Saints in tribulation

[eric]

[Ovedya]

I know there have probably been dozens of posts to WB about the rapture. I have read views of the rapture. Some think it is a hoax and was not a part of discussed theology until the 1800's. There are books out along these lines (i.e. The Rapture Plot). Those who believe rapture doctrine have differing views on when the rapture might occur (pre-, mid-, or post-trib). Many who believe in rapture doctrine think that God would take us away before times get hard on earth and Christians suffer severe persecution. That God would not let us suffer. In the event that we do go thru intense suffering, does this mean we should forsake God? God forbid. I found the following cut & paste on a website and thought it was interesting and something to consider:

Saints in Tribulation

So God won

[Metin]

personally i would love to believe we will be taken up before great tribulation but i cant see it happening and had no idea such a theory existed until recently. i have put a detailed reason why i dont believe we will be raptured until after the great tribulation in the defence of the post trib rapture pinned thread (p44).

[Guest]

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(part of quote snipped for brevity)

There is nowhere in the NT that mentions THE great tribulation. great tribulation occurred in 70AD, but, when Jesus was talking to His disciples, that age never ended until His ascention after his death and I believe that was the start of a new age. That was the start of the new covenant.

I am open to discussion.

eric

Eric,

I looked around to see if anyone addressed this part or your statement, maybe not thoroughly, but, I think it was glossed over. If I missed a post, I apologize for the redundancy.

You are right, the bible does not use the phrase "The Great Tribulation" that is what we call "the tribulation" that Jesus spoke of. There is good reason, for it is The Great Tribulation, since jesus said of it:

"for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall."

The fact that it would be such as has not occurred nor never will, makes it The great one, not a great one.

One might argue, that there have been greater tribulations since 70 A.D., that is a matter for historians and opinions on what will make the one Jesus spoke of, unique. However, I wish you had gone on to quote more of the passage:

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So, immediately after 70 A.D., was the Sun darkened, did the moon fail to give it's light? Did the sign of the Son of Man appear and the tribes morn as they saw Jesus returning, and the angels gathering the elect? If all that happened, then Jesus was speaking of 70 A.D., but as far as I know, we are still waiting for this fulfillment, this great tribulation of which Jesus spoke, is clearly yet to come, or did I miss that part in my history class?

I am not sure, that is what you were implying, and I do not wish to make it sound as though you are. I figured if I thought that might be what your were saying that the tribulation occurred in 70 A.D., that others might have thought so as well. Since some read these posts, perhaps more than their bibles, I thought it prudent to make certain that these other pertinent verses were included, for their implications.

[Massorite]

I know there have probably been dozens of posts to WB about the rapture. I have read views of the rapture. Some think it is a hoax and was not a part of discussed theology until the 1800's. There are books out along these lines (i.e. The Rapture Plot). Those who believe rapture doctrine have differing views on when the rapture might occur (pre-, mid-, or post-trib). Many who believe in rapture doctrine think that God would take us away before times get hard on earth and Christians suffer severe persecution. That God would not let us suffer. In the event that we do go thru intense suffering, does this mean we should forsake God? God forbid. I found the following cut & paste on a website and thought it was interesting and something to consider:

Saints in Tribulation

So God won

[AnExample]

The question would be then, would you rather watch your children get beheaded, tortured or take the mark because it might come down to just that. Then...it seems that there wouldn't be too many folks making it to heaven after Mr. 666 arives on the scene. I don't really know the answer but you really have to ask yourself if very many Christians could survive the horrors of the tribulation. Most Christians I know are good folks but they get testy if the airconditioner is not just right on Sunday morning. I hope its a pre-trib deal but I doubt anyone really knows for sure.

Dan

That's why the days are shorten...for the very elects sake!

[Massorite]

The question would be then, would you rather watch your children get beheaded, tortured or take the mark because it might come down to just that. Then...it seems that there wouldn't be too many folks making it to heaven after Mr. 666 arives on the scene. I don't really know the answer but you really have to ask yourself if very many Christians could survive the horrors of the tribulation. Most Christians I know are good folks but they get testy if the airconditioner is not just right on Sunday morning. I hope its a pre-trib deal but I doubt anyone really knows for sure.Dan

That's why the days are shorten...for the very elects sake!

Yes! There is one who knows for sure. God. I don't believe for a minute that we are going to escape the choice to choose the mark or reject it. I believe that rejecting the mark knowing that you are going to suffer great hardship/tribulation because of that choice is exactly the kind of commitment God is looking for and whether we like it or not Jesus did just that. He knew that if He didn't call down a legend of angels that He was going to suffer. He knew that if He didn't defend Him self that he was going to suffer and die. He knew what was going to happen to Him if He did what His Father expected of Him and He knew that if He let then do as they willed that He was going to suffer great torment.Steven was the very first to die in the name of Jesus and the bible sayS that when Steven looked up into heaven, he could see Jesus standing on the right hand of GOD.What most people don't see here is that the bible says that Jesus was "STANDING" at the right hand of God. There is no place else in the bible where it is written that Jesus was standing at the throne of God. Every place else where throne is mentioned in conection with Jesus He is sitting at the right hand of God. The point here is that Jesus was standing at the right hand of God because when He saw that Stephen was being tormented and dieing in Jesus's name He stood the same way as someone does when they are giving honor to someone else. Jesus honored the fact that Stephen gave his life for Christ.

If the early Believers could suffer great tribulation for 250 years so can we suffer for only a few years.

We are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God be we should remember that Jesus prayed that God would not take us out of tribulation but that God would give us the ability to endure tribulation. We have an obligation to be as prepared as we can to endire to the end.

[Matthitjah]

144,000 evangelists. There is not one place in the bible where the word of God calls the 144,000 chosen Jews, evangelists. And the only place they are spoken of as being in, is Isreal. There is no biblical proof that they will be traveling around the world re-evangelizing a new body of Christ.

but it is strongly inferred...Revelation 7 cites their converts as "too numerous too count"

the Church has no part in Daniel's 70th Week...Daniel's prophecy was revelaed to the Jews, not the Church..."70 sevens are allotted to YOUR PEOPLE" (Daniel 9), it amazes me how people try to put the Church into that period

Grace to you,

Question?

Were there Gentiles around for the other 69 weeks alotted for Daniels people?

Permit me one more, please.

During those other 69 weeks, were there Gentiles joined to Israel?

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Question?

Were there Gentiles around for the other 69 weeks alotted for Daniels people?

yes...but God's messenger/witness of salvation was Israel...as it will be again during the 70th Week

Permit me one more, please.

During those other 69 weeks, were there Gentiles joined to Israel?

in rare cases they were...a few Gentiles were saved in the time of Israel, just not nearly as many as during the 70th Week...in the 70th Week, few Jews will bring MANY Gentiles to Christ...they will FINALLY fulfill their calling/mission, which they failed miserably to do in Old Testament times

this is radical thinking for some in the Church, who do not like to think the Jews will again be the focus of God's attention...but the Kingdom was promised to them, and God always keeps His promises

HMMMM?

I don't know brother.

If it weren't for the Jewish people and their Messiah. I wouldn't be Saved at all.

The way I read scripture is that I am Grafted into this Jewish Kings Kingdom and only by Grace. The Jewish people by Grace as well not because they merited it but beacuse they were chosen to magnify God's Glory as they were the least of the least.

The Jews have literally Saved me and fulfilled their calling in Christ Jesus.

God's Messenger and witness of Salvation is actually Israel even now and her Glorious King. God will Save the Jew, yes. Yet not because He simply is desirous of the Jew but because the calling and the gifting of God is without redemption. God promised and it is simply His Word to the Patriarch's that He is maintaining. Not even for the Patriarch's sakes either but because He delighted in them.

Why does God have to sweep away all Gentile believers to accomplish His purposes in Israel? When His purposes in Israel is the entire Kingdom and all the Saint's of God.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

matthitjah,I agree completely we are grafted in ''rom 11:17-24'' also in ''eph 2:11-19'' it actually says we have become citizens of Israel with the saints out of two he has made one new man aswell as in many places saying we are the seeds of abraham and co-eirs with Christ.Any doctrine pretrib or other wise that separates Isreal from the gentile church is false.Before yzf-r1 starts screaming replacement theology it is not, that is also false for it in itself separates Israel from the church saying the church has taken Israels place.Let me reiterate this is false.All who believe in Jesus Christ as savior have been grafted in made citizens of Israel.''Spiritual Israel'' The Israel of God''galations6:16''.I like the phrase ''Inclusion theology''we have not replaced Israel we are included with them.We all will go through the tribulation unless we die first there is no evacuation plan there is no ''pretrib''rapture.Ephesians 2:14-16 says that God has torn down the middle wall of partition between us ....making in himself two ,one new man....that he might reconcile both unto God in one body through the cross.Are we to believe that God will rebuild the wall of partition and rip us apart?Just to support some man made false doctrine of false hope to the church.I say not''God forbid''.the saints will be here for the trib gentile and jewish.

Bless you wings,

Spiritual Israel is a completely different matter and a completely different thread. I wouldn't term it that and neither do I believe in a Spiritual Israel.

What I am talking about with things like the 24 Elders is the whole of Gods redeemed.

I am also trying to come to an understanding of Gods plan according to His Grace. Of how we have come to an idea of Jewish believers being left behind to Evangelize a lost Nation and world. I am asking questions to stir some thought with respect to ideas being tossed around as well.

I personally do not buy the Pre-Trib Rapture. I am asking the questions that I asked in prayer concerning this whole matter. I guess my standing on the issue would be one of Post-Trib Pre-Wrath.

What led me to my beliefs on the Rapture as I currently hold them is a way of thinking of God's redeemed as a whole. Regardless of their Nationality.

I also believe we can discuss this matter without resorting to our flesh.

One of the keys to understanding the issue in my whole mind is understanding the Ressurection of the Just. There are two general Ressurections pictured in Scripture. One of them is the Just and the other is the Unjust.

Peace,

Dave