Adam Pre-Fall

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

I hope to see several responses, but I want to see Apo's & Tess's response to this in particular. As I have considered my position on Adam Pre-fall, many verses have come to mind which either might apply to his situation or parrallel it. So I would like whomever, to consider the following verses with Adam in mind - Pre-fall.

Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

ADAM WOULD NOT ADMIT HIS SIN.

Proverbs 8:12-13 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

DOES THIS APPLY TO ADAM?

Proverbs 11:2 When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom. 3 The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them.

SATAN SAID YOU SHALL BE LIKE GOD - WHAT DO YOU THINK ADAM THOUGHT?

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

DOES THIS APPLY TO ADAM?

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

SURE SOUNDS LIKE ADAM

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

IN ADAM'S CASE, NOT ONLY LOW, BUT OUT ON HIS FANNY!

Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, ADAM SURE DIDN'T HEARKEN UNTO HIS COMMAND

Daniel 5:20-21 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him: 21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

MAKE THE APPROPRIATE CHANGES AS WOULD APPLY TO ADAM, AND AGAIN GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

EMPHASIS ON GOOD - WAS ADAM GOOD?

Mark 7:20-23 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

ADAM'S LUST FOR THE APPLE CERTAINLY DID NOT COME FROM WITHOUT.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

ADAM ONLY WANTED TO BE GOD!

1 Cor 8:1-2 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

SO ADAM THOUGHT HE HAD JUST RECEIVED REVELATORY KNOWLEDGE. YEP HE SURE DID.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

IF EVE WAS "BEGUILED BY THE SERPENT", THEN ADAM WAS BEGUILED BY EVE.

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

CERTAINLY SOUNDS LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN ADAM'S CASE.

1 John 1:9-10 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

EVE SAID "THE SERPENT MADE ME DO IT", ADAM SAID "THE WOMAN YOU GAVE ME MADE ME DO IT." Where does the buck stop?

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

WOULD YOU SAY THAT THIS APPLIED TO ADAM?

In addition just a few more that I am particularly interested in:

1 Cor 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Thank you for taking the time.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[deadman1204]

Whats your point? What are you getting at?

I do think your making to much out of this, whatever it is though.

About all we know about Adams life was his sin and shortly afterwards. What about before? We cannot make assumptions here, and it seems your drawing some HUGE conclusions here with no proof.

Adam was created sinless, and was later polluted. He sinned and it was terrible. Just like you or me every day.

What you said about Adam, it sounds like every person I have ever met, myself included. We are all desperately evil. Its terrible but true. The fact that we have to fight against ourselves not to sin shows this. We are no better than him.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Deadman,

Thank you for responding.

Whats your point? What are you getting at?

I do think your making to much out of this, whatever it is though.

Apparently you have not read any of the posts regarding Adam. When you do, you will see the importance of understanding more about our earliest father.

About all we know about Adams life was his sin and shortly afterwards. What about before? We cannot make assumptions here, and it seems your drawing some HUGE conclusions here with no proof.

There is actually quite a bit that the scriptures say about Adam, of which you are apparently unaware.

Adam was created sinless, and was later polluted. He sinned and it was terrible. Just like you or me every day.

What you said about Adam, it sounds like every person I have ever met, myself included. We are all desperately evil. Its terrible but true. The fact that we have to fight against ourselves not to sin shows this. We are no better than him.

You make my point for me. We are even as Adam was Pre-fall. We have a fleshly nature that is in common with the created Adam before he sinned, only now we are born into a world that is without God and without any desire to seek Him.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest jckduboise]

Having established that we are no better than Adam was and that we are all full of sin.

What is the rest of the picture in your thread that I am missing?

Lead on my brother

[Kabowd]

Ernie's belief is that Adam was created inherently flawed, incomplete...not perfect and sinless. He's attempting to use the verses he listed to prove this (i think?).

Ernie, are you trying to suggest that these verses support your belief that Adam was not perfect pre-fall? I don't have time to respond in depth right now. If you'll explain what you're getting at though, that'll help when I do get the chance to return. Grazie.

[Dad Ernie]

Ernie, are you trying to suggest that these verses support your belief that Adam was not perfect pre-fall? I don't have time to respond in depth right now. If you'll explain what you're getting at though, that'll help when I do get the chance to return. Grazie.

Greetings Tess,

No response to the verses and comments I gave?

Yes. Along with all creation, Adam was created "in the flesh", which inherently is NOT perfect, for TRUE LIFE is of the Spirit. I am not saying that Adam was flawed, but the flesh is weak and subject to temptation, as proven out by Adam's sin. We are no different. Place temptation in front of us and we have a battle on our hands. Had Adam been "perfect" as you and APO seem to think, he would have been filled with the Spirit of God as Jesus was, for Jesus IS OUR PERFECTION, which applies even to Adam. God did not have a temporary plan for Adam, but a permanent one for him and us. That "perfection" is ONLY found in Christ and it results in eternal life far and above what Adam OR US know. Adam pre-fall could not have judged angels, but we shall. Even as Christ is so far above the angels, so we shall be IN HIM, and the angels long to look into these things.

I hope you take the time to read and respond to the verses I provided.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[EricH]

Ernie, are you trying to suggest that these verses support your belief that Adam was not perfect pre-fall? I don't have time to respond in depth right now. If you'll explain what you're getting at though, that'll help when I do get the chance to return. Grazie.

Greetings Tess,

No response to the verses and comments I gave?

Yes. Along with all creation, Adam was created "in the flesh", which inherently is NOT perfect, for TRUE LIFE is of the Spirit. I am not saying that Adam was flawed, but the flesh is weak and subject to temptation, as proven out by Adam's sin. We are no different. Place temptation in front of us and we have a battle on our hands. Had Adam been "perfect" as you and APO seem to think, he would have been filled with the Spirit of God as Jesus was, for Jesus IS OUR PERFECTION, which applies even to Adam. God did not have a temporary plan for Adam, but a permanent one for him and us. That "perfection" is ONLY found in Christ and it results in eternal life far and above what Adam OR US know. Adam pre-fall could not have judged angels, but we shall. Even as Christ is so far above the angels, so we shall be IN HIM, and the angels long to look into these things.

I hope you take the time to read and respond to the verses I provided.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

The idea that the flesh is inherently evil, finds its roots in Gnostic thought rather than in the Bible. The flesh became sinful after the fall. Man was actually pronouced good by God (as was all creation).

[apothanein kerdos]

Ernie;

It seems you are attempting to say:

1) Adam was inherently sinful

2) The flesh is lesser than the spirit

3) Adam was made to God's standard but not perfect and therefore God's standard is less than perfection

Basically, until you can clarify that, I have nothing to say. Likewise, your scriptures don't even apply to the subject and most have been dealt with in other topics. Stop playing your pre-recorded record and use some original thought, it would be much appreciated. Also, why don't you take a stab at attempting to use proper interpretation to "very good" in Hebrew (instead of using a concordance) and explaining how God has a standard that's less than perfect. Likewise, explain how God can create imperfection. Do that and we might have a discussion. Thing is, you won't do that because you can't. As I said in another topic, I don't spend time debating heresy, which is exactly what this is (Gnostic heresy). So unless you can clarfiy that this is not Gnostic heresy, I don't see why I should have any discourse with you. We have had this discussion twice and in both you would not respond to specific points of anlysis and interpretation I brought up...that is rude and to me shows that you are not someone who has proven himself worthy of a debate or discussion. So respond to all that you haven't responded to yet, and then we'll have a discussion.

[Kabowd]

Ernie, are you trying to suggest that these verses support your belief that Adam was not perfect pre-fall? I don't have time to respond in depth right now. If you'll explain what you're getting at though, that'll help when I do get the chance to return. Grazie.

Greetings Tess,

No response to the verses and comments I gave?

Yes. Along with all creation, Adam was created "in the flesh", which inherently is NOT perfect, for TRUE LIFE is of the Spirit. I am not saying that Adam was flawed, but the flesh is weak and subject to temptation, as proven out by Adam's sin. We are no different. Place temptation in front of us and we have a battle on our hands. Had Adam been "perfect" as you and APO seem to think, he would have been filled with the Spirit of God as Jesus was, for Jesus IS OUR PERFECTION, which applies even to Adam. God did not have a temporary plan for Adam, but a permanent one for him and us. That "perfection" is ONLY found in Christ and it results in eternal life far and above what Adam OR US know. Adam pre-fall could not have judged angels, but we shall. Even as Christ is so far above the angels, so we shall be IN HIM, and the angels long to look into these things.

I hope you take the time to read and respond to the verses I provided.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

The idea that the flesh is inherently evil, finds its roots in Gnostic thought rather than in the Bible. The flesh became sinful after the fall. Man was actually pronouced good by God (as was all creation).

I didn't respond to the verses you gave Ernie because for one, as I stated, I didn't have time earlier. But now that I do, I see that none of them contextually apply. None of them support your assertion that Adam was imperfect pre-fall. What EricH and Apo have stated is right and true, and until you explain how God could declare anything less than perfect "very good" (which we learned literally meant perfection in Hebrew), you really have no argument.

[Dad Ernie]

The idea that the flesh is inherently evil, finds its roots in Gnostic thought rather than in the Bible. The flesh became sinful after the fall. Man was actually pronouced good by God (as was all creation).

Greetings EricH,

To answer you and Tess on this particulary subject regarding Adam. I have never once said that the "flesh" is inherently EVIL. I have said on many occasions that it is WEAK. It has no inherent life within itself, such as God, Jesus or the angels. LIFE IS IN THE SPIRIT. The flesh is weak and easily tempted, and as can be seen with Adam and with all of us, WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST TO OVERCOME SIN, we FAIL! Please do not attribute to what I have said, false attributes.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie