sola fide

[Guest st.m1chael]

I grew up understanding the RCC teachings on salvation through faith in Christ and works. I also understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that most Protestants believe that salvation by faith alone is sufficient. There seems to me to be so many holes in this interpretation that I'm beginning to think that my understanding of what sola fide is must be lacking. Would someone be willing to explain it to me so I can hear it first hand from someone. If you don't mind I might have a few follow up questions.

Friends in Christ

mike

[CellShade]

I grew up understanding the RCC teachings on salvation through faith in Christ and works. I also understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that most Protestants believe that salvation by faith alone is sufficient. There seems to me to be so many holes in this interpretation that I'm beginning to think that my understanding of what sola fide is must be lacking. Would someone be willing to explain it to me so I can hear it first hand from someone. If you don't mind I might have a few follow up questions.

Friends in Christ

mike

Hello Mike and welcome to the boards

I don't exactly understand your question but this is what I think you said.

First off I'll base this believing that RCC is Roman Catholic Church since I never read this abbreviation

So basically RCC believes in Faith and the need for good works to outbalance there wrong works(or deeds) .

I could post some verses on this but can't remember correctly so I'll leave that to other members.

So just wanted too know on the RCC thing before I make a complete post on this subject.

[apothanein kerdos]

I grew up understanding the RCC teachings on salvation through faith in Christ and works. I also understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that most Protestants believe that salvation by faith alone is sufficient. There seems to me to be so many holes in this interpretation that I'm beginning to think that my understanding of what sola fide is must be lacking. Would someone be willing to explain it to me so I can hear it first hand from someone. If you don't mind I might have a few follow up questions.

Friends in Christ

mike

Yes, unfortunately many times sola fide is misinterpreted, even by Protestants. Let me begin by saying thank you for asking for a clarification of it and not blasting us from the get go. That is a sure sign of a great mind.

As for your question. When we teach faith alone without works, we are not saying works are not needed. We are merely saying that works have no influence upon our salvation. Faith alone, that is trust in God, is the only thing that can save us. Only by placing trust in God can we truly be saved. So does this mean I can place faith in God and sin all I want? Absoltuely not. Though I can sin, as Paul addresses numerous times (so does John), it does not mean I can live a lifestyle of sin.

Works, as James explains, is the proof of our faith. In other words, if we take faith to mean "trust" (which is essentially what it means in the Greek and Hebrew) then trust is seen in actions. Now, faith has to begin on the inside, it is an internal action. Nothing can begin external, sin or good works. It all has to be internal. When this internal action occurs we are making a covenant with God, saying that we realize we are fallen sinners, a marred image of Him. We ask Him to forgive us of our sins and to make us His own. This is justification, something that cannot be overturned. Once we are justified, that is final. We then ask Him to help us to die to ourselves and to let Christ live within us. This is called sanctification. It is through sanctification that our faith is seen. If there is no act of sanctification, then there is no faith. Remember, all outward actions begin from inward processes. Thus, if there is no fruit, then there was never any faith to begin with. Either way we cut it, works cannot have any merit upon our salvation because works are only a manifestation of what has already occured from within, thus, if certain sinful works could render our salvation void, the fact is, it already occured before the action did. Let's take murder as an example. If murdering someone could somehow undo my justification, then we'd all be in a world of hurt. How so? In John 8 (I think, I don't have my bible in front of me) Jesus talks about how anytime we show any hatred towards a brother, we have murdered in our heart. The problem is, we do this A LOT. That means that if physically murdering a person can render my salvation null and void, the fact is, it was rendered null and void long before when I hated the person enough to kill him. Shoot, if I simply hate a person and don't act on that hate, I'm still bound to hell under this standard.

If we look to good works, good works still have to be done as a measure of faith. That means faith already exists before the good work occurs, therefore good works cannot aid faith because they are produced by faith.

Make sense or did I just confuse the issue even more?

[Electric Angel]

I grew up understanding the RCC teachings on salvation through faith in Christ and works. I also understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that most Protestants believe that salvation by faith alone is sufficient. There seems to me to be so many holes in this interpretation that I'm beginning to think that my understanding of what sola fide is must be lacking. Would someone be willing to explain it to me so I can hear it first hand from someone. If you don't mind I might have a few follow up questions.

Friends in Christ

mike

Hi Michael"

Justification by faith is the most important doctrine in the New Testament. It teaches that human beings are inherently sinful and can never please God with our own good works. Therfore, Jesus died on the cross on our behalf - a vicarious sacrifice - and rose from the dead, conquering sin and creating a perfect path through which we can be reconciled to God. As Peter said to the Roman jailer who wanted to know what he had to do to be saved: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." That means accept that you're a sinner and you need Jesus as your savior. Instantly, you are saved.

Now, where does works fit into this? If you've truly been justified by faith, then you are a new creation and you will bear good fruit (ie good works.) You don't do good works to obtain salvation, you do them because you've been saved. Good works are the result of salvation, not the way to it.

Peace and blessings, my friend.

[Guest st.m1chael]

First off I'll base this believing that RCC is Roman Catholic Church since I never read this abbreviation

...sorry, uh yes by RCC I meant Roman Catholic Church

[apothanein kerdos]

First off I'll base this believing that RCC is Roman Catholic Church since I never read this abbreviation

...sorry, uh yes by RCC I meant Roman Catholic Church

Just curious if we have answered your question concerning sola fide.

[Guest st.m1chael]

Make sense or did I just confuse the issue even more?

No that helps alot - thank you

Works, as James explains, is the proof of our faith.

But doesn't James also say that it is through works and not faith alone that we are saved?

Remember, all outward actions begin from inward processes. Thus, if there is no fruit, then there was never any faith to begin with.

But what if a person is saved and after many years in the community of going to church, raising a family and being a good husband, him and his wife begin fighting, maybe he starts drinking - a little at first , then alot, a couple years later they divorce, he starts hanging out at work with some morally bankrupt coworkers, drinking leads to experimental party drugs, which lead to total moral depravity. You name it: fornication, pornograghy, homosexuality, small time drug dealing leading to big time drug dealing, and maybe even murder (actual, not the kind you mentioned earlier). The man dies in prison leading a homosexual life in there...does he go to heaven?

[Guest st.m1chael]

Jst curious if we have answered your question concerning sola fide

yes-thank you.

[Electric Angel]

Make sense or did I just confuse the issue even more?

No that helps alot - thank you

Works, as James explains, is the proof of our faith.

But doesn't James also say that it is through works and not faith alone that we are saved?

Remember, all outward actions begin from inward processes. Thus, if there is no fruit, then there was never any faith to begin with.

But what if a person is saved and after many years in the community of going to church, raising a family and being a good husband, him and his wife begin fighting, maybe he starts drinking - a little at first , then alot, a couple years later they divorce, he starts hanging out at work with some morally bankrupt coworkers, drinking leads to experimental party drugs, which lead to total moral depravity. You name it: fornication, pornograghy, homosexuality, small time drug dealing leading to big time drug dealing, and maybe even murder (actual, not the kind you mentioned earlier). The man dies in prison leading a homosexual life in there...does he go to heaven?

If someone behaved like that, I'd wonder if they ever received God's saving grace in the first place.

[apothanein kerdos]

Excellent questions.

But doesn't James also say that it is through works and not faith alone that we are saved?

No, not at all. Too often people take James 2:14 to the end way out of context. They ignore the broader context of James and fail to realize that James never once in the entire book is talking about our justification with God. For the final chapter of the book I'm writing, I'm actually going through James, chapter by chapter, and giving a proper context to it. The entire purpose behind the book of James is that if we do not act on our faith then it becomes a worthless faith to the world. We are to be doers of the Word, not just hearers. He equates a person who merely hears the word and does not act on it as a person who has seen a reflection of himself but does not remember it once he walks away. This means that a person has not taken time to understand the reflection. Likewise, when a person has studied his faith but does not put it into practice, it means that he has not understood his faith. In chapter 4 he calls people who do not act on the Word adulterers. Now, the significance in this is that he shows we have cheated on God, but he does not pronounce a divorce. Likewise, James even states that all works, good or bad, begin from within (look to the first chapter).

When we take this information to james 2 we find that when he says we are justified by works, he is not speaking of salvation but instead of our stance before man. If we take it to mean salvation then it runs contrary to the entire context of the book, which doesn't make sense. Why would an author violate his own context?

But what if a person is saved and after many years in the community of going to church, raising a family and being a good husband, him and his wife begin fighting, maybe he starts drinking - a little at first , then alot, a couple years later they divorce, he starts hanging out at work with some morally bankrupt coworkers, drinking leads to experimental party drugs, which lead to total moral depravity. You name it: fornication, pornograghy, homosexuality, small time drug dealing leading to big time drug dealing, and maybe even murder (actual, not the kind you mentioned earlier). The man dies in prison leading a homosexual life in there...does he go to heaven?

Quite the extreme hypothetical.

I ask how is this man any worse than any of us? You skirted around the issue, and I really want you to look at the issue. Though this man showed many physical manifestations of sin, how often to we commit sin similar to this man's but have no physical manifestations of it? Remember, all deeds, whether good or bad, begin from within.

The thing is, the hypothetical is flawed. You assume he was saved from the beginning. A person who truly has faith in God and begins to backslide will either return to God because He hems them in and forces his return, or God takes his life. My question to you is, is God so weak in this covenant of salvation that He would not intervene in this man's life to stop him from sinning? In other words, when we mix works with faith, we become nothing more than watered down Diest. Our salvation and sanctification become nothing more than what we can accomplish, and if that's the case, we are all doomed. However, if faith is all that is save us and our works are based upon that faith, then there is hope because all faith comes from God and works are the manifestation of the work of God within us. Works cannot save us, and if they even aided in salvation, then the death of Christ was useless. In fact, if works need to be present for salvation, the very thing that makes Christanity unique (grace, umerrited favor, works would mean it is merrited favor), would be destroyed.