Why Atonement anyway?

[TheProcess]

this will be my last response. process, this isn't a personal attack, it's an astute observation. you seem to wish to stir up a hornets nest

What is this based on? That I wish to "stir up a hornets nest"? What you are saying is nothing but opinion, you are making guesses about my character and intention. And on this basis you are making a personal attack on me.

you made the assumption (i think it was you) that i was already annoyed and suggested i restrict posting to other forums.

I didn't make the assumption you claim. What I said:

I am not trying to annoy anyone here. If you get annoyed using this part of the site, you should consider restricting yourself to the forums that are only for Christians.

I said that if you get annoyed...

you've made it apparent that you really have no desire to change your mind, your opinion, or anything else.

This is more personal attack. What basis you have for this I have no idea.

[Guest LadyC]

you SEEM. process, the word seem indicates opinion. i make no attacks. you are, by continuing to bait me. if i've offended you, i apologize. it was not my attention. i was making observations based on your words and attitudes and how they appeared to me... appeared is another word i've used in those posts you say are attacking.

i'm unsubscribing from this thread so i won't be baited further.

[Fiosh]

I'm sorry if I'm being a pain.

Part of what is so annoying about the whole Atonement concept is this: Why is atonement needed anyway?

Please don't say "Because God is holy and we sin."

Here's my analogy. Say I'm your landlord and you owe me $10 million dollars. You can never pay the debt. So, because I love you, I say, "Okay, look, my son will pay it for you. I'm going to sell everything he owns and then sell him into slavery to come up with the ransom for your debt."

The one part that makes no sense is that I'm the landlord in the first place! I could just cancel the debt. If *I* am the one making the requirement, why do I need to create any gymnastics to free you from the debt?

Hi Emeraldgirl,

I'd like to add a thought --- I hope you're still following the thread.

Everyone gave you lots of reasons to explain why atonement is needed. And much of it makes sense.

But I think you can approach this a bit differently. You can admit that it is not possible to totally understand the mind of God. The real question then becomes, "Do I trust God enough to be able to simply accept that He will always do the right thing?"

The key to Christian faith is not to arrive at the point where everything is crystal clear. It will never happen.

God revealed Himself to us thru Jesus. By the power of the Holy Spirit we are drawn into a relationship---a friendship---with Jesus. We learn to trust Him. Just as we learn to trust our human friends.

I trust my husband. If he tells me my brakes are fixed and it's ok to drive my car --- I know it's safe. I know nothing about auto mechanics, but I know he does. And I know he would never hurt me. So I hop in my car and go.

I trust God. He has proven Himself faithful time and time again. Yes, I study His word and learn all I can about church doctrine and teachings. But in the final analysis, it's a trust issue.

IMHO

Why does God create a world where there exists a need for atonement?

I dunno?

God bless your seeking, emeraldgirl.

Peace,

Fiosh

[emeraldgirl]

Foish, I wasn't planning to come back, but since you seemed to make an honest effort, I wanted to answer the things you said:

The real question then becomes, "Do I trust God enough to be able to simply accept that He will always do the right thing?"

And that is why I have lost the faith. I don't trust him to do the right thing. He does whatever he pleases and I have to cope with whatever he does. He owes me no explaination, but he can shatter my world if he likes. Or else my life has not much to do with God. He's not overseeing everything, intervening or deciding which prayer is worthy to be answered. The later is working better for me now. It's better than thinking I trusted God and he wrecked my life.

We learn to trust Him. Just as we learn to trust our human friends.

I trust my husband. If he tells me my brakes are fixed and it's ok to drive my car --- I know it's safe. I know nothing about auto mechanics, but I know he does. And I know he would never hurt me. So I hop in my car and go.

I trust God. He has proven Himself faithful time and time again. Yes, I study His word and learn all I can about church doctrine and teachings. But in the final analysis, it's a trust issue.

Yes, that is why I can't do it anymore! I trust my husband, too, because the 16 years I've known him, he's proven he's "got my back". He never sits back with the power to keep me from pain and just lets it fall on me. But that is what God did. He "asked" me to trust Him. Then, he let my world shatter. And what is the explaination for that? Because "all things work together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose"? I can tell good from bad. If God can't or won't protect me when it really matters, why delude myself into thinking , "Oh, but it's all working together for good, even though it looks like horse crap now."

When the trust is gone, the relationship fails. But I did "taste and see that the Lord is good". He wasn't. In any other relationship, I have no trouble deciding what happens next. The untrustworthy friend is axed.

So, I don't know. I was just thinking today about how much I loved really being a Christian, really believing it all. I was listening to the CD in my baby's room playing, "I Can Only Imagine" and I was reminicing about how nice it was to really believe that. But I feel like I did when I finally had to acknowledge that there was no Santa Clause and he wasn't going to bring me any gift my parents couldn't afford. Sad to see him go, but can't believe in it anymore. I know God isn't going to protect me, or make my path smooth or straight, or give me wisdom. There's no apparent benefit to being a praying Christian, if the answer is "Yes, No or Maybe", which is the same thing it would be if I didn't pray.

[Fiosh]

Foish, I wasn't planning to come back, but since you seemed to make an honest effort, I wanted to answer the things you said:

The real question then becomes, "Do I trust God enough to be able to simply accept that He will always do the right thing?"

And that is why I have lost the faith. I don't trust him to do the right thing. He does whatever he pleases and I have to cope with whatever he does. He owes me no explaination, but he can shatter my world if he likes. Or else my life has not much to do with God. He's not overseeing everything, intervening or deciding which prayer is worthy to be answered. The later is working better for me now. It's better than thinking I trusted God and he wrecked my life.

We learn to trust Him. Just as we learn to trust our human friends.

I trust my husband. If he tells me my brakes are fixed and it's ok to drive my car --- I know it's safe. I know nothing about auto mechanics, but I know he does. And I know he would never hurt me. So I hop in my car and go.

I trust God. He has proven Himself faithful time and time again. Yes, I study His word and learn all I can about church doctrine and teachings. But in the final analysis, it's a trust issue.

Yes, that is why I can't do it anymore! I trust my husband, too, because the 16 years I've known him, he's proven he's "got my back". He never sits back with the power to keep me from pain and just lets it fall on me. But that is what God did. He "asked" me to trust Him. Then, he let my world shatter. And what is the explaination for that? Because "all things work together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose"? I can tell good from bad. If God can't or won't protect me when it really matters, why delude myself into thinking , "Oh, but it's all working together for good, even though it looks like horse crap now."

When the trust is gone, the relationship fails. But I did "taste and see that the Lord is good". He wasn't. In any other relationship, I have no trouble deciding what happens next. The untrustworthy friend is axed.

So, I don't know. I was just thinking today about how much I loved really being a Christian, really believing it all. I was listening to the CD in my baby's room playing, "I Can Only Imagine" and I was reminicing about how nice it was to really believe that. But I feel like I did when I finally had to acknowledge that there was no Santa Clause and he wasn't going to bring me any gift my parents couldn't afford. Sad to see him go, but can't believe in it anymore. I know God isn't going to protect me, or make my path smooth or straight, or give me wisdom. There's no apparent benefit to being a praying Christian, if the answer is "Yes, No or Maybe", which is the same thing it would be if I didn't pray.

I honestly understand what you are saying , and how difficult it must be for you ......and must have been for you ....to let go of your faith. There have been discussions here at WB about whether you can come to faith purely thru reason. I don't think you can, because some things just don't make sense; at least, not from a human standpoint.

When I say that God has proved Himself faithful, I'm not saying that I have never had pain or disappointment in my life. But I have seen how He's used it to help me to grow. I can honestly say that my greatest joy comes from serving God in and thru His people. It is the pain I've experienced that makes it possible for me to empathize with people I try to put an arm around.

Where you are-----believing that God has little to do with your life-----is a tough place to come back from. Hopefully, at some point you'll find that you harbor real anger against God for how He's treated you. When you come back at God, honestly, with that pain and that anger---really let Him have it---it's then that He will show you how much He cares. Another poster called God a gentleman, because He won't force Himself into your life. He won't. You need to invite Him in.

He knows your anger is born of pain, and as He is full of gentleness and compassion, He will not turn from your anger. He will pull you into His heart.

Dear sister, I pray that you will find your way home. He loves you so much. He's watching down the road waiting for your return.

Peace,

Fiosh

[TheProcess]

you SEEM. process, the word seem indicates opinion. i make no attacks. you are, by continuing to bait me. if i've offended you, i apologize. it was not my attention. i was making observations based on your words and attitudes and how they appeared to me... appeared is another word i've used in those posts you say are attacking.

You haven't offended me, but I do find it annoying having to deal with people who instead of addressing the issues want to waste time by making personal attacks. If you used the words "seem" and "appeared" in your posts then big deal. The point is that you are off into the territory of discussing me as a person -- in a negative way -- rather than responding on the issues under discussion.

[TheProcess]

This is why so many fail to understand Christianity. They want everything handed them on a silver platter as if they were incapable of looking for themselves.

Good day!

As I said, the verses do not seem to support your claim. Are there any other Christians here who agree with SoulGrind on this point? Are there Bible commentaries which support such an interpretation?

SoulGrind, could you provide a justification for what you say the verses mean?

[TheProcess]

I will quote something the Bible says about the Jesus sacrifice:

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Hebrews 9:22-26 KJV)

"and without shedding of blood is no remission"

As I have said, this isn't true. In Judaism blood sacrifice is one way to atone for sin, but it isn't the only way. So this argument given by the New Testament about why Jesus had to be sacrificed is built on a false premise.

It is also worth pointing out that there could never have been an eyewitness to the Atonement. Obviously people could have watched Jesus die, but they couldn't witness his death atoning for sin.