Why Earth?

[secondeve]

One of the great scientific minds, Thomas Edison, stated that man only knows "a millionth of one percent" about any subject.

Presumably, this applies to Christians as well as athiests; it is bigoted to bring up a universal failing in reference only to others.

Our atheist friends say,

Edited July 18, 2006 by secondeve

[sylvan3]

As for me, I like this part from Lepaca's post:

"If God knows everything, past and future, then everything, all of history, has been determined. That negates free will, since it's already decided whether one will go to heaven or hell. Nobody has a chance to change anything. The inconsistency between all-powerful and all-knowing is that if God knows the future, the future is predetermined and God cannot change it, which would limit his omnipotence further. If he can change it then he isn't omniscient because the future is open to change and he cannot forsee the future changes he will make. I can explain this as many times as you want so if you feel like asking again, be my guest."

#3

Edited July 18, 2006 by sylvan3

[sylvan3]

By existing

Edited July 18, 2006 by sylvan3

[Copper Scroll]

Do you reject part of the Christian religion or do you accept it completely and absolutely? If you accept it completely, how can you tell that it's the only one among many that holds all of the truth and is not flawed? If you think there are flaws in the Christian religion as well, how do you tell the right from the wrong?

There is no one Christian religion. It's not uniform or homogenous. I am a Christian because I accept Christ's redemptive act and I strive to follow His teachings and obey His commandments. I am not all that religious in a ceremonial sense. I just believe in God and try to do His will.

It's much more parsimonious to assume that those inconsistencies come from the fact that a religion is ultimately a collection of irrational beliefs. It's no wonder we find logical fallacies in them noidea.gif The only way one can justify the presence of sin in this world is to attribute it to God's uncomprehensible will - to his "plan" - but in the end that's just an admission that such a justification doesn't really exist in our minds and that no amount of reasoning will make that problem go away. The difference between me and you is that you can accept something so huge on faith alone while I simply go for the most rational explanation. Your position is absolutely, hopelessy and undeniably irrational.

None of that demonstrates my beliefs as irrational. We all accept certain truths on faith. You have just judged mine as extraordinary and deemed my beliefs as irrational based on this judgement. Whatever.

So we have established that God doesn't know the future. I don't know how this can be called omniscience but I'll accept this definition since it makes sense logically. You didn't say anything like this until now so I don't know why you say "I can explain this as many times as you want so if you feel like asking again, be my guest".

In post 114, I wrote "asking if God knows every micro-detail of the future is like asking if God can turn an object left and right at the same time. If we answer those questions "No", that does not take away from God's omniscience or omnipotence... because we can reason logically that those things are impossibilities."

Now let's go on. We have established that God cannot change nor know the future. How can he make the world move toward whatever end game he has in mind?

God can change the future. What would stop Him?

That's not a claim about the actual existence of something

The claim that God exists in not about the existence of "something". (God is not an object.) The claim that God exists is about the existence of someone. Just as you accept my consciousness based on something so flimsy and suspect as this correspondence, I accept the existence of God based on our correspondence--the Bible--and His works in my life.

[Copper Scroll]

There is no one Christian religion. It's not uniform or homogenous. I am a Christian because I accept Christ's redemptive act and I strive to follow His teachings and obey His commandments. I am not all that religious in a ceremonial sense. I just believe in God and try to do His will.

In that case you just pick and choose whatever you think is best That's why the discussion has been so difficult, you can keep shifting goalposts as much as you want. Even if I showed inconsistencies in 99% of the Christian religion, you could still say it's due to flawed communication and that you're not all that religious in a ceremonial sense so you don't have to share all of that religion and pick-and-choose your way out of it. By your own admission, you believe what you want to believe and feel your beliefs are justified by the fact you think they're neat. If this is the case, I don't have anything else to say since it's an obvious admission of irrationality.

Pick and choose from what? In my last two posts, I have stated the essence of my religious beliefs. Ceremony and ritual don't matter to me. For any true Christian, what really matters is accepting Christ as Savior. That's what Christianity is.

I have not admitted anything about making up my own beliefs or holding onto them because they are neat. However, I could say the same for you. In citing the many inconsistencies you detect in religion, what you are seeking is something "neat" and consistent. So your beliefs too are based on what you want and what you think is "neat". The theory of evolution is "neat" for you. Agnosticism or atheism (whatever you want to call it) is "neat" for you. They are consistent and "rational".

But my beliefs too are consistent and rational. You certainly have failed in demonstrating how they are inconsistent and irrational, even if this doesn't stop you from calling them irrational or demanding explanation for inconsistencies that don't exist... so go ahead and bow out. I thank God that He has revealed Himself to me and I pray that He does the same for you.

[WayneB]

that does not make you a true believer, a follower of Jesus Christ

"No true scotsman" fallacy

It's NOT about behavior. It's about relationship.

[WayneB]

I am hoping to be a kinder, gentler sylvan.

Me too sylvan. Me too.

Much of what I have written relative to certain stories in the Bible have to do with the apparent need for a perfect deity to resort to human sacrifice as an answer to what the world needs. You may see this as beautiful. I do not--the need for this from a perfect deity confuses me

A major issue for me is that God, as written in the Bible, orders his creation to kill his other creations of his. Even if he did it himself (struck someone dead) it wouldn't necessarily make sense. The fact that he orders others, through a voice from the sky, to do this is something I find incomprehensible and strongly suggestive of human imagination. I do not see a perfect deity doing this.

I understand and honestly, I struggled with this same issue many years ago. Then I realized where the value of God's creation truly is. It is NOT in our corrupted flesh but in what dwells inside every man. The flesh one day will return to dust but the spirit will go to be with the Father.

Consider this. You have a leather bag of gold ore. Where is the value? In the gold ore or in the leather bag that contains it? And how do we extract the gold, the substance ot true value, from the ore? It must be refined, which involves heat and time.

Maybe it's a bad analogy but the real value of sylvan is not in the clay vessel that holds her spirit but in the spirit itself.

I have come to understand that God's ways are higher than my ways. The Creation story was the beginning of a Work in Process, a work that in the end will refine us removing the dross and clothing us with HIS perfection & righteousness. The difference between us and the gold? We have a choice....and we are far more valuable.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

[sylvan3]

#3

In answer to your last question, I will state "I don't know" as to whether life came from nothing.

Well the Bible plainly says that God created the universe ex nihilo

[EricH]

I sure wouldn't tell her, though, that she'd better be Christian or she is going to hell. There is no evidence for that.

There certainly is evidence for the fact that Jesus claimed that He was the unique way to a relationship with God, and if people decide to forgo that way, they are doomed to eternal separation from Him. Jesus spoke more about Hell, than He did about heaven. You have chosen not to accept the record of what He said.

[sylvan3]

#3

In answer to your last question, I will state "I don't know" as to whether life came from nothing.

Well the Bible plainly says that God created the universe ex nihilo