Why Atonement anyway?

[Guest LadyC]

if she was addicted to heroine, i would do everything in my power to put her in rehab. but i've known a lot of addicts in my life, and rehab doesn't always work. the desire to use drugs will always be there and most people who get cleaned up get dirty again. so it's still their choice.

fortunately she's not addicted to heroine. she had other issues though.

anyway, my husband is home and it's nearly 8 pm, so i have to go get dinner started and let someone else pick up the conversation.

[emeraldgirl]

emerald, may i ask the same question of you? do you know Jesus?

you're incorrect, we CAN know for a fact, and we CAN know for sure what God expects, because it's in His written word. Mormon's believe in the book of Mormon... the words of joseph smith... which contradict the word of God in many, many instances. the muslims believe Christ was a man, a prophet, but not the living Son of God. i don't know what the JW's believe in, so i can't speak with any intelligence there. but if they're believing anything other than the written word of God, then they are believing in the wrong thing. God's word says that if we believe in our heart and confess with our tongue that Jesus is the living Son of the living God, who IS God, and who sacrificed His life for ours, and then rose again on the third day, then we will be spared from hell. THAT is what God expects of us, and we can know that without any doubt whatsoever.

and we do have every opportunity to accept. God's word also says that nobody will die without knowing their options, so that none will be without excuse. if nobody is around to tell them of Jesus's sacrifice, the rocks will cry out and let them know. so we all have the choice, and we all have ample opportunity to choose heaven over hell.

Lady C, yes, I know Jesus. I have no label. I was a Christian for at least six years, or else 15, or since childhhood, depends on where you start from. In some ways, I still see myself as a Christian, but I'm not recognized that way here. I'm sort of a Deist with a more personal twist on God, who also believes in Jesus. Or a very liberal Christian that some will call a heretic. Or whatever.

But see, here's the rub - Mormans believe in the Book of Mormon, which is God's Word revealed to Joe Smith. Of course, to you and I, and anyone who doesn't give a hoot about the Book of Mormon, they believe in a book written by Joe Smith. The Muslims believe in the Koran, which is God's Word revealed to Muhammed. And the JW's believe in the Bible, as they interpret it (and I think "edit" it - I think the JW Bible is not identical to "yours". I could be wrong about that, though.)

So what does a Christian believe, to a non-Christian? Christians believe in a book, written a long time ago by 40 or so different men. There are many difficulties with believing in the Bible, at least for someone who doesn't now believe it to be God's Word. And Christians believe in traditions of the church, as some things have little scriptural basis but a long church tradition as a basis for belief. I have believed in the Bible, but I don't think I could do that again. I know too much about what's in there.

I have a little joke. I think it's funny, but maybe it won't be appreciated. The joke goes:

"What do you call a person who has read the entire Bible?"

A: "an atheist"

But anyway, the thing about "the rocks crying out" - now doesn't that seem a little silly to you? Do you think the Native Americans who were living here before the Europeans "conquered" the land were seeking Something to believe in and the rocks said, "Jesus!" but they said, "Well, no, I think maybe Waktankin, The Great Spirit." No, I think all people have an inner desire for a spiritual life, but how that is expressed will depend heavily on what their background is and what they've been taught, and what information they have access to.

So anyway, you can't know. You can know what the Bible says, but there is no way to know if the Bible is "God's Word" as professed. And it doesn't make the best case for itself if it is.

[SoulGrind]

If God is just - and justice requires punnishment - then God is not all-loving. The two contradict one another. Justice might be that sinners get sent to Hell; love, however, is blind, and would set them free. God can be all-just or all-loving; he can be loving and all-just, or just and all-loving, but he cannot be both all-loving and all-just.

If you have children, do you not love them?

If they do something wrong, do you not punish them?

Is this not "just"?

I guess you don't really love your children then. By your own admission, you cannot love and punish simultaneously.

[SoulGrind]

So anyway, you can't know. You can know what the Bible says, but there is no way to know if the Bible is "God's Word" as professed. And it doesn't make the best case for itself if it is.

EmeraldGirl -

You might find these two books worth a look...

Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About The Christian Faith

Author: Josh McDowell and Don Stewart

Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christiality

Author: Josh McDowell and Don Stewart

The later book addresses the issue of the Bible being inspired and factual. References (both secular and non-secular) are listed for all articles in both books.

But, then again - you found the Bible boring (as seen in another post you wrote), you will mostly sleep through these books.

I am curious as to whether you truly are interested in knowing more about Christianity or just like stirring up debates.

[secondeve]

If God is just - and justice requires punnishment - then God is not all-loving. The two contradict one another. Justice might be that sinners get sent to Hell; love, however, is blind, and would set them free. God can be all-just or all-loving; he can be loving and all-just, or just and all-loving, but he cannot be both all-loving and all-just.

If you have children, do you not love them?

If they do something wrong, do you not punish them?

Is this not "just"?

I guess you don't really love your children then. By your own admission, you cannot love and punish simultaneously.

I answered this exact question a minute ago, only it was asked by LadyC. I don't have kids - I'm 20 - but the jist of what I said was this:

Hell is eternal. Punnishment for kids is not. Yes, you correct them and there are consequences if they do wrong, but the point is so they can learn from their mistakes. Hell goes on forever, like yelling a kid their entire life for something they did when they were six. That wouldn't be loving of a parent to do that to a kid; if there was a chance that genuine repentance would get you out of hell, then possibly you could have some kind of argument, although the concept is still horrible. But hell cannot be learned from: it is ultimate, torturous and destructive, and negates the idea of love.

Edited July 12, 2006 by secondeve

[sylvan3]

If God is just - and justice requires punnishment - then God is not all-loving. The two contradict one another. Justice might be that sinners get sent to Hell; love, however, is blind, and would set them free. God can be all-just or all-loving; he can be loving and all-just, or just and all-loving, but he cannot be both all-loving and all-just.

secondeve, do you have any children? consider the perspective of a parent.

if your child decides to beat up on another child, or to steal a candybar from the convenience store, would you forgive without punishing him/her for bad behavior?

what if your child were a teenager... and went out joyriding in your car, had a few beers, and wrecked the vehicle? would you say "oh, that's alright kiddo, because i love you, i'm not going to punish you!"

you seem to have the idea that justice/punishment equates to hatred, or at the very least a strong dislike. as every responsible parent knows, however, punishment is a necessary aspect of true, unconditional love. just because you punish a child doesn't mean you no longer love him/her, nor does it mean that you won't forgive. to the contrary, we have a responsibility to discipline our children, to punish them, to allow them to deal with the consequences of their actions. if we fail in this responsibility, we're not teaching them to make wise decisions. if we don't discipline our kids, their behavior will escalate into poor choices that will likely cause them to die an early death, or rot in prison, or something along those lines. that's not what a loving parent does. a loving parent punishes a child while they are still trainable.

God's love is like that, in it's most pure form. the very fact that God sent His own Son to earth to suffer the most horrible form of torture that resulted in death, for your sins and mine, is the most profound expression of love there is! "that one would lay down his life for another, there is no greater love".

eternal life is a gift that we are free to accept or reject. it is out of love that the gift is offered to each and every one of us, in order to spare us from hell. so a person who dies without accepting the gift is not being punished or hated by God, he/she is suffering the consequences that result from turning down the gift that would spare you.

kinda like if you were on trial for some horrible crime... let's say you robbed a store and shot the clerk. you willingly chose to commit the crime knowing full well that you could spend the rest of your life in a 6x10 cell, or worse. and to take the analogy a bit further, let's say you were offered a plea bargain that would spare you the death penalty... you have a choice to either accept the deal or accept lethal injection. if you don't accept the deal, you have no right to get upset that you have to die, because the choice was made by none other than you. someone offered you a chance to live, and you chose to die.

see what i'm saying?

I will state once again that having to "punish" someone is a fallibility that cannot be attributed to an omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent deity. Punishment is necessary for fallible humans because they need ways to control their environment. It makes no sense to say that God needs to punish or meet out justice.

The concept of a four omni God sending his own son to be tortured to pay for our sins is also nonsensical and more than stongly suggestive of a fertile human imagination.

Man supposedly CHOSE sin and requires justice for this from God. However, God CHOSE to create a human being that he knew was going to commit sin.

[SoulGrind]

Hell is eternal. Punnishment for kids is not. Yes, you correct them and there are consequences if they do wrong, but the point is so they can learn from their mistakes. Hell goes on forever, like yelling a kid their entire life for something they did when they were six. That wouldn't be loving of a parent to do that to a kid; if there was a chance that genuine repentance would get you out of hell, then possibly you could have some kind of argument, although the concept is still horrible. But hell cannot be learned from: it is ultimate, torturous and destructive, and negates the idea of love.

I can clearly see you do not understand what Hell is for.

You see, Hell isn't just for one or two people who did bad things - it's for ALL of man kind who has sinned against God.

What does that mean? Starting from Adam up to now (you, me, our neighbors, etc.), there are those who have beleived in Christ and there are those who have dejected Christ.

God is patient - VERY PATIENT - The earth is how old? And humans have been trampling about for how long? And God has reserved his right to judge everyone (even the dead from days by gone) at the very end.

Do you not think this is fair? How many chances do you think God should give?

God is a judge. He is a just Judge. By nature, He cannot allow sin to prevail. He has loved mankind so much that He has given us centuries to accept Him.

But at some point in time, He is going to say Enough is Enough. It is time. And those who are with Him, will be taken into Heaven. And those who have rejected Him, He will judge them. And you cry - NO FAIR!

Bull Honky- No Fair! How long do you need before you decide? One day - it may be too late - then what will you do.

Would you like to hear about someone this has happened to? Sure you do...

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

[Luke 16:19-26 - KJV]

You see - God provides you with many blessings in this life time - even when you deny His very existance. But when the time for judgement comes, God must remain just and do what he must - God is love and purity and righteousness, and by his very nature, he detests sinful nature so much, that it must be wiped clean. If you are not under the Blood of Christ, you are on your own, and your own blood will be used to pay for your sinful nature in the end because:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

[Romans 6:23 - KJV]

Choose wisely my friend.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

[Matthew 7:14 - KJV]

Edited July 12, 2006 by SoulGrind

[sylvan3]

Hell is eternal. Punnishment for kids is not. Yes, you correct them and there are consequences if they do wrong, but the point is so they can learn from their mistakes. Hell goes on forever, like yelling a kid their entire life for something they did when they were six. That wouldn't be loving of a parent to do that to a kid; if there was a chance that genuine repentance would get you out of hell, then possibly you could have some kind of argument, although the concept is still horrible. But hell cannot be learned from: it is ultimate, torturous and destructive, and negates the idea of love.

I can clearly see you do not understand what Hell is for.

You see, Hell isn't just for one or two people who did bad things - it's for ALL of man kind who has sinned against God.

What does that mean? Starting from Adam up to now (you, me, our neighbors, etc.), there are those who have beleived in Christ and there are those who have dejected Christ.

God is patient - VERY PATIENT - The earth is how old? And humans have been trampling about for how long? And God has reserved his right to judge everyone (even the dead from days by gone) at the very end.

Do you not think this is fair? How many chances do you think God should give?

God is a judge. He is a just Judge. By nature, He cannot allow sin to prevail. He has loved mankind so much that He has given us centuries to accept Him.

But at some point in time, He is going to say Enough is Enough. It is time. And those who are with Him, will be taken into Heaven. And those who have rejected Him, He will judge them. And you cry - NO FAIR!

Bull Honky- No Fair! How long do you need before you decide? One day - it may be too late - then what will you do.

Would you like to hear about someone this has happened to? Sure you do...

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

[Luke 16:19-26 - KJV]

You see - God provides you with many blessings in this life time - even when you deny His very existance. But when the time for judgement comes, God must remain just and do what he must - God is love and purity and righteousness, and by his very nature, he detests sinful nature so much, that it must be wiped clean. If you are not under the Blood of Christ, you are on your own, and your own blood will be used to pay for your sinful nature in the end because:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

[Romans 6:23 - KJV]

Choose wisely my friend.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

[Matthew 7:14 - KJV]

I appreciate your efforts to try to explain this; however, it still makes no sense and the character of God that you describe is strongly suggestive of people's fertile imagination of several thousand years ago.

He is patient? Does this mean that he experiences the very human trait of frustration? I guess it does, because there are passages in the Bible where God is apparently offended:

(Malachi 3:8-11 NLT)

"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD Almighty, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not shrivel before they are ripe," says the LORD Almighty".

You may have trouble understanding this, but if God is as human-like as he is portrayed in the Bible, there is also a chance that he also possesses a human trait called deceit--and you may not be going to heaven either, no matter what you believe.

Edited July 12, 2006 by sylvan3

[SoulGrind]

I appreciate your efforts to try to explain this; however, it still makes no sense and the character of God that you describe is strongly suggestive of people's fertile imagination of several thousand years ago.

He is patient? Does this mean that he experiences the very human trait of frustration? I guess it does, because there are passages in the Bible where God is apparently offended:

(Malachi 3:8-11 NLT)

"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD Almighty, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not shrivel before they are ripe," says the LORD Almighty".

You may have trouble understanding this, but if God is as human-like as he is portrayed in the Bible, there is also a chance that he also possesses a human trait called deceit--and you may not be going to heaven either, no matter what you believe.

Of course God gets offended. He is righteous and any iniquity of righteousness is offensive to Him.

If you love your wife or girlfriend, are you not offended when someone treats her wrongly? Of course you are.

If someone abuses your child, are you not offended? Of course you are.

Why?

Because it goes against your nature - how can you not be offended if you truly love them?

When man performs sinful acts of unrighteousness, it is offensive to God because God is righteous.

I don't know of any (better?) other way to explain it. Sorry.

[Guest LadyC]

He is patient? Does this mean that he experiences the very human trait of frustration?

ummm, we were made in HIS image, not the other way around.

let me ask you, how fair would it be to those who HAVE accepted salvation, those who have dedicated their lives to serving God, those who have sacrificed their own selfishness and those who have been persecuted for their faith in God, to get up to heaven and find that they never had to spend one second loving Him, because He was going to let those who hated Him, who rejected Him, and who persecuted the faithful into heaven anyway? if everyone could get in regardless, then what would be the purpose of loving Him? why bother?