Why Earth?

[secondeve]

1. You are operating from the falacious premise that the above reflects "punishments" for sin. They are the manifestations of sin.

If God is all-powerful, why is this distinction necessary? You're skirting the issue of God's allowing it to happen - and you've utterly ignored the issue of the victims of sin. Child rape, for example, you would class as a manifestation of sin: an example of the perpetrator's corruption. But it is the child who suffers as a result of it: if the child is undeserving of rape, then it seems logical that God should intervene and prevent this from happening. If he does not, then the child - for whatever divine reason - is deprived of His love and mercy, while acts of sin are beyond either his power or inclination to prevent.

2. You are operating from the false premise that hell is "punishment" for sin. It is not. It the consequence for rejecting God's love. God does "send" people to Hell. God is not vindictive. His justice has been satisfied and He is not holding anything against anybody. Hell is where you go by default. It is not a matter of God saying, "You rejected me, so here is what I am going to do to you."

It is a matter of God saying, "You rejected me, so here is what I am not going to do to you - I will not save you and I will leave you to your fate." A failure to act is often seen as compliance in a crime: if I sit idly by while my friend is raped, I am not saving her. I might not condone the rape, or have let the rapist into the house, and it is all very well for me to say that she has had many opportunities to prevent this happening, such putting locks on the door or whathaveyou or fighting back, but once the act has commenced, if I do nothing - and it is in my power to do something - then I am helping condemn her as much as the man is.

3. The problem with your approach is that it is really selfish at heart. What the world wants is sin without consequence. The world wants to be able to live as they choose, but not have to suffer the consequences for their choices (unless the consequences are good). They expect that they should be able to sleep with every person they want, and God (if He is loving) should not allow the existance of HIV. They should be allowed to ignore the poor in the world, and God (if He is loving) should just make poverty go away. Man expects that He should be able by whatever moral code He wants, and God (if He is loving) should not allow crime to exist. It is a complete irrational concept. We should be able to live as we want, and not be accountable.

For crying in a bucket, why do you persist in taking my arguments against God as a sign that I personally think we should have no accountability for our actions? This is rubbish! Of course many people want to do as they will and get away with it - but I am not among them. You are completely changing the nature of the dicussion. I do not believe God exists, and I am asking you how, if God did exist, he could be loving but allow Sin to exist in the world; could be compassionate, but let children go to hell. And so far, you've not answered that. All you've done is attack me personally for a lack of personal morality, which is both insulting and untrue, and try to defend the idea that a powerful, universe-creating being who is either unwilling or unable to prevent "manifestations of sin" like child rape can be compassionate at the same time.

The world does not want God except when He serves a useful purpose (like ridding the world of all evidence that mankind has screwed everything up). The world wants God out of government, they want God out of shcools, they want God out of public life altogether. They want God to shut-up and go sit in a corner until they need Him, and then they only time they need Him is when they want to complain about why He let this and that happen. God is just a convenient scapegoat. They want God out of their life, and then blame that same absence for their stupid, irresponsible deicisions.

How can I be using God as a scapegoat when I don't think he exists? I am asking you what is, from my point of a view - but not from yours - a hypothetical: if God exists, and is compassionate, why can children go to hell, and why are some raped, if he is powerful enough to prevent this from happening?

However, those who do not have access to God's Word are dealt with by God accordingly. God gives everyone an opportunity. He is just and fair. They may not have access to the Bible in the conventional sense, but God makes Himself known, and is quite capable of reaching everyone.

I would love to see you support - Biblically - the idea that "those who do not have access to God's word are dealt with accordingly." I cannot think of a single Biblical line to suggest this specific thing, unless you are infering it from more general verses about his compassion in order to nullify any horror you might feel at the alternative. Frankly, you cannot tell me that a two-year-old or month-old child in Africa is capable of comprehending the sacrifice of Christ and accepting Him before their death by malnutrition. You assume that God is powerful enough to do this, however: but if God is able to make an unformed child's brain comprehend Christ - which, I might add, goes utterly against other arguments that God wants us to choose him, rather than coercing us for our own salvation - then why cannot He save the child from famine?

I have one more thing to add, and this is for everyone who has said that God let sin into the world so we would know good from bad, or be able to choose Him/have free will. The world God created at first was perfect; Eden was a paradise, and Adam and Eve were without sin, until the Devil tempted them. This suggests that his initial plan was for a perfect world, not a Sinful one. Initially, man was to dwell with Him.

[SoulGrind]

I have one more thing to add, and this is for everyone who has said that God let sin into the world so we would know good from bad, or be able to choose Him/have free will. The world God created at first was perfect; Eden was a paradise, and Adam and Eve were without sin, until the Devil tempted them. This suggests that his initial plan was for a perfect world, not a Sinful one. Initially, man was to dwell with Him.

First off, for the record, I am a Christian - just so it is clear where I am coming from.

I'm not going to get into the overall debate you correctly have going. But, this last paragraph in particular was very intriguing to me.

I was raised Protestant and this has always been my understanding of the creation event:

01.) God was...

02.) God sits on His throne in Heaven

03.) God has angels

04.) One angel in particular is called Lucifer (aka The Angel of Light, The Morning Star, Satan, etc.)

05.) God created a perfect, sinless, flawless, harmonious world - the Earth with all its inhabitants

06.) Adam and Eve were two of those inhabitants - the very first human inhabitants

07.) Adam and Eve were not aware of sin, or of death - only of the world around them and God

08.) At some point in time, Lucifer got ants in his pants and wanted to take over Heaven and be better than God

09.) 1/3 of Heaven's angels took Lucifer's side

10.) God kicked Lucifer and the rebellious angels out of Heaven and gave them the Earth to dwell in and out of

11.) As a safety net, God had forbidden Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from "The Tree of Life"

12.) Satan, who is more of "divine" origin that man knows of the tree's powers - ergo, understanding sin

13.) Satan tempted and convinced Eve to eat the fruit of "The Tree of Life"

14.) Eve's eyes were opened to a world she never knew - a world where sin existed - the realm of Satan

15.) Eve tempted and convinced Adam to eat the fruit of "The Tree of Life"

16.) Adam's eyes were opened to a world he never knew - a world where sin existed - the realm of Satan

17.) We now have the "Fall of Man"

18.) Because of this "Fall", all mankind has been "tainted" ever since, and like a degenerative disease, getting progressively worse

In my humble opinion, and based upon other "facts" I have read in scripture, it is my guess that Adam and Eve, due to their original sinless nature may have actually looked upon the face of God.

Furthermore, -IF- this is the case, based on what we read about Moses having that "glow" from being in the presence of God (not His face mind you) at the burning bush and on Mt. Sinai, we can surmise that Adam and Eve were even more "heavenly" appearing than we could imagine. This is pure speculation on my part - nowhere in the Bible does it talk about Adam and Eve having this "holy glow".

Once Adam and Eve sinned, they had degenerated from being holy and righteous, blameless, and without sin. Their eyes were opened to a new world, the world of sin. They saw their naked flesh. And the world around them became tainted like a glass of water where a grain of salt fell in.

But since Adam and Eve were still "new" to this world, I think this explains why birth defects and disease, and other physical and mental disorders were in short order - their bodies were still the first off the press. All other humans are essentially copies upon copies upon copies, ergo... defect upon defect upon defect.

I don't know this for a fact - but I based this conclusion upon various things I see in this world that behave in similar fashions. If you make a mold, you have an original. Then if you make a new mold from the original, it might be slightly larger, even if it is only a microscopic amount. If you keep doing this, soon it's a real mess and the final product is too large to fit whatever you were making it for in the first place. At some point, you just need to start over.

When I think back to before sin entered the world, and I look at the harmony and peace described in the book of Genesis, I see that, while Adam and Eve lived in a "perfect" paradise (the Garden of Eden), it must have been awesome and beautiful to look upon. And to constantly be in the presence of God - tangible - one-on-one.

So to answer your question directly - yes, I agree. The world we know today, is not what God intended for. I believe the Garden of Eden was a perfect utopia - a paradise where all creation was in balance and harmony. I believe that is the way God intended it.

I am not really sure what would have happened had Adam and Eve not sinned. Would we be here today? Since Adam and Eve (prior to sinning) were not in need or want of anything (such as clothing), would they have even procreated? Would the human race have ever become the billion strong that it is today?

Imagine a perfect utopia-world, a billion strong, without disease, without hunger, without fear of spiders and snakes, and blood thirsty beasts, without murders, or sinners... all with a direct, open-door policy to the Almighty Creator Himself.

Would that be abso-fricken-lutley AWE-some?

Can we even gather a glimpse of that idea?

I think we can. I think this is what God has in store for us. If I read my Bible right (and I think I do), and I believe what it tells me (I do), then when God returns, and sets the world straight and eradicates sin forever and takes those who seek God's face - to touch the creator... Oh what a wonderful, joyous day that will be.

Can you imagine something like this?

Wouldn't that be awesome?

What if it were true?

What is this man Jesus Christ really is the key to our salvation?

What if the prophecies are real and true?

What if Heaven really will be a paradise with streets of gold and without sin?

What if all it took was faith in God and a vigilant heart for Christ to obtain such a wonderful opportunity; to begin a new world the way it was meant to be?

I believe that the Bible is the true and impunitive, exacting Word of God bother literally and figuratively.

I if I believe that the Bible is credible and trustworthy, word for word, then that says I believe we will see the return of Christ and we will see the dawn of a new age.

I don't know about you, but that sounds like the place I want to be.

I can't imagine anyone saying, "Nah, not interested - I prefer life as it is (or worse)."

But hey - if that's what you want - you can have it. And God even says He'll give you what you want, even in the end.

Peace and blessings to all,

Edited July 14, 2006 by SoulGrind

[secondeve]

SoulGrind:

I just have three questions for you:

1. Did God know that Lucifer and his angels would rebell before he created them?

2. Did God know Lucifer would tempt Adam and Eve, but send him down to Earth anyway?

3. Did God know that Adam and Eve's weakness would bring Sin into the world?

[secondeve]

God created Man in his image & gave him free will. Had God not given man a chance to exercise free will, man would be no more to Him than the angels. Man would be servants, not like beings.

If God is omnipotent, why not create a world in which man had free will, but in which there was neither sin nor the potential for it?

[Arialia]

I've been thinking lately, and have come up with a question that I'm curious to hear some answers to. Here it is:

According to the Bible, all souls originate with/are created by God. Christianity also states that God is omnipresent and omnipotent - he both makes and knows all things. Genesis tells us that Sin, God's punnishment for the actions of Adam and Eve, was permanent, so that the whole world after the Fall would be tainted by it. Human beigns are born, live and die on Earth, after which time - if they have been righteous - their souls are returned to God; if not, they are damned to Hell. Heaven is the reward/home of those who are true to the faith; the Bible specifically states that Heaven, regardless of what else it might entail, constitutes 'being with' or 'a closeness to' God. Presumably, when a soul is with God, the Devil can have no hold over it. So if God creates all souls - but can potentially keep them safe from Satan by not making them incarnate - why bother with Earth at all? If God can do everything, then he can surely make us in such a way that we exist peacefully in Heaven without our having to have been born or died. Why allow new babies to be born every day - thousands of them! - if all this does is place their souls temporarily in a Sinful world and provide the opportunity for the Devil to take them irrepairably from him?

God created Man in his image & gave him free will. Had God not given man a chance to exercise free will, man would be no more to Him than the angels. Man would be servants, not like beings.

I thought man was made to worship God anyway. Y'know, be His servants and all that.

[SoulGrind]

SoulGrind:

I just have three questions for you:

1. Did God know that Lucifer and his angels would rebell before he created them?

2. Did God know Lucifer would tempt Adam and Eve, but send him down to Earth anyway?

3. Did God know that Adam and Eve's weakness would bring Sin into the world?

Well, if we consider what the majority of Christians believe... that God is all knowing, all seeing, not bound by our percieved limits of time and space, then I have to answer "Yes" to all the above.

However, in the interest of avoiding the rebutle based on circular reasoning:

God knew before it happened, therefore why didn't he deal with sin ahead of time...

I can't honestly answer that question.

Maybe there is someone more versed in this particular aspect, but that person is not me.

[redeemed098]

A God who has to "hate" anything is not an omnipotent God. Hate is a weakness--an infallibility.

I would add to this that an omnipotent God would have no need to "hate" anything, because it would be well within his power to eternally prevent and remove anything he found abhorrent. If God truly hates child molesters and the like, why not get rid of them?

It is not within Gods Power to go against his Word. He gave men dominion and rule over their own decisionmaking. He Hates liars just as much as he hates child molesters. To attempt to rate sin on a scale of one to ten on your own standard of morality is a futile attempt of self righteousness. Sin is Sin. Whether small in your eyes or large, it is all the same to God. The fruit of disobedience.

God HAS promised perfect justice.. HE has set aside a day where he will judge ALL the unrepentant sins of men. And his justice will be perfect. Until then it his call for all men everywhere to REPENT...The only thing holding back the wrath of God right now is the atoning sacrifice of Christ Jesus our Lord for the sins of men.

Just as God punished sin with a flood, the time is coming when he will once again say...."Enough". Your time is up.

The issue is not child molestation..It is SIN... God could remove every child molester, every warmonger, every disease every pestilence, every hateful, evil and abominable thing from the face of the earth right NOW just as he did with the flood......But how long would it stay that way.....???

In answer to your question of "why not get rid of them...??" the answer is simple...He WILL....But he will also get rid of the Liar , the unbelieving, the vile those who practice magic arts, those who practice sexual immorality etc etc etc......The only reason he hasnt done it yet is recorded in scripture.

"He is not slow as you know slowness but he is patient, willing that none should perish and that all will come to repentance."

Some may have fallen short by more than others, but rest assured that ALL have fallen short. Without Christ you must face the perfect judge...Not for trial..Your trial is NOW...Today is the day of salvation. If you find yourself before the JUDGE of all the earth, then it is for the purpose of sentencing..You have already decided your eternal destination HERE.....!!

Regards,

Ben.

[secondeve]

SoulGrind:

I just have three questions for you:

1. Did God know that Lucifer and his angels would rebell before he created them?

2. Did God know Lucifer would tempt Adam and Eve, but send him down to Earth anyway?

3. Did God know that Adam and Eve's weakness would bring Sin into the world?

Well, if we consider what the majority of Christians believe... that God is all knowing, all seeing, not bound by our percieved limits of time and space, then I have to answer "Yes" to all the above.

However, in the interest of avoiding the rebutle based on circular reasoning:

God knew before it happened, therefore why didn't he deal with sin ahead of time...

I can't honestly answer that question.

Maybe there is someone more versed in this particular aspect, but that person is not me.

It's this very question - and a great many others like it - which makes me feel that the God of the Bible cannot possibly exist - or, if some kind of deity/power/being/s does/do exist out there in the unknown, the attempts of man to comprehend his/her/their wishes and nature in any kind of holy book have been irrevecably tainted by human bias.

In answer to your question of "why not get rid of them...??" the answer is simple...He WILL....But he will also get rid of the Liar , the unbelieving, the vile those who practice magic arts, those who practice sexual immorality etc etc etc......The only reason he hasnt done it yet is recorded in scripture.

"He is not slow as you know slowness but he is patient, willing that none should perish and that all will come to repentance."

Some may have fallen short by more than others, but rest assured that ALL have fallen short. Without Christ you must face the perfect judge...Not for trial..Your trial is NOW...Today is the day of salvation. If you find yourself before the JUDGE of all the earth, then it is for the purpose of sentencing..You have already decided your eternal destination HERE.....!!

Regards,

Ben.

If the world has been so rotten for so long - why wait? And why send more souls into the world in the meantime?

[redeemed098]

I've been thinking lately, and have come up with a question that I'm curious to hear some answers to. Here it is:

According to the Bible, all souls originate with/are created by God. Christianity also states that God is omnipresent and omnipotent - he both makes and knows all things. Genesis tells us that Sin, God's punnishment for the actions of Adam and Eve, was permanent, so that the whole world after the Fall would be tainted by it. Human beigns are born, live and die on Earth, after which time - if they have been righteous - their souls are returned to God; if not, they are damned to Hell. Heaven is the reward/home of those who are true to the faith; the Bible specifically states that Heaven, regardless of what else it might entail, constitutes 'being with' or 'a closeness to' God. Presumably, when a soul is with God, the Devil can have no hold over it. So if God creates all souls - but can potentially keep them safe from Satan by not making them incarnate - why bother with Earth at all? If God can do everything, then he can surely make us in such a way that we exist peacefully in Heaven without our having to have been born or died. Why allow new babies to be born every day - thousands of them! - if all this does is place their souls temporarily in a Sinful world and provide the opportunity for the Devil to take them irrepairably from him?

I don't know...He's God. He hasnt consulted me on this issue... Job wished that he'd never been born, so great was his suffering. "For it would surely have been better for me that I had never been born from my mothers womb. It would have been better if I had been as a stillborn child."

Yet at the end of his discourse with God, he says this..."My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I repent in sackcloth and ashes."

And people, Job was a righteous man before God...Faith WILL be tested....It must be tested if you are to be an overcomer...In all of HIS suffering something kept Job believing and this is the comment that can well sum it all up...."For I know that my redeemer lives and in the end he shall stand upon the earth, and though my flesh may be destroyed, I know that with my eyes I will see God."

Your questions ponder the "fairness" of how God operates. They seek to find reason as to why God would work in such a way that cannot be made sense of...!!

God is not about "fairness".....He is about perfect justice. Whether you think its unfair or not makes no difference at all. If you have lied, then you are a liar, if you have stolen, then you are a thief, if you have murdered, then you are a murderer. You will be judged as such by a perfect standard of Justice. Uncorrupted, unbribeable, and perfectly RIGHT.

My question to YOU is this. Knowing all of this, why do you choose to rebell instead of repenting..??? "Has God really said ...???" has its foundation in the scriptures.

There is only one who accuses God of wrongdoing......You would do well to remember this when next you choose to accuse God of not meeting YOUR moral standards.

You are standing in a far worse place than many eve....You are rejecting WITH knowledge of who Jesus is and why he came. To reject Christ is to reject Gods forgiveness for your sins. You remain UNforgiven. The burden of a whole lifetime of unforgiven and unrepentant sins is yours to carry for all eternity if you dont find Gods forgiveness. Instead of accusing God in your disguised attempts of humility, you need to repent and seek his forgiveness.

Your opening comment was, "I've been thinking Lately." Well don't think too LATELY for today is the day of salvation.

Regards,

Ben.

Edited July 14, 2006 by redeemed098

[secondeve]

Your questions ponder the "fairness" of how God operates. They seek to find reason as to why God would work in such a way that cannot be made sense of...!!

God is not about "fairness".....He is about perfect justice. Whether you think its unfair or not makes no difference at all.

I keep getting misunderstood on this point. Let me put it another way. The Bible describes God in a certain manner. The Bible is as close a thing as Christians have to tangible proof of his existence. So if what the Bible says about God is in doubt, does that in turn cast doubt on God's existence? This is what I'm ultimately asking, not whether or not he is "fair."

My question to YOU is this. Knowing all of this, why do you choose to rebell instead of repenting..???

I don't believe in God, so I don't "know" all this and choose to rebell. I don't believe he exists to rebel against. For me, the question is hypothetical, an intellectual excericse, but it can only be answered by Christians, because it must be answered from within the parameters of belief - which, as I just said, I lack.

Edited July 14, 2006 by secondeve