Why Atonement anyway?

[TheProcess]

and like i said to process, you know the consequences of rejection, you know the consequences of acceptance. what you do with that knowledge is a choice only you can make.

As far as I know, there is no offer of salvation through Jesus. So I do not "know" the consequences of acceptance or rejection. For me to believe that there is an offer of salvation I would have to believe that the Bible is the word of God.

[TheProcess]

Well if you know with "absolute certainty" that the Bible is the word of God then I guess the Christian doesn't need faith...

It is by faith that we believe.

Why do you need faith if you have "absolute certainty"?

[TheProcess]

i have no doubt the Bible comes from God. you see, once you make that decision to give your life to Him, or even if you're truly seeking and ask God to reveal Himself to you, the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to that which you currently are unable (and unwilling) to see. God's nature is revealed, and God makes sure that you know with absolute certainty that He exists and that the Bible is His word.

I have seen plenty of Christians arguing over what the Bible teaches. Now these Christians all think that they are guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretation of scripture. Either the Holy Spirit teaches Christians to understand the Bible in contradictory ways, or otherwise it is easy for Christians to be deluded into thinking they are guided by the Holy Spirit when they actually aren't.

[TheProcess]

Where in the Old Testament does it say that our "very own blood" is required to atone for our sins?

I'm glad you asked. Let me show you.

First and foremost, let us get the end result...

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

[Romans 6:23 - KJV]

Ok - so sin = death

We've established that.

Now, HOW is this death obtained? Well, according to God, it's through the shedding of blood...

Let us have a look:

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

[Genesis 9:5-6 - KJV]

Because Cain took his brother's life, God said atonement is through blood.

Now, if we look at Jewish Law (Leviticus), we can see where burnt offerings and blood offerings are made (sheeding of blood):

"If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."

[Leviticus 1:3-5 - KJV]

Now, as you can see, we're gutting a few animals for the atonement of sins, and tithes, and such. You will find many such reference for various purposes in the book of Leviticus.

But now, for the ultimate blood offering... Jesus Christ... the final atoinment for mankind...

Prior to Christ's crucifixion, Christ broke bread and called it His "body". He served a cup of wine, and called it His "Blood". - The Last Supper. If you read through Leviticus, you will notice most offerings are in the form of flesh and blood. Is this starting to sound familliar?

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

[Matthew 26:26-28 - KJV]

Now, Jesus' death...

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

[John 3:16-17 - KJV]

As you can see, this verse mentioned no flesh or blood. But if you can imagine driving a spike through both your wrists and your feet after you've been scourged and beaten, I'm sure you can figure out there's some major blood shed from the flesh here.

This is why Christ is also called the "Lamb" - because a traditional offering was a pure white, unblemshied lamb.

With a bit of reading of the Bible on your behalf, you will begin to see a common thread; a theme throughout the Bible. A theme of God's hatred for sin, His love for those who follow Him, the own sacrifice to save mankind, and the choice for all men (women included) to choose Him or deny Him, regardless of how much the denial hurts Him.

Quite poetic, ironic, and tragic - Gives Shakespeare a run for his money, doesn't it?

I can't see an anwer to the question here.

[SoulGrind]

I can't see an anwer to the question here.

Oh brother! DO YOU NOT READ?

YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION:

Where in the Old Testament does it say that our "very own blood" is required to atone for our sins?

AND THE ORIGINAL ANSWER:

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

[Genesis 9:5-6 - KJV]

I just went into further detail as to why.

This is why so many fail to understand Christianity. They want everything handed them on a silver platter as if they were incapable of looking for themselves.

Good day!

[Guest LadyC]

soulgrind, it's obvious that process, and possibly some of the others as well, have no desire to listen, learn, or even try to know who Jesus is. his purpose here appears to be only to try and get a reaction out of christians. maybe if he can succeed in getting christians riled up it will justify in his mind his own sinfulness. NEWS FLASH to process, we're all sinners.

anyway, there's no point IMO in continuing in this discussion at all. anything we say falls on completely deaf ears. i don't see any "seekers" here. i, for one, have to leave the thread because i'm beginning to get annoyed.

[TheProcess]

I can't see an anwer to the question here.

Oh brother! DO YOU NOT READ?

YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION:

Where in the Old Testament does it say that our "very own blood" is required to atone for our sins?

AND THE ORIGINAL ANSWER:

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

[Genesis 9:5-6 - KJV]

I just went into further detail as to why.

This is why so many fail to understand Christianity. They want everything handed them on a silver platter as if they were incapable of looking for themselves.

Good day!

You are saying that "And surely your blood of your lives will I require" is related to sacrifice?

[TheProcess]

soulgrind, it's obvious that process, and possibly some of the others as well, have no desire to listen, learn, or even try to know who Jesus is. his purpose here appears to be only to try and get a reaction out of christians. maybe if he can succeed in getting christians riled up it will justify in his mind his own sinfulness. NEWS FLASH to process, we're all sinners.

This is nothing but a personal attack. I haven't indulged in personal attacks against Christians here, it would be nice if they could give me the same courtesy.

[Guest LadyC]

this will be my last response. process, this isn't a personal attack, it's an astute observation. you seem to wish to stir up a hornets nest and seem to have no interest in knowing God. i said in a previous post, if you'll remember, that you might succeed in aggravating folks, and you made the assumption (i think it was you) that i was already annoyed and suggested i restrict posting to other forums. i informed you that i was not yet annoyed, and that when i became annoyed, i would abandon the discussion. that is what i'm doing. your attitude has gotten under my skin because you've made it apparent that you really have no desire to change your mind, your opinion, or anything else. you may not make personal attacks on the posters (and despite your accusation, i have not made a personal attack against you), but you do make numerous personal attacks on the character of God.

i hope you find what you're looking for process... and i pray that one day you'll start looking for what really matters... Jesus.

[TheProcess]

Where in the Old Testament does it say that our "very own blood" is required to atone for our sins?

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

[Genesis 9:5-6 - KJV]

A couple of other translations:

Genesis 9:5-6 (CEV) I created humans to be like me, and I will punish any animal or person that takes a human life. If an animal kills someone, that animal must die. And if a person takes the life of another, that person must be put to death.

Genesis 9:5-6 (GNT) If anyone takes human life, he will be punished. I will punish with death any animal that takes a human life. Human beings were made like God, so whoever murders one of them will be killed by someone else.

It doesn't seem to be about blood being required to atone for sin.