Days). Also, one point you seemed unwilling to look at, if what Paul was saying is to be taken literally then you could have it backwards. The 2000 cubits could relate to 2,000,000 years away. Also the 1000 year reign of Christ could be taken to mean a single day in our time.

Also, you took Hebrew 4:7-9 and completely stripped it away from it's audience. That book wasn't written to you, me or anyone else who's to come. It was written to the converted Jews living in Jerusalem. You're making it seem as though this comfort offered wasn't to those people to whom it was written.

What little comfort indeed to say;

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

if their salvation wouldn't come and the night not end for 2000+ years.

I'd be cautious with all that you try to insert into the scripture;

Revelation 22:18 I testify to the one who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

22:19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.