News: Bishop abandoned in Africa over gay views

[Fiosh]

Whether it has to do with a more modern worship service, prayer book revisions, or the ordination of homosexuals into the clergy, the Anglican Church has always approached change with extreme opposition even to the point of bloodshed. I think it is wrong as Leonard so eloquently stated to allow the ordination of bishops who are homosexuals, however it is also wrong for a bishop to ordain a priest outside of his/ her diocese that the conservative bishop did in the south. So neither side is blameless. Whereas the Catholic church is structured like a monarchy with the pope at the highest position, and baptists were every church is independent the Anglican union especially the Episcopal church in America is structured like a Confederacy where the bishops really have little or no jurisdiction over each other and the archbishop doesn't even have authority. This could be a very good thing but it could also be our downfall as there is very little one bishop can do to another bishop.

After General Convention I wish the bishops would agree to follow what was ruled on but this is hardly never the case, and a dividing line has occured not only on issues of homosexuality but on all issues, however we still serve the same master and follow the same liturgy, and when all is said and done we are called to love one another whether straight or gay rich or poor black or white male or female conservative or liberal

Exactly where do you stand on the issue. It's unclear to me how you believe the church to respond to those who practice a homosexual lifestyle.

Here's an excerpt from the "Changing Attitudes" site:

We believe that:

there is integrity in being both Christian and gay, lesbian or bisexual

gay, lesbian and bisexual people are called by God to express their sexuality in loving, faithful and committed relationships

same-sex orientation is a God-given reality for a large minority of people, not a sin or a sickness

as the positive contribution of the gay community towards society becomes clearer, the church's mission to this expanding group becomes urgent

our lives offer evidence of the fruits of the Spirit

our present experience requires a re-evaluation of scripture and tradition

to be gay, lesbian or bisexual is not limited to sexual activity or sexual identity but encompasses every dimension of life

prejudice against gay people in the church is as unacceptable as racism or prejudice against women

the church should stop colluding with cultural repression and discrimination against lesbian, gay and bisexual people in all parts of the world.

I'd be interested to hear your reaction.

Thanks,

F

[CSLewis]

My personal opinion is that the ideal marriage is between a man and a woman in a life long monogamous relationship in which both partners seek to please God and worship Him in all steps of life and in every action thought and deed. Having said that when looking at the brokenness of marriages and divorce rates that plague our marriages it is hard to take serious that marriage is deemed sacred anymore. I think that many gays are born gay and that is there struggle for life. It is hard not to be prejudiced to someone who is different to you. We can show them love. We can accept them in our churches but I think that our clergy should be held to a higher standard, not that they are flawless but they should agree with the b asic tenets of Christianity and the Nicene's creed and Apostles creed.

My organic chemistry professor is an atheist and a homosexual but he has attended my parish a couple times and I can see a difference in him however slight it could be that some seeds are being planted and even though we are a very orthodox and conservative parish he still feels welcome and I still believe that the Holy Spirit is in the church and that God can use this situation to bring sinners and unbelievers to experience the real presence of his Spirit.

[CSLewis]

"One of the country's most senior bishops has reignited the Church of

England row over homosexuality by claiming that same-sex partnerships

are supported by the Bible.

The Rt Rev Richard Harries, the Bishop of Oxford, said that

traditionalists in the Church needed to be "converted" to see that

homosexual unions are confirmed by the scriptures.

He reaffirmed his controversial belief that an openly gay man should be

allowed to be appointed a bishop.

His remarks have angered traditionalists and are set to rekindle the

debate on homosexual "marriages" that has left the Church's House of

Bishops deeply divided following the introduction of the Civil

Partnerships Act last year.

Bishop Harries said that the Church of England faced a split if the

liberal and conservative factions did not come to an agreement on how

to be more inclusive towards homosexuals. In an interview with The

Sunday Telegraph, Bishop Harries, who retires this week, expressed his

regret that Canon Jeffrey John, now Dean of St Albans, had been forced

to withdraw as Bishop of Reading after it emerged that he was in a

long-term homosexual -relationship.

His decision to promote Canon John to bishop caused an outcry in 2003.

But last night Bishop Harries stood by his action.

"I'd still like him to become a bishop," he said. "He has all the gifts

to be a bishop, but there is still a process of discernment going on.

For there to be change, evangelicals have to be convinced that a

permanent, faithful same-sex partnership is congruous with biblical

truth."

America became the first province of the worldwide Anglican Communion

to promote an openly gay man to bishop, when Canon Gene Robinson was

elected in New Hampshire in 2003, plunging the worldwide Church into a

crisis that still engulfs it.

Bishop Harries said: "It's difficult to have gay partnerships fully

accepted by the Church, a Church in which evangelicals are a valued

part, if they are so strongly opposed to it. There has to be a

conversion to a new way to see that gay partnerships are not contrary

to biblical truth. They are congruous with the deepest biblical truths,

about faithfulness and stability."

The House of Bishops last year issued pastoral advice on the Civil

Partnerships Act, allowing clergy to enter into relationships on the

condition that they assured their bishop that they would abstain from

sex.

However, the Bishop of Rochester, the Rt Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, has

denounced the guidelines as "unbiblical" and unworkable. The bishop,

who is a potential successor to Bishop Harries, said the policy had

undermined Church teaching and unity.

Gay clergy have already defied the bishops' statement by saying that

they will not give assurances that they will be celibate. A number have

registered their partnerships and had the relationship blessed in

Church despite guidelines recommending that they not be offered formal

services.

Reform, an influential evangelical group that represents more than

1,000 parishes, has written to bishops urging them to reconsider the

guidelines.

Its chairman, the Rev David Banting, expressed dismay at Bishop

Harries's comments, arguing that the bishop was wrong to want them to

be "converted" to his position.

"He thinks that he has the weight of culture and the weight of the

majority of the Church in the West behind him, which convinces him that

he's right," said Mr Banting.

"Same-sex partnerships are not congruous with the Bible," he said,

adding: "Sexual relations outside of heterosexual marriage are not

blessed by God.

"We need to be pastorally supportive of those who struggle in this

area, but we shouldn't be trying to change the teaching of the Church.

No amount of calling black white will make black white."

As the House of Bishops prepares to discuss the Anglican homosexual

crisis at its meeting next week, liberals in the Church will be

encouraged by the comments from so respected a figure.

The Rev Dr Giles Fraser, the chairman of Inclusive Church, a liberal

group, said: "His comments will be received with joy by the majority of

ordinary churchgoers. It is absolutely clear that the Church needs to

have a more welcoming and loving attitude to gays."

Bishop Harries, who was made a life peer last week, said that the

Jeffrey John affair had made people think about the issue in way that

they never had before.

"I knew that it would be divisive within the diocese of Oxford, but I

thought that that could be contained within two years. I hadn't

realised the effect on the Anglican Communion and the pressure put on

the archbishop as a result of that."

Dr John, 53, is still in a relationship with another cleric, the Rev

Grant Holmes, which he says is celibate. Dr John is the author of the

controversial book Permanent, Faithful, Stable, which argues for

overturning the Church's ban on the ordination of practising homosexual clergy"

And the divide widens...

[Spunky]

I would simple just state what others have stated all churches

should openly welcome everyone including homosexual into

God's house to hear His words in hopes of reaching every

sinner and turning them from their sinful ways in hopes that

they may be saved, but under no circumstance should these

churches bend their sermons or ignore what God teaches us.

I applaud Africa for seeing this Bishop as a false teacher and

keep hope that those like him will be handled in the same

manner! People using the excuse well times have changed its

different from Jesus's time are laughable in my opinion, For the

Bible covers all time the before the now and the future and yes

the end. Sin is Sin and to call it anything else is a Sin!

God Bless!

[Leonard]

As C.S. Lewis (the famous one) himself noted: Truth is ever the divider of men.

Unless these morally and scripturally compromising clergy are ready to proclaim with equal passion that 'murder is good' they are being hypocritical to favor homosexual relationships. It has afterall, been argued by many murderers in court that 'they were born this way.' And clearly if you're 'born this way' society must immediately begin trucling to your particular perversion......

[CSLewis]

What about those who are gay but celibate? that is not a sin because no action is taken. And there are murderers who have had mental illnesses and deemed unable to control there actions, however I think it comes down to a choice whether gay or straight. There is a point before fornication that one has a chance to leave and go the other way. Yet we all have sinned and not done the things we should. If you really look into your heart Leonard you will find that there is some prejudice there. For example if a man came to your church who was living out of wedlock with his girlfriend and another who lived with another man. I think that most christians would look down on the gay man yet pray that the couple get married. Throughout the animal kingdom there is exhibition of homosexual behavior.

[tah]

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

[Electric Angel]

Thank you so much for your words of wisdom. I agree with you, however it is a different time that we live in today than the early Christians lived in and we must understand that change occurs in the church however reluctant we are to accept it. The Pharisees had every right to stone the prostitute but Jesus showed mercy and interpretted the law with love in mind.

No church should allow a homosexual to be a member without them seizing the practice. Any bishop who says that such an obviously sinful lifestyle is not sinful should be cut off. Kudos to the church.

[CSLewis]

John 9:1-17

"Mosaic Law prohibited any sort of work on the sabbath. Jesus, seeing a blind person, took clay and used it to annoint him. Despite his subsequent healing, the Pharisees condemn the work done by Jesus because it was done on the sabbath.

This is an example of Jesus choosing people over ideas. When we make obedience to rules the measure by which we judge people's spiritual health or their relationship to God, we risk being terribly wrong. The pharisees miss seeing the Messiah because of their blind obedience to rules in the words of scripture. I am convinced that God worries less about our blind obedience to rules than he does about our care of others.

The commandment to love one another goes deep and sweeps away anything that we construct to give order to our lives. Faithful Christians today are struggling with issues of homosexuality and how to relate to gay and lesbian people. Like the Pharisees before us, if we are not careful, we will miss seeing brothers and sisters in Christ because of an overly rigourous obedience to rules."

[O'Dannyboy]

I think some of us are getting our wires crossed on this subject. We, most definately, should invite sinners to join us in worship and to encourage them to submit to biblical teaching and renounce sin in all its forms. I do not, however, think that anyone, who claims to be a Christian, should be encouraging the ordination of Gay or Lesbian Priests. It is one thing to lead sinners to Christ and another thing to profess such obvious and blatant sinners their representatives of Christ. How much more simple can it be? To place a homosexual as a priest is putting a fox in charge of the hens. Its like putting a drug pusher in charge of someones rehabilitation. I guess our biggest problem right now is that we, as believers, allow such institutions to be associated with and even to profess their representation of Christ when they allow and even promote such behavior. The very idea that they would embrace such behavior because it is, as they see it, "here to stay" is utter heresy.

Christ spent much of his time among sinners because he loved them and meanto to express this love through forgiveness and grace. He made many people whole again but his condition was that they woud sin no more. Now we have whole denomonations of his "church" that not only offer forgiveness but are also permissive of such people shepherding a portion Christs flock? Some may disagree but I see this, among things, as part of the falling away that we are told must happen before that great and terrible day. Oh how we have strayed.