What do these verses mean if not the salvation of all mankind?

[red77]

Red how do you reconcile these verses with universalism?

John 3: 18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

Romans 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

Well, the first verse would mean we're all condemned until we believe, if you take it to mean condemned to an eternal fiery pit or eternal torture then I would have to say I dont, it doesnt say condemned to anything in this verse, I'd see it as not having life within and the emptiness that that can bring, one day all will believe so are they still condemned? I dont think so, 'hell' exists in so many areas of this life but to think that condemnation means a literal torture pit is pure speculation and interpretation....i'll concede that my own take isn't rooted in fact but the fact that the Bible says that God will not cast off forever and will not retain his anger pretty clearly refutes the condemnation of eternal torment

People will die without having believed I think, noone knows what the last thought a person will have so who knows? But if people do die without belief then they could be said to die in their sins, that doesnt mean that they cant be forgiven and reconciled back to God unless you believe that this physicalplane is the only chance you have to be 'saved' and then its hell or whatever.......but again the verses that say God wont cast off forever etc etc indicate that his anger is not eternal, I dont think there wont be justice meted out to people, in fact all people but it will be justice......not wrathful torturing vengeance and there's a massive difference.....

It says that all will confess and every knee will bow doesnt it? its interpreted so often that many will say it too late but does it actually say that in the verse.........going by this verse on its own merits then everyone will actually be saved.........

Right, i wont pretend to have answered to your satisfaction to be honest, I'm sure there's a fair chance you'll disagree as with others but would you be able to answer my original question in return?

Edited June 7, 2006 by red77

[red77]

Hi red.....

You can believe in marriage as much as you want, but youre not married until you put the ring "ON".

Christ sustains the Life of the Born again believer.....Christ IS the Life of the Born again believer.

"It is no longer I that Lives but Christ who lives in ME........"

Christianity IS exclusive.....Absolutely exclusive.......God has accepted ONLY those who are "In Christ."

He chose US......We simply accepted his gift.....Why did he choose us...???? I don't know, cannot for the life of me figure out WHY, but he DID....Not on the basis of who WE are, but on the basis of who HE is.....Everything God has offered to us is "Through Christ." and "In Christ."

"The love of God which is IN Christ Jesus."

"Just as In Christ, God has forgiven US."

"He will provide All your needs according to His riches and glory In Christ Jesus."

"The wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift from God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."

Absolutely everything that God has made available to the believer is only made available through Christ.

If you don't have Christ, you don't have ANYTHING.

The key word here is "Lord" or Master.......Is Jesus your Lord...? Is he the first and final authority in any circumstance of your life....? Is Jesus Uncompromisingly the one you are totally and completely surrendered to......? Are you prepared to give up your life for the message of the gospel......? Would you lay down your life if it meant the salvation of just ONE soul.....?

Because red, you cannot serve TWO masters, you must as Jesus said, Love the one and hate the other.....Are YOU the sole possession of Christ, or do you belong to someone else.....?

How can you share the father-heart of God for those who are Lost when it is your belief that everyone is already saved.....??? Why evangelise the Lost...??

Why do people cry out for the salvation of their loved ones who are still lost....? Why do people go into all the world as commanded by Jesus to preach the gospel if everyone is already saved....???

What drives us and motivates us to run with perseverance the race that is set before us....? What race is there to run if all men are already saved....?

Why does a Christian care about those who are LOST if they are indeed "NOT LOST."??

Speak to those who go into all the nations and suffer for the sake of the gospel horrendous persecution, and then you will begin to understand why it said that God is the saviour of all men," Especially those who believe." Because those who believe will suffer persecution, rejection and even death for the name of Christ. "Precious in the sight of God is the death of his saints." Willing to face anything to proclaim the name of Christ, no matter what the cost.

You are told to "Put on Christ".....You must apply Christ to your life.....Not just his teachings......Jesus Himself....

Regards,

Ben.

Ben, it is starting to get a bit tiresome where you continually question my faith and the strength of it.........I have answered these points before and I do not cast aspersions on the strength of yours so please afford me the same courtesy.......thanks......this thread was for people to answer the verses mentioned and how they indicate the salvation of all men, I will answer some of your points which you've raised but I would ask you to do the same with the original question otherwise there's not much point in responding to it to be honest........

Why share faith with people? Why do you do it now? Purely because of your belief in eternal torturing? I've already answered this but is it not enough to share and bring hope to people who are lost in this life and who suffer? Is it not enough to share the richness you'll have in your own life with other people? To bring hope to others and their loved ones and families that there's a God who loves them beyond compare? It would be enough for me! Its not about a race....!! if you wouldnt feel the need to share the peace and love within you with other people then would that not be selfish? And if we're told to love our fellow man like ourselves then selfishness shouldnt even be apparent...........

You use the verse in Tim for especially of those that believe.....yes, i agree with you that times could be hard but maybe thats why the 'especially' bit is used there.......those who are persecuted will receive their just reward wont they? the way I see it anyone who lives by faith enough to die for someone will receive greater reward than one who does the killing, its logic apart from anything else and justice will be fair, those who kill will answer for the crime, just not eternally.....

And as the verse says God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, I notice you aren't trying to say that it means otherwise.......if you do think it doesnt encompass all men then please explain along with the other verses I've posted

regards

Red

[red77]

Red,

Do you know why people like to reject the Christ of the Bible........? They reject Christ because it is easier to reject him than it is to follow him.

You look for the salvation without the commitment. You want to follow Christ on your own terms......Your terms make you unfit for the kingdom of God, that is why when ever men made an excuse he was clear and concise.......He who begins to plow and then looks BACK is not fit for the kingdom.....You want to follow Christ......???? Then commit your life to him......100% of it.....If you're going to keep 1% for yourself, then forget it....It's ALL or NOTHING....

If you're going to lay down your life for the proclamation of the gospel red, you'd better gain an understanding of the Faith you're prepared to die for...

Regards,

Ben.

To say to anyone they're unfit for the kingdom of God is not your decision to make, i dont appreciate your constant judging and that is quite frankly over the line, God will be the judge of whether I'm right or not.....not you........if you can answer the original question go ahead, if not I'd appreciate it if you can keep the judgemental and groundless assumptions about me to yourself thanks

regards

Red

[red77]

I think the term ALL is meant to refer to Jews and Gentiles alike. In other words, Christ didn't die just for the Jews but Gentiles too, ALL men. You'll notice throughout the new testament the statement "first the Jew and then the Gentile". The use of the word ALL is intended to remove the idea of the exclusivity of Christ's salvation to the Jews. I don't believe it's intended to remove the responsibility for us to accept and believe it. So in that context, the scriptures you point out can easily be reconciled with the idea that we have something to do to recieve it.

Consider this verse from Acts 16:30-34 NASB: 30...and after brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

Notice that Paul and Silas did not reply to the jailer when asked what he must do "Nah...don't worry, you're saved already."

To accept your idea that ALL men are saved regardless implies the apostles themselves didn't know what they were talking about and that their own deaths were in vain.

The important word here though is 'all'.......and many verses dont imply any action on our part to be 'saved' in the long run......that doesnt mean to say that its all going to be rose garden for everyone either......just because I dont believe in an eternal hell does not mean that there wont be punishment for people either, but it will be done for correction as well as chastisement IMO and thats what punishment is there for, torturing for eternity constitutes nothing short of barbarism and ceases to fall under the term 'punishment' for at least that reason......

I'd say this to you and others here too, how can eternal punishment exist when taking the last two verses of my OP into account...........?? We might need saving but not from eternal hell, rather from the misery we have and from ourselves with sin.......

[red77]

Red, let's look at more than just a verse taken out of a passage, but let's include it into the passage. I think Colossians is the more difficult one to understand, so I will use that one:

v 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure (meaning will) for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

v20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

v21 And although you were formerly alienated (Paul is talking to a Greek church, so here he mentions the alienation of the Gentiles, but they are no longer alienated) and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

v22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death (Because of God's work on the cross, He revealed His plan of salvation to all, not just Jews) , in order to present you before Him holy and blameless beyond reproach-

v23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard... (There is that "if" that shows we must believe and accept the gospel, which is Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, in order for any of us to be reconciled to Him.)

If at any point it sounded like I was talking down to you, I wasn't. I know you're not dumb, I just found it vital to point out some key points of that scripture along with any Jew/Gentile history that was alluded to.

Hi Anika, no apologies necessary, i didnt feel talked down to I am aware of the history and I can see the point you're making........but if i can put it this way, yes, Paul was speaking to a church.....but with any sermon I think there are general points made and ones directed at those within a church, so the first sentence is saying an absolute, its not directed at the church members but rather saying what the will or God's pleasure is going to be.....then its directed personally at the church and their part in the reconcilliation and the divine plan so to speak.....I hope that makes sense, I just know that with sermons I've attended there will have been parts said that would Glorify God and his plan and then what would be required of us within the church......

Also when it says 'if' its to appear holy and blameless......it doesnt say that if any strayed they would be condemned to hell and not reconciled to God

Edited June 7, 2006 by red77

[Brandli5]

The bible even speaks about salvation:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." John 3:16-21

"Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it. It is God himself who has made us what we are and given us new lives from Christ Jesus; and long ages ago he planned that we should spend these lives in helping others." Ephesians 2:8-10

[red77]

The bible even speaks about salvation:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." John 3:16-21

"Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it. It is God himself who has made us what we are and given us new lives from Christ Jesus; and long ages ago he planned that we should spend these lives in helping others." Ephesians 2:8-10

Er................I know the bible speaks about salvation.........there's a whole list of verses in the OP that state just that, now that I see it the verse in Ephesians speaks about what God had 'planned' as well from the long ages ago.......but can you explain how the verses in the OP tie in with ther being no salvation in the fullness of time for all..........?

[Brandli5]

The bible even speaks about salvation:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." John 3:16-21

"Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it. It is God himself who has made us what we are and given us new lives from Christ Jesus; and long ages ago he planned that we should spend these lives in helping others." Ephesians 2:8-10

Er................I know the bible speaks about salvation.........there's a whole list of verses in the OP that state just that, now that I see it the verse in Ephesians speaks about what God had 'planned' as well from the long ages ago.......but can you explain how the verses in the OP tie in with ther being no salvation in the fullness of time for all..........?

Personally I do not see any need to go further in this discussion. I have shown you what the bible says, there is no doubt in my mind that the bible tells us plainly that there is a heaven and hell, and that they both are forever. Those sent there will be there. I see plainly in the bible that we must Ask for salvation. As for the question you have asked me to answer, I am not ashamed to say I do not even understand it.

The bible in my eyes as well as many others is God's word and his instruction for our lives. I am put on this earth so that I can spread his word, as well as everyone else.

We are in the Lord's Army, and that Army's Sheild is the Lord God Himself! His word, and if we cannot take that litterally then we are doing the army injustice.

I praise GOd for his word, and sending his son to die for our sins. I just pray that everyone can learn to accept this, and ask God to for forgiveness of their sins and repent and submit their selves to him.

We are to surrender all.

May the rest of the time you are on this thread be thinking about what the bible says on this very subject.

[red77]

The bible even speaks about salvation:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." John 3:16-21

"Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it. It is God himself who has made us what we are and given us new lives from Christ Jesus; and long ages ago he planned that we should spend these lives in helping others." Ephesians 2:8-10

Er................I know the bible speaks about salvation.........there's a whole list of verses in the OP that state just that, now that I see it the verse in Ephesians speaks about what God had 'planned' as well from the long ages ago.......but can you explain how the verses in the OP tie in with ther being no salvation in the fullness of time for all..........?

Personally I do not see any need to go further in this discussion. I have shown you what the bible says, there is no doubt in my mind that the bible tells us plainly that there is a heaven and hell, and that they both are forever. Those sent there will be there. I see plainly in the bible that we must Ask for salvation. As for the question you have asked me to answer, I am not ashamed to say I do not even understand it.

The bible in my eyes as well as many others is God's word and his instruction for our lives. I am put on this earth so that I can spread his word, as well as everyone else.

We are in the Lord's Army, and that Army's Sheild is the Lord God Himself! His word, and if we cannot take that litterally then we are doing the army injustice.

I praise GOd for his word, and sending his son to die for our sins. I just pray that everyone can learn to accept this, and ask God to for forgiveness of their sins and repent and submit their selves to him.

We are to surrender all.

May the rest of the time you are on this thread be thinking about what the bible says on this very subject.

You dont understand the question? I'm sorry I thought it was pretty clear really........all these verses indicate that God will not torment people for eternity but forgive and reconcile them to himself........or do they not?

I'm afraid all you've shown me are various verses that contain the word 'hell' without actually any definition of what it actually is, no explanation of why its thrown into the lake of fire, what the lake of fire is etc..............I've answered them along with the rich man/Lazarus story unless you somehow still read that literally................. I've shown you what the bible has to say on the subject here.........you obviously just do not have an answer for these verses which refute your literal belief in an eternal hell.........I'm sorry if you're unable to provide a concise truth of just what eactly hell is or the lake of fire but that really isn't my problem, its pretty clear just going by these verses in the Bible that the vile and warped doctrine of eternal suffering for people does not hold truth.........

As for your last sentence may the same go for you........its actually the Bible that speaks of God's mercy, the very last two verses seem extremely clear on that point!

Peace

Red

[Guest SeeHimInMe]

Red,

I know u have asked for responses to the verses u listed and i will address that later today when i get home from church. I want to start by saying that when u take a topic such as yours, the salvation of all men, you must look at the totality of scriptures on the subject. Your subject if very broad so there are many scriptures that deal with the salvation of men. I think that you are focusing on the scriptures that support your belief and u are ignoring scriptures that clearly state that some people go to hell. My point is that you have to look at all sides and all of the scriptures dealing with the subject. It is unfair in the pursute of truth, which u say that you are in search of, to just look and some of the material. I wish I had more time, but i will post again later today.

God Bless

CJ