A few questions for any Christian

[Guest shiloh357]

(from Shiloh)And no you would not want God to force His Will. One of the complaints that people like you make about Christianity is that we are under some kind of mind control, and that we are to stupid to think for ourselves and are led around by the nose and told what to believe and not believe by our religious leaders.

It is the "control" aspect that people assign to Christianity that is in part abhorent to them. God imposing His Will means that you don't get to choose your own moral code. It means that you walk as your told to walk, and think only as you are allowed to think. The truth is that no matter which way God goes, He would be condemned. You can find fault in anything when you look hard enough.

Shiloh, as you well know, one of Christianity's mantras is "God has a plan for everyone". If he has a plan, how could humans possibly change this plan which has been established prior to one's birth? By this logic you are part of an already determined course in life. You do not have free will because of God's plan. God is omnipotent and omniscient--how can you change this?

This even calls into question the sensibility of prayer--maybe that's why it doesn't work. How can mere mortals change God's plan? He is omniscient and omnipotent, yet we are supposed to change his mind through prayer? When prayer doesn't work, Christians say, "It is part of God's plan". Once again, this underscores the illogicality of Christianity.

It is impossible to believe in the illogical. For example, if someone said to you "This is A and it is also not A". What could you believe about A? You wouldn't know whether it is A or not A. That's what we have here. This is why people (some) are UNABLE to accept the so-called "free gift of salvation" that has a requirement that one believe in something illogical.

Yes, God has a plan for your life. Not everything is inevitable or written in stone. God also has a Will. God has a perfect Will and a permissive Will. The difference between God's plan and His Will is that His Will is corporate, and His plan is individual. God's WILL is outlined for us in the Bible. God's perfect Will is that everyone would be saved, God's permissive Will allows man to walk away from the offer of salvation. God's perfect Will says that we should not murder. God's permissive Will allows men to make the sinful choice of murdering someone.

God's Will is the same for everyone. He has the same love, same standard of righteousness, will give the same forgiveness to anyone who asks. There is one standard for everyone.

God's Plan is individual. God calls some people into the mission field, some as Pastors. Others, God calls to simply to work in a lay position in their church. God's plan hinges on His Will. You only find the plan of God for your life when you submit to his Will.

Prayer is not for changing God's Will, or for changing God's plan. Prayer is how we find out what the Will of God is. Prayer can be supplicatory, petitionary, or simply an act of worship. You cannot just use the term "prayer" in a generic sense and expect to relate it correctly.

It is illogical, since you are operating from a faulty starting point. Of course, if my understanding the Bible were based upon the information as YOU present it, it would not make sense. When you actually know what the Bible says, it does make sense. The Bible does transcend logic, but it does not violate it. God is not in a box and is not limited to doing only what we can comprehend.

[sylvan3]

(from Shiloh)And no you would not want God to force His Will. One of the complaints that people like you make about Christianity is that we are under some kind of mind control, and that we are to stupid to think for ourselves and are led around by the nose and told what to believe and not believe by our religious leaders.

It is the "control" aspect that people assign to Christianity that is in part abhorent to them. God imposing His Will means that you don't get to choose your own moral code. It means that you walk as your told to walk, and think only as you are allowed to think. The truth is that no matter which way God goes, He would be condemned. You can find fault in anything when you look hard enough.

Shiloh, as you well know, one of Christianity's mantras is "God has a plan for everyone". If he has a plan, how could humans possibly change this plan which has been established prior to one's birth? By this logic you are part of an already determined course in life. You do not have free will because of God's plan. God is omnipotent and omniscient--how can you change this?

This even calls into question the sensibility of prayer--maybe that's why it doesn't work. How can mere mortals change God's plan? He is omniscient and omnipotent, yet we are supposed to change his mind through prayer? When prayer doesn't work, Christians say, "It is part of God's plan". Once again, this underscores the illogicality of Christianity.

It is impossible to believe in the illogical. For example, if someone said to you "This is A and it is also not A". What could you believe about A? You wouldn't know whether it is A or not A. That's what we have here. This is why people (some) are UNABLE to accept the so-called "free gift of salvation" that has a requirement that one believe in something illogical.

Yes, God has a plan for your life. Not everything is inevitable or written in stone. God also has a Will. God has a perfect Will and a permissive Will. The difference between God's plan and His Will is that His Will is corporate, and His plan is individual. God's WILL is outlined for us in the Bible. God's perfect Will is that everyone would be saved, God's permissive Will allows man to walk away from the offer of salvation. God's perfect Will says that we should not murder. God's permissive Will allows men to make the sinful choice of murdering someone.

God's Will is the same for everyone. He has the same love, same standard of righteousness, will give the same forgiveness to anyone who asks. There is one standard for everyone.

God's Plan is individual. God calls some people into the mission field, some as Pastors. Others, God calls to simply to work in a lay position in their church. God's plan hinges on His Will. You only find the plan of God for your life when you submit to his Will.

Prayer is not for changing God's Will, or for changing God's plan. Prayer is how we find out what the Will of God is. Prayer can be supplicatory, petitionary, or simply an act of worship. You cannot just use the term "prayer" in a generic sense and expect to relate it correctly.

It is illogical, since you are operating from a faulty starting point. Of course, if my understanding the Bible were based upon the information as YOU present it, it would not make sense. When you actually know what the Bible says, it does make sense. The Bible does transcend logic, but it does not violate it. God is not in a box and is not limited to doing only what we can comprehend.

I am attempting to understand the Bible based on what the concepts of perfection, omniscience, and omnipotence entail. The Bible, because it presents God in anthropomorphic contradictions to those three concepts, most certainly violates logic. Your response to these contradictions is to basically say, "no, it doesn't violate logic", without fully explaining how a perfect deity can create something that he eventually is unhappy with, knowing that he would eventually be unhappy with it, and complaining because he is unhappy with it. This makes no sense, and I don't see how my putting that out there for consideration is some sort of distortion or faulty premise which you frequently assert.

Also, by stating that God is not in a box and not limited to what we can comprehend, you are venturing into the area of agnosticism. I frequently hear from Christians that they don't understand God. Well, they apparently understand him well enough that they are comfortable with the concept of a person appearing at Judgment Day and being dropped through the trap door to burn for eternity because the person "didn't understand."(i.e. someone who can't accept Christ because he or she finds the concept illogical due to not understanding the contradictions).

[WayneB]

Wayne, I know this was well-intended, but some people said this to me when I lost my daughter and it was really awful. By this measure, Andrea Yates is a saint! She unselfishly sent all her kids to Heaven, rather than gamble that they might grow up to be lost. Everyone who aborts a baby is selflessly freeing their children to be in heaven, rather than have to go through this world of sorrows.

The difference as I see it? Andrea Yates is not God. She exercised her will rather than trust God...just as all those who abort an unborn child. David's story found in 2 Samuel chapter 12 is about a sinful man who repents and pleads with God but then accepts God's will. He simply places all his trust in God. He didn't take matters in his own hands; he simply trusted God. Honestly, I don't see how you could come to that conclusion and draw these comparisons. One thing though...maybe all those people were just trying to comfort you. I don't think they meant to offend. It is hard for us to comfort someone when we haven't experienced the situation ourselves. It is not always easy to effectively empathize.

Now my turn for a question: God forbid but what if one of your children rejects you totally? What if they refuse correction and go down a destructive path? What if they refuse to acknowledge you and will not speak to you? Would your love for them wane over time? Would you still sacrifice your life willingly for them? Would you sacrifice the life of one of your other children to save them? See, there is the difference between us and God. The Father sent HIS Son to suffer and die on a Cross and the Son went willingly for us... while we were still His enemies. That is perfect and divine love.

I am sure that I would grieve it; it is like a death in many ways. I don't know for sure, but I doubt that my love for them would wane over time, I mean, look at the story of the Prodigal Son. The Father still longed for the child to come back. I could never imagine chosing one of my children over the other, so that is not a scenario I could ever even guess at.

It is tough to imagine but that is exactly what God did for us. I also doubt my love would wane but we aren't God. We often allow our emotions to control us and anger is a powerful emotion. I cannot honestly say that my concern for my rebellious child would not wane. I see too many inmates who have been totally rejected by family because they stole from them to buy drugs and got parents heavily and fraudulently into credit card debt. I can understand the parents somewhat; these are parents and grandparents who did everything they knew to do for their sons and sons who lied, cheated and stole from them, not once but many times. Remember that the prodigal son repented and was on his way home. The Father didn't chase after him when he left to seek his own will but met him halfway when he was returning home. If we want to live in our Father's house, we must turn away from the world and return to HIM. He'll do all the work. All we have to do is decide. That's the message of the prodigal.

One thing about Jesus dying, though, is that he was coming back again. That was another thing people said to me when I lost Lydia. They would say, "God knows how you feel; remember he lost his child, too." But He was coming back in three days (or two, or one and a half; another minor point I've never understood. ). I hadn't even gotten past shock at three days past her death! It wouldn't have been quite so bad if her death was three days long. Especially if I had known ahead of time.

I really do see your hurt. I am so very sorry about you losing Lydia. I must stay on course here though. I honestly believe without any doubt that your child's spirit is in God's worthy hands and has been from the moment the silver chord was severed freeing her spirit from her body. I also believe that one day at the end of time as we know it, when Jesus will stand upon the earth, Lydia will see God in her FLESH... just as Job described in Job 19:26.

Our short lives on this earth are only the beginning.

One more point. The death of Christ is not the only thing that grieved the Father. Jesus was rejected by those HE came to save. Moreover, Jesus took our sin on HIM and experienced the pain of separation from the Father. So to put it in perspective and drawing a better comparison: consider what you would do if your child was murdered and the murderer who separated you from your child is sitting in jail serving a life term. Could you forgive him? Would you take his place in jail and serve his sentence? God would...and has.

emeraldgirl, I'm not trying to offend and forgive me if I have. I just sense an anger with God and an unwillingness to empathize with HIM. I cannot begin to imagine the pain you have endured; I am so very sorry about Lydia. All I can do is share my FAITH and experience, which is what I have tried to do.

You are a lovely person. I'd like to here more about Lydia but do not want cause any pain. Maybe later.

May the Lord comfort and bless you richly,

Wayne

[emeraldgirl]

Shiloh, you repeatedly presume to know what is in the minds of others. How do you know what someone wishes to know? You sit in the judgement seat, judging who is "worthy" of your goldmine of answers. If the answer you give does not make sense to the person you gave it to, you have no patience to work through it at all, you simply degenerate into insults and mindreading.

I am currently returning to my earlier work of simply reading right through the scriptures, as I discussed with Wayne. Here I am, in Numbers. Not an easy read for someone who is wrestling with just what Sylvan spoke of - a God who continues to get angry over the actions of His people, though being omniscient, nothing should surprise him at all. God, in the Pentatuche (sp?) has a hair-trigger temper. People will be killed for looking at holy articles. Fire will come down from heaven when people complain. God will kill Moses for failing to circumsize his son, but then will relent when they grab a handy piece of flint and cut off the infant's foreskin. And on and on and on. It is no wonder that anyone should struggle with the Bible or the images of God contained there.

And Sylvan's point is a good one; it was the major difficulty I also had throughout my twenties. "All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." pens the Psalmist. So, if you were cut down in a shower of bullets, was that ordained for you? Or did God just pick the day and Satan was the one who decided what horrifying end was in store for you? You said in an earlier post that God doesn't plan, say, babies who come from rape. How do you know that? So many thousands of people arrived here with no plan because they came here by sinful avenues? Only people conceived in love in a marriage are recognized by God and have a plan? I don't much wrestle with this problem any more, but it was a big one for me for ten years. Either God controls the beginning and end of every life or he controls it not at all. So I think it's not at all. Perhaps God has things he would like each to do while they're here, the way a parent might have ideas about what their child will do, but ultimately, when someone dies or is conceived, these are just biological facts.

Prayer is not for changing God's Will, or for changing God's plan. Prayer is how we find out what the Will of God is. Prayer can be supplicatory, petitionary, or simply an act of worship. You cannot just use the term "prayer" in a generic sense and expect to relate it correctly.

People pray both to change God's Will and God's plan. You say God's Will is about salvation. Then why does anyone pray that Aunt Sally will come to Christ? People pray to change God's plan when they pray, "Please deliver my husband from Cancer. Please help me find a new job. Please help Shiloh repent from his arrogance." For a while, I even tried a worship-only approach to prayer. But how long can you say how wonderful God is? And if you are suffereing, it's not even honest if you're not feeling it. Easy to praise God when everything is going swell. When everything stinks - not so much.

Petitionary prayer seems to me to have a lot in common with spells and incantations. Just look at the popularity of books such as "The Prayer of Jabez" and "Prayers that Avail Much". People want to tap the Divine power and put it to work in their benefit, that is why these books have such appeal. They want a formula where they can just say this prayer in this way and watch the miracles happen.

When it comes to prayer revealing to a person what God's will is, that is another minefield. Because no one hears God in an audible voice that I know of, we are to "hear" God in our spirit. Well, no problem there, I have "heard" God in my spirit. Or maybe it's my own thoughts - AHH!! There's the problem! I've heard people say God "spoke" to them or "called" them to do this or that, only to have it go disasterously, or for them to bow out later, or for the thing to be wrong in the first place. For example, I watched a documentary on polygamy where the man sincerely sat there and told how God "spoke" to him to choose the sister of his wife for his second wife. He noted that David was a "Man after God's own heart" and that he had many wives and concubines. Well, he's right about that! A friend of mine heard God "speak" to him about quitting his job and joining a Christian voluntary organization, much to his wife's objection. A year later, he had to resume paying work because - guess what? - they had nothing to live on! Does that mean he misheard God the first time? Or that his faith quailed when things looked bleak? Or that God only meant for him to do it for a period of time and then quit? I have no idea. I'm not picking on these people; I'm wondering how any of us is supposed to know. Because I've been so sure before, too, but later wondered if I wasn't just superimposing my own hopes onto my prayers.

[emeraldgirl]

Wayne, you are very sweet. You haven't offended me at all. Really, I don't have any expectations anymore of people saying the "right" thing about my daughter's death, but I don't mind setting someone straight about things that do hurt. (And JFTR, I spent a year on a Christian grief board and over and over parents would say the same things hurt them. "The child is in heaven" or "You can have another child" or "At least you have another child/other children" or "Well, you don't know how bad their life might have been" or "Well, maybe God was saving them because He knew later they would be lost" or "God knows how you feel" or - the worst one of all "You need to move on/be over this by now/be thankful for what you do have." ) I don't mind pointing out to people if they say something like this, that it is not helpful. But it doesn't really offend me in a personal way any more; I know people will not know what is best to say if they haven't been through it.

Trust God - ah, that is what I don't know if I could ever do again. It's easier just to conclude that God is not involved.

But we'll see.

[WayneB]

Wayne, you are very sweet. You haven't offended me at all. Really, I don't have any expectations anymore of people saying the "right" thing about my daughter's death, but I don't mind setting someone straight about things that do hurt. (And JFTR, I spent a year on a Christian grief board and over and over parents would say the same things hurt them. "The child is in heaven" or "You can have another child" or "At least you have another child/other children" or "Well, you don't know how bad their life might have been" or "Well, maybe God was saving them because He knew later they would be lost" or "God knows how you feel" or - the worst one of all "You need to move on/be over this by now/be thankful for what you do have." ) I don't mind pointing out to people if they say something like this, that it is not helpful. But it doesn't really offend me in a personal way any more; I know people will not know what is best to say if they haven't been through it.

Trust God - ah, that is what I don't know if I could ever do again. It's easier just to conclude that God is not involved.

But we'll see.

God bless you sister. Thank you for sharing. I really am trying to learn how to respond to people better. I've always been a "fixer"; you know they type. I'd be one of those to say something stupid. What I have learned, though, is that sometimes the best thing to do is just listen and hug them...and give them time.

God is with us and involved. Like I said, all you have to do is seek HIM with your heart and mind...and listen for His whisper.

Love ya',

Wayne

[WayneB]

When it comes to prayer revealing to a person what God's will is, that is another minefield. Because no one hears God in an audible voice that I know of, we are to "hear" God in our spirit. Well, no problem there, I have "heard" God in my spirit. Or maybe it's my own thoughts - AHH!! There's the problem! I've heard people say God "spoke" to them or "called" them to do this or that, only to have it go disasterously, or for them to bow out later, or for the thing to be wrong in the first place. For example, I watched a documentary on polygamy where the man sincerely sat there and told how God "spoke" to him to choose the sister of his wife for his second wife. He noted that David was a "Man after God's own heart" and that he had many wives and concubines. Well, he's right about that! A friend of mine heard God "speak" to him about quitting his job and joining a Christian voluntary organization, much to his wife's objection. A year later, he had to resume paying work because - guess what? - they had nothing to live on! Does that mean he misheard God the first time? Or that his faith quailed when things looked bleak? Or that God only meant for him to do it for a period of time and then quit? I have no idea. I'm not picking on these people; I'm wondering how any of us is supposed to know. Because I've been so sure before, too, but later wondered if I wasn't just superimposing my own hopes onto my prayers.

I understand your point. Do you know how I know it's God and not me? Let me give you an example.

As a young man, I was prideful, arrogant and knew it all. I was an engineer officer in the United States Army and had NO tolerance for criminal behavior. "Lock them up! Hang them high!" was my position when it came to criminals. Long story short, I got out of the Army in 1984 and started my career in the civilian world. Some years later, I came to believe God and accept HIS free gift of Grace. Now the fun began.

I was slowly transformed but yet, I still held my position regarding inmates. Then in 1999, a fella from my church got caught with drugs and was sentenced to 2 years in jail. The Methodist Church here had a program then where they brought a handful of inmates over to their fellowship hall every other Sunday and fed them. I decided to go one Sunday and visit my buddy.

One thing led to another and one door opened after another and before I knew it, I was in the jail every Monday night BY MYSELF teaching and ministering to 60 or so inmates! Me, the guy who would NEVER have had anything to do with these men. What changed? I did. How did I change? God. I experienced God. Was I really by myself? NO..I had God with me. Now I have another fella that helps out as well as my sons when they can.

I can honestly say that I do NOT always look forward to Monday nights, especially after a long hard day at the office, BUT I have never left the jail without feeling energized. I have worked with and hugged addicts, thieves, pedophiles, and even men who have killed. I am very honest with the men and make sure they know...it ain't me but is God who sends me. What was God thinking? Sending me to minister to inmates????? I figured it out though. God did it for me as well as them. It was part of my learning process and growth. He taught me how to have compassion for the sinner without accepting or condoning their sin.

So how do we know it is God? Open doors that sometimes leads us to a place that we do NOT want to go.

[sylvan3]

Excellent writing, Emeraldgirl!

[CellShade]

When it comes to prayer revealing to a person what God's will is, that is another minefield. Because no one hears God in an audible voice that I know of, we are to "hear" God in our spirit. Well, no problem there, I have "heard" God in my spirit. Or maybe it's my own thoughts - AHH!! There's the problem! I've heard people say God "spoke" to them or "called" them to do this or that, only to have it go disasterously, or for them to bow out later, or for the thing to be wrong in the first place. For example, I watched a documentary on polygamy where the man sincerely sat there and told how God "spoke" to him to choose the sister of his wife for his second wife. He noted that David was a "Man after God's own heart" and that he had many wives and concubines. Well, he's right about that! A friend of mine heard God "speak" to him about quitting his job and joining a Christian voluntary organization, much to his wife's objection. A year later, he had to resume paying work because - guess what? - they had nothing to live on! Does that mean he misheard God the first time? Or that his faith quailed when things looked bleak? Or that God only meant for him to do it for a period of time and then quit? I have no idea. I'm not picking on these people; I'm wondering how any of us is supposed to know. Because I've been so sure before, too, but later wondered if I wasn't just superimposing my own hopes onto my prayers.

I understand your point. Do you know how I know it's God and not me? Let me give you an example.

As a young man, I was prideful, arrogant and knew it all. I was an engineer officer in the United States Army and had NO tolerance for criminal behavior. "Lock them up! Hang them high!" was my position when it came to criminals. Long story short, I got out of the Army in 1984 and started my career in the civilian world. Some years later, I came to believe God and accept HIS free gift of Grace. Now the fun began.

I was slowly transformed but yet, I still held my position regarding inmates. Then in 1999, a fella from my church got caught with drugs and was sentenced to 2 years in jail. The Methodist Church here had a program then where they brought a handful of inmates over to their fellowship hall every other Sunday and fed them. I decided to go one Sunday and visit my buddy.

One thing led to another and one door opened after another and before I knew it, I was in the jail every Monday night BY MYSELF teaching and ministering to 60 or so inmates! Me, the guy who would NEVER have had anything to do with these men. What changed? I did. How did I change? God. I experienced God. Was I really by myself? NO..I had God with me. Now I have another fella that helps out as well as my sons when they can.

I can honestly say that I do NOT always look forward to Monday nights, especially after a long hard day at the office, BUT I have never left the jail without feeling energized. I have worked with and hugged addicts, thieves, pedophiles, and even men who have killed. I am very honest with the men and make sure they know...it ain't me but is God who sends me. What was God thinking? Sending me to minister to inmates????? I figured it out though. God did it for me as well as them. It was part of my learning process and growth. He taught me how to have compassion for the sinner without accepting or condoning their sin.

So how do we know it is God? Open doors that sometimes leads us to a place that we do NOT want to go.

Beautiful story, my 55 year old father does the same aswell, goes every wednesday, and aswell killers ,addicts and thiefs hug him and even protect him from the other inmates .

But how God changed you is pretty impresive .

Emerald Girl, I haven't read all the thread, but I see your last 2 or 3 post like sincere and polite and I appreciate that .

I see you lost a child, honestly I am very sorry with all my heart. And I really can't imagine that pain and suffering it bringed.

One thing though I can assure you, God doesn't give sickness to people, God is a God of love rather then of pain and suffering.

I honestly don't really know why your son or daughter died, I don't know.

But it wasn't God that wanted her to die, or to have an illness.

I still though can say, that God knows why it happened or for what, but I can assure you it wasn't Him that killed your kid.

In regards to God and His plan and Will.

It's God's will that we don't perish , but have ever lasting life.

God's plan? Same as His will but with other thing's to keep in mind:

How people will react to God.

How people will relate to God.

How people will react to the World.

How people will relate to the World.

How people will Choose, in what way they will relate to God and to the world.

(I refer to the world as in all the things in it, including all religions, events example natural disasters, believes, what we do in life, to name a few.)

All this things affect God's plan and how we relate to He's plan .

Blessings, Cell.

[WayneB]

Beautiful story, my 55 year old father does the same aswell, goes every wednesday, and aswell killers ,addicts and thiefs hug him and even protect him from the other inmates

Awesome. God Bless your father for his obedience. I have had the same experience. I have NO fear because most of the fellas actually look out for me (and the Lord is by my side). Ocassionally I get a young disruptor when I teach, BUT the older inmates put a stop to it quick. The guards no longer feel they have to keep an eye on things.

One of the other fellas that goes into the jail (not with me but at a different time) is an 84 year old brother who teaches life skills every Tuesday night AND teaches Sunday School every Sunday morning. He is a dear brother in Christ and proof that the Lord will always use an obedient servant. All they have to say is, "Here I am Lord. Send me!" He is someone I look up to and is dear to my heart. He also takes care of his 94+ year old mother-in-law who is bedridden (he is a bit older than his wife).

May the Lord Bless you (and your father) richly,

Wayne