Why Atonement anyway?

[SoulGrind]

In the Old Testament blood sacrifice was one way of atoning for sin. However, not all sacrifice used animals, so not all was blood sacrifice. And there were other ways to atone for sin in addition to sacrifice.

No, this is true - that is why I also suggested to look at the various offerings outlined in the book of Leviticus to find out what the purpose of each on is for.

[SoulGrind]

the flesh can be annhilated. the soul can not. it's a part of the spiritual realm that has no beginning or end. the good and evil aspects of the spiritual realm must be eternally separated. did you think God was going to make "hell" a party atmosphere with poker and pool tables and an open bar? those who reject the FREE GIFT of eternal life and walking on streets of gold and freedom from tears and suffering, just because they are too selfish to give up the instant gratification of ungodly, worldly things aren't going to be rewarded with an eternity of "fun".

No doubt you are correct - but also keep in mind, we were not discussing the attrubutes of Hell at that time. We were discussing the legitamacy of the claim that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

One only need reed the passages contained within Isaiah, Daniel, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, and Revelations for a clear understanding of the torments of Hell.

When you think about how God says the gates to Hell will be sealed and those contained therein will be "forgotten" - that is a pretty harsh reality to consider. Especially in the light of the fact that those contained therein are also permantly seperated from God for all eternity - hence the "burning of soul". One can only imagine what other horrors are in store and there will be no escape!

No one will even have a memory of them - and yet their soul shall exist in agony - with no hope of reprieve or paraoll.

Does that satisfy your need for an accurate description of Hell?

[SoulGrind]

the flesh can be annhilated. the soul can not. it's a part of the spiritual realm that has no beginning or end.

So God isn't able to destroy a human soul? Does it say this in the Bible?

Is the soul created or uncreated? If created, then it doesn't make much sense that God couldn't destroy it. If uncreated, then the soul seems to be identical with God.

Upon death, the soul returns to the maker (God). At the time of judgment, the righteous shall be seperated from the unrighteous to erradicate any iniquity.

God did not say the soul would perish - but that it would be encased in Hell for all eternety with out reprieve or paroll or opportunity for escape - it will be impossible - and all contained therein shall be forgotten - see my other post in this forum regarding the attributes of Hell.

[SoulGrind]

the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to that which you currently are unable (and unwilling) to see. God's nature is revealed, and God makes sure that you know with absolute certainty that He exists and that the Bible is His word.

Well if you know with "absolute certainty" that the Bible is the word of God then I guess the Christian doesn't need faith...

It is by faith that we believe.

It is through that belief that we continue to study the word.

It is through prayer that the inner meaing is revealed to us.

Therefore, the message is VERY real.

Unless you are only a curious believe that takes only a cursory evaluation, the Bible will really hold very little value for you. Sure, you might find a few "gems" but for the most part - without faith or a vigil attempt to understand, it will fall of deaf ears.

God has already said that anyone who seeks shall find. Knock, and the door will be opened unto you.

[TheProcess]

But you see, Hell is the "method" that God -WILL- annhihilate those who don't wish to be with Him.

The point being made is that God can forgive everyone. Hell isn't needed. If people do not wish to be with God, then God could let them fade into non-existence.

[Guest LadyC]

But you see, Hell is the "method" that God -WILL- annhihilate those who don't wish to be with Him.

The point being made is that God can forgive everyone. Hell isn't needed. If people do not wish to be with God, then God could let them fade into non-existence.

process, He is a JUST God... just being the root word of justice. because He is perfect and holy, justice is required. if someone came into your home in the middle of the night and slaughtered your family, would you want them to just fade into non-existence, or do you believe that justice should be done and they should get life in prison (or lethal injection, but this isn't a debate on the death penalty)?

the point being, fading to non-existence is not justice. not to mention that, as previously explained, the soul is eternal, it's spiritual, there is no "non-existance" because the spiritual realm is not non-existant. it is a space. simple scientific reasoning dictates that all energy forms exist on some plane or other, they can't just cease to exist.

and as you said, the point being made is that God CAN forgive everyone. and he WILL forgive everyone that WANTS to be forgiven. once the physical body is no longer alive, the physical ability to ask for forgiveness no longer exists, all that is left is the soul... or for the athiests, the "energy" that once resided within the physical body. that energy doesn't have the ability to ask for forgiveness.

if you want to be forgiven, ASK. if you don't want to be forgiven, then you must accept the consequences of the choice you now make. arguing about it now will achieve nothing... your soul will be forced to accept the consequences.

do you want your soul to be sustained by the river of life, never to thirst again during eternity when your body and earth as we know it cease to exist? or do you want the remaining energy that is your soul to be unquenched? it's your choice. we've answered as best we can, and yet you continue to argue that God should change the planes of eternity. God isn't going to change. but you still have the option.

[SoulGrind]

process, He is a JUST God... just being the root word of justice. because He is perfect and holy, justice is required. if someone came into your home in the middle of the night and slaughtered your family, would you want them to just fade into non-existence, or do you believe that justice should be done and they should get life in prison (or lethal injection, but this isn't a debate on the death penalty)?

the point being, fading to non-existence is not justice. not to mention that, as previously explained, the soul is eternal, it's spiritual, there is no "non-existance" because the spiritual realm is not non-existant. it is a space. simple scientific reasoning dictates that all energy forms exist on some plane or other, they can't just cease to exist.

LadyC - Well said.

[sylvan3]

process, He is a JUST God... just being the root word of justice. because He is perfect and holy, justice is required. if someone came into your home in the middle of the night and slaughtered your family, would you want them to just fade into non-existence, or do you believe that justice should be done and they should get life in prison (or lethal injection, but this isn't a debate on the death penalty)?

the point being, fading to non-existence is not justice. not to mention that, as previously explained, the soul is eternal, it's spiritual, there is no "non-existance" because the spiritual realm is not non-existant. it is a space. simple scientific reasoning dictates that all energy forms exist on some plane or other, they can't just cease to exist.

LadyC - Well said.

If God were perfect, the world would be perfect because it is his creation. He is either imperfect, or he created "perfect imperfection" or "perfect sin". Perfect imperfection is a contradiction that is incomprehensible. God is incomprehensible.

I find it interesting that your religion actually requires "faith" to believe in hell (because there is NO evidence that it exists). Doesn't that strike you as odd? Anyone who doesn't accept Jesus goes to hell, according to you. This would include Jews (even the ones who died in the Holocaust), Hindus, Muslims, people who don't understand Christianity, little children who are born without the knowledge of Jesus, and sundry other peoples. Thus, a hypothetical conversation with a Christian might sound like this:

"Are people who don't accept Christ going to hell?"

"Yes"

"Does that include Jews, including the ones who died in the Holocaust, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, people that don't understand Christianity, and anyone else who might not accept Christ?

"Yes"

"How do you know that is true"

"Because I have faith"

It's no wonder I can't accept this religion!

Edited July 15, 2006 by sylvan3

[Guest LadyC]

God isn't incomprensible to those who have a desire to comprehend. we do have human limitations, though, so there are some things we aren't meant to know til we meet Him in heaven. and by the way, God DID create a perfect world, and perfect humans. but imperfection entered through satan, another spiritual being who has to exist on some plane, and was not allowed to coexist with God. again, evil is the ABSENCE of God, not a creation of God.

and like i said to process, you know the consequences of rejection, you know the consequences of acceptance. what you do with that knowledge is a choice only you can make. God isn't going to change things just because you think it's unfair or because you refuse to seek understanding from God... "seeking" that understanding from us is an act of futility, even if you were truly wanting to understand, which from your last post it sounds like you really DON'T care to understand. because to understand the nature of God, you have to get to know Him personally.

[TheProcess]

process, He is a JUST God... just being the root word of justice. because He is perfect and holy, justice is required. if someone came into your home in the middle of the night and slaughtered your family, would you want them to just fade into non-existence, or do you believe that justice should be done and they should get life in prison (or lethal injection, but this isn't a debate on the death penalty)?

There would be justice as Jesus would have taken the punishment. (Whether this is genuinely in accordance with justice I am not concerned with: Christians seem to accept substitutionary atonement as satisfying justice and so I will assume the truth of this here.)

as previously explained, the soul is eternal, it's spiritual, there is no "non-existance" because the spiritual realm is not non-existant.

Well you made the assertion previously, but I didn't see you justify the claim. (I notice that you have now given some kind of argument, which I have responded to below.) Where in the Bible does it say that God can't destroy the human soul?

simple scientific reasoning dictates that all energy forms exist on some plane or other, they can't just cease to exist.

So the soul is an "energy form"? Could you explain what you mean by this? And could you explain how "simple scientific reasoning" shows that these "energy forms" can't cease to exist?

God CAN forgive everyone. and he WILL forgive everyone that WANTS to be forgiven.

I can forgive someone regardless of whether they want to be forgiven or ask to be forgiven. God could do the same.