Holy Ghost

[suzanagimpel]

acts 10

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Why people say in the Baptist church that this gifts were only for the early church. This people are still being baptize with the holy gohst 10 years later after the day of pentecost. Who did set up the time that defines EARLY church?

Another thing is that Baptist church says that they spoke a language that other people could hear them speaking in their native tongue glorifying God Acts chapter 2. What is up that with this other verse then.

1COR 14

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

[Trinity]

Well, being raised in a Baptist church when i was young even into my teens i can tell you how they believe pretty well, they don't believe it is all gone, they just don't believe in Speaking in tongues without an interpreter, they reference these verses when talking about Speaking in tongues:

I Cor. 14:6-19

Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?

You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

So know you know why a Baptist doesn't believe in tongues. I am on the edge, i will neither say i believer or disagree, because just because i cannot speak in tongues doesn't mean it is not possible... So you i am drifting on the edge right now

Just so you all know i am not Baptist any more not that it is a bad thing i just decided to leave, i am Christian Missionary Alliance now, they believe more in the power of prayer, not that a Baptist doesn't but the CMA is more in tune with the Holy Spirit as a body of believers...

[David from New Bern]

Raised in the Church of God as a child, I have had an ecstatic experience as a 12 year old that was identified as speaking in tongues, I am seminary trained and ordained Southern Baptist pastor, I still maintain friendships with pastors and laymen across the denominational spectrum. The only reason I mention these factors is so that you understand I am speaking with firsthand experience on both sides of the issue. The book of Acts is a historical book of the progression of the gospel message and the development of the church and its mission. It is not a book of doctrine. The mention of the gift of tongues in the doctrinal references you will notice is highly critical or corrective of the misuse of the gift in the early church. In the early church the gift of tongues was a sign to unbelievers. So it stands to reason that that would stiull be the case today. So, with that in mind can anyone cite a particular case of where they know a person came to know Salvation based on being in the audience of glosalalia? It is also worth noting that "speaking in tongues" can be found in all the denominatons including Catholic. Before you say Praise the Lord, I might mention that it is also present in every major world religion. It seems this mystical element of religious practice is pretty common place in all cultures not just the first century church and the last 100 years since Azusa Street. The 1 Cor 14:2 passage quoted by the OP is Paul commenting on the discerning the real from the counterfeit gibberish of the Pagans

[David from New Bern]

Raised in the Church of God as a child, I have had an ecstatic experience as a 12 year old that was identified as speaking in tongues, I am seminary trained and ordained Southern Baptist pastor, I still maintain friendships with pastors and laymen across the denominational spectrum. The only reason I mention these factors is so that you understand I am speaking with firsthand experience on both sides of the issue. The book of Acts is a historical book of the progression of the gospel message and the development of the church and its mission. It is not a book of doctrine. The mention of the gift of tongues in the doctrinal references you will notice is highly critical or corrective of the misuse of the gift in the early church. In the early church the gift of tongues was a sign to unbelievers. So it stands to reason that that would stiull be the case today. So, with that in mind can anyone cite a particular case of where they know a person came to know Salvation based on being in the audience of glosalalia? It is also worth noting that "speaking in tongues" can be found in all the denominatons including Catholic. Before you say Praise the Lord, I might mention that it is also present in every major world religion. It seems this mystical element of religious practice is pretty common place in all cultures not just the first century church and the last 100 years since Azusa Street. The 1 Cor 14:2 passage quoted by the OP is Paul commenting on the discerning the real from the counterfeit gibberish of the Pagans

That is all well and good to note that speaking in tongues appears in other religions, but as was pointed out by athiests debating the reality of the God of the Bible, so is the doctrine of a triune god and the doctrine of the death and resurrection of pagan gods. Simply the fact that Satan has a counterfeit for the real thing doesn't discount the genuine. One day a counterfeit Christ will come on the scene known in the Bible as the anti-Christ, but that doesn't take away from the reality that Jesus is the true Christ, the Son of the Living God.

As far as whether or not anyone has come to the faith as a result of hearing someone speak in tongues, who knows? Whether or not I know anyone that came to believe that way is irrelivant.

The point is that the proof of authienticity will be found in the people and the spiritual fruit it produces. Being the phenomenon is not isolated to the evangelical experience of some. So testimony of spiritual fruit is a viable question and viable test. Does the Scripture not say to test the Spirits? If you are attending a church that is practicing this with any frequency there should be some fruit to point to right? If it is a sign to unbelievers and the Spirit is involved in it, and the Spirit doesn't fail, then there should be frequent evidence to such practice.

Edited April 12, 2006 by David from New Bern

[Ms Lucy]

acts 10

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Why people say in the Baptist church that this gifts were only for the early church. This people are still being baptize with the holy gohst 10 years later after the day of pentecost. Who did set up the time that defines EARLY church?

Another thing is that Baptist church says that they spoke a language that other people could hear them speaking in their native tongue glorifying God Acts chapter 2. What is up that with this other verse then.

1COR 14

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

[Ms Lucy]

I question this too !

And it's a very confusing topic. The Baptist believe that tongues in the Bible, are a error.

They claim that the Bible came from the regional text : from the greek Bible.

The Greek Bible : say's the word "Lanuages", and not the word Tongues.

What it was explain to me was languages were spoken in different languages of different

nationallys ( like if i spoke in Jewish, or German, and if someone can speak that language they would know what i was saying. Where as someone who did'nt speak that, they would be confused, and would'nt understand. ).

I never seen a greek bible if that was the regional text that was translated for todays Christian Bible. I guess to be a Baptist minister in their schooling this is what they are taught.

And taught to preach to go against it.

Do i believe in tongues yes! is it for today yes ! but i'm not going to debate on it ,

but i found out to be very carefull in judging it. But i love to see a greek bible and see what it say's on this !

All i know their were Jews, Romans, Christians, & greeks, during the time of Christ

over 2000 yrs. ago. All i know is the KJV Bible today was translated from the regional Greek.

So i guess you would have to look at a greek bible, and hopefully you can translate it !

[Leonard]

Well, "Baptist" is a pretty broad stroke! Only some Baptists believe the spiritual gifts have all died out.

This is a novel teaching begun in the 1800's by a Baptist Minister named B. B. Warfield, with his book Counterfeit Miracles (still available), and then popularized by Rev. Darby, and the somewhat dubious C.I. Scofield.... But until around 1815--through all the years of Church History--no one had EVER claimed the gifts had died out.

What? Are we just a little slow on the uptake? "Uh....duh....hey George, did you notice the gifts died out 1800 years ago?"

"Ya' know, Lenny, I hadn't noticed we weren't healing the sick and casting out demons, and prophesying, and speaking in tongues, and working miracles, but now that you mention it, IT HAS BEEN A WHILE......"

How preposterous is THAT scenario? No, historically the gifts have EVER been with the Church.

[Guest yod]

"Uh....duh....hey George, did you notice the gifts died out 1800 years ago?"

"Ya' know, Lenny, I hadn't noticed we weren't healing the sick and casting out demons, and prophesying, and speaking in tongues, and working miracles, but now that you mention it, IT HAS BEEN A WHILE......"

[David from New Bern]

Well, "Baptist" is a pretty broad stroke! Only some Baptists believe the spiritual gifts have all died out.

This is a novel teaching begun in the 1800's by a Baptist Minister named B. B. Warfield, with his book Counterfeit Miracles (still available), and then popularized by Rev. Darby, and the somewhat dubious C.I. Scofield.... But until around 1815--through all the years of Church History--no one had EVER claimed the gifts had died out.

What? Are we just a little slow on the uptake? "Uh....duh....hey George, did you notice the gifts died out 1800 years ago?"

"Ya' know, Lenny, I hadn't noticed we weren't healing the sick and casting out demons, and prophesying, and speaking in tongues, and working miracles, but now that you mention it, IT HAS BEEN A WHILE......"

How preposterous is THAT scenario? No, historically the gifts have EVER been with the Church.

I don't know any Baptist who believe the spiritual gifts have died out, I know many Baptist who believe the purpose of the gift of tongues has served it purpose and is no longer needed on the grand scale. Or more directly, needed in an all English speaking congregation to provide a WOW moment. Jesus never performed a miracle for fanfare but always for spiritual impact. Again, can someone please testify to someone getting saved as a direct result of a language being bridged by a sevice where "speaking in tongues" happened as it did when it happened in ACTS? Why so much emphasis on this minor gift of record. Acts also includes the story of Dorcas being brought back to life, and lame man walking. Where is the happening? And when and if these events were to occur, there would be spiritual fruit. I believe in miracles, I can give personal testimony to several in my life in the last 5 years. And I can point to direct spiritual fruit as a result of these events that can only be attributed to God's hand. I believe that if God needs to revive the gift of tongues to meet a need as a sign to unbelievers again during the church age or the Tribulation, nothing prevents that from happening according to Scripture. I beleive the modern movement that embraces this gift as evidence of the infilling of the Spirit or the sign of God's supernatural presence are subject to being mislead easily. From personal experience, it tends to create division rather than unity in a church. The Devil has a tendency to create spiritual elitism out of its participants. But I can't judge that as Leonard says with such a broad stroke. But it happens with great frequency among those I can observe firsthand.

Edited April 12, 2006 by David from New Bern

[JesusisGod2]

Praise the Lord,

This topic has been hashed out again and again but somehow I never tire of it.

I agree with what Brother David from new bern has said:

It is also worth noting that "speaking in tongues" can be found in all the denominatons including Catholic. Before you say Praise the Lord, I might mention that it is also present in every major world religion. It seems this mystical element of religious practice is pretty common place in all cultures not just the first century church and the last 100 years since Azusa Street. The 1 Cor 14:2 passage quoted by the OP is Paul commenting on the discerning the real from the counterfeit gibberish of the Pagans

Many churches including mine (which I strongly disagree with) teach that speaking in tongues is a sure sign that you have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost or Spirit as I prefer to call Him.

But if we go by this, then we would have to agree that as David has stated above, we would have to acknowledge that Muslims, satanist, and many other religions are also partakers of the Holy Spirit which of course is not true.

I do not believe that any of the gifts have disappeared including tongues however I believe that this is one of the most abused and least understood active today.

I hear people in my church speaking in tongues that sound like this, dah, dah, dah, dah........authentic or not is between them and God but I am certainly not edified by it. I also hear some whom every week say the same thing when they are speaking in tongues, so much so that I can say it myself and I assume that God has a bigger vocabulary than that.

As I said I am not sayiny that these are not geniune, but I can't help but think that some speak and force anything out of their mouth so that they "fit in" and somehow think this is more spiritual, but that is between them and God.

Now I do believe that the gift of speaking in tongues is an authentic gift for todays church, but it is the Spirit that has to be the one that gives the utterance and we need to understand that not all have the wonderful gift and yet most definately have the Holy Spirit.

There are other signs that most who put tongues in the forefront as a sign that they have been filled with the Holy Spirit overlook such as:

Acts 4:

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Here after being baptized or filled by the Holy Spirit, they recieved boldness to speak the Word of God boldly, which if you look at Acts 2 where Peter is explaining to the crowd what has happened, he quotes from the book of Joel which put emphasis on prophecy (speaking the Word of God boldly) and not on tongues as the sign that one has been baptised or filled in the Holy Spirit:

Acts 2

16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,

'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;

AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,

AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,

AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,

I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT

And they shall prophesy.

19 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE

AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,

BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.

20' THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS

AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,

BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.

21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

God mentions that when the Holy Spirit is poured out they will prophecy, it is mentioned twice in the above passage. Now I believe in the gift of tongues, even though I do not speak them, I also find it curious that Peter in quoting Joel does not even mention tongues as the sign that God has poured out His Holy Spirit upon mankind.

(I did speak in tongues only once, years ago as I was driving down a road and talking with God, it was short and I never have again spoke, And I have prayed for them many times and perhaps one day I will recieve them. But if God would have given them to me right away, perhaps I would not have set myself to learn about them more.)

However, not every one recieves this gift of tongues, but every one who calls upon the Name of the Lord in sincerity recieves the Holy Spirit of promise.

As Brother David has pointed out in the following:

The point is that the proof of authienticity will be found in the people and the spiritual fruit it produces. Being the phenomenon is not isolated to the evangelical experience of some. So testimony of spiritual fruit is a viable question and viable test. Does the Scripture not say to test the Spirits? If you are attending a church that is practicing this with any frequency there should be some fruit to point to right? If it is a sign to unbelievers and the Spirit is involved in it, and the Spirit doesn't fail, then there should be frequent evidence to such practice.

I agree with this.

Romans 10:13

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Again I am not sayiny that tongues is not an active gift for the church today, but there are some who do not believe that one has been born again if they do not speak in tongues and we must be careful in this way of thinking.

In Jesus

kevin