rapture

[eric]

No false action is taking place when people believe in pre-trib rapture. They can believe what they like, But when they write it or speak it or preach it publically as on this board, as fact, they are doing immeasurable harm, because they cannot back it up from the bible.

So because a certain position cannot be backed up by the Bible, as you claim (or at least to your satisfaction, I would guess), then the "immesurable harm" is done already. So the simple statement of a claim to which you disagree, or to which you claim cannot be backed up by the Bible, is "immeasurably" harmful to the Body of Christ.

If the harm done is "immeasurable" then how do you know that any harm has been done at all? Wouldn't you have to be able to quantify the harm done to even claim that any harm has been done?

Okay, The harm I am referring to is the harm any teaching can do if it can't be substantiated, from scripture, enough to give the babes in Christ a clear cut picture of thier interpretation. Near enough is not good enough. New christians need to be told the truth, not someones assumptions of their findings and call it truth.

All I want as well as Toni and omegaman and others, is for these people, to back their claims about pre-trib rapture by reference from the bible, not only to my own satisfaction, as you so described it, but to everyone's. You are aware of the adage that says......if you can't put up............then...........

[Ovedya]

Toni,

This is mainly what am concerned with here:

As far as you other statements, you are playing semantics.

Don't write my points off as "semantics." That's a cop-out because you can't deal with the ramifications of your statements here. The fact remains that you are making "devilish heresies" over simple non-essential doctrines. If I were to make a comparison of the attitude which you display here I would have to say that yours is nothing short of the Roman Church which, in its Council edicts condemns all who disagree to hell.

The pre-tribulation false doctrine is pushed on just about every message board as fact and biblical, as it is in your evangelical churches across America without a single scripture that supports it. That makes if heresy.

Wow! So Evangelical churches across America, as well as "just about every message board" push this devilish false doctrine. And all of these do not have "a single Scripture" to support their pre-trib view. Then I should assume that the relatively small few Christians who take the post-trib view are "Biblically correct" and therefore "pure in doctrine"? Well ain't you just the bee's knees!

In fact, there are plenty of resources on the web that make perfectly valid arguments for a pre-trib rapture, and most, if not all, use Scripture to support their view.

[Ovedya]

Okay, The harm I am referring to is the harm any teaching can do if it can't be substantiated, from scripture, enough to give the babes in Christ a clear cut picture of thier interpretation. Near enough is not good enough. New christians need to be told the truth, not someones assumptions of their findings and call it truth.

All I want as well as Toni and omegaman and others, is for these people, to back their claims about pre-trib rapture by reference from the bible, not only to my own satisfaction, as you so described it, but to everyone's. You are aware of the adage that says......if you can't put up............then...........

I am aware. But of the pre-tribbers I've heard myself discussing their position, nearly all of hem have used enough convincing evidence from Scripture.

My argument here is that the discussion itself and the ridiculous statements with regard to such being "devilish heresies" are most detrimental to the Body of Christ. These are non-essential positions over which we may freely disagree without sacrificing our oneness. Christians intentionally divide themselves from one another over such disagreements.

[Massorite]

There will be no rapture and therefore nothing to be "ready for". Just live, man. Just live.

That's a very carnal minded attitude, most of the sinners on this earth would agree with your statement.

Contrast your words with the words of the Lord in Luke 21

But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.

[Isa]

The Church is not destined for wrath, eschatological or otherwise. The Church has no part of the 70 "weeks" ordained for Israel to fulfill thier calling and mission. Peope who deny the translation of the Church before the 70th Week don't understand the OT prophets. There is a resurrection of the Church and a resurrection of Israel, separated by seven short years; then the resurrection of the damned 1,000 years later.

Again, away with your "lie" and "heresy" nonsense, who are you?

There is nothing in what you have said that states the saints of God will be caught away before the tribulation period. I have provided scripture that absolutely refutes the pre-tribulation rapture heresy. You cannot prove anything you have said using scripture because it is not there. God's wrath does not occur until the Day of the Lord, which is the last day, and is not the tribulation period. I have already provided scripture so I will not be redundant.

There is only one Resurrection of the righteous dead in Christ, which occurs on the last day, after which those that are alive and remain will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in air. I have already provided the scripture, so I will not be redundant. It is unbelievable the lies the pre-trib people will go to to defend this false doctrine, even to the point that they will say there are two resurrections.

You are mistaken my friend every there have been many proofs given to you but you wish to ignore them, they are plain understandable verses out of God's word.

Revelation 3:10

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The hour of trial that comes upon the world is the seven year tribulation, how much plainer do you want it. If God says He will keep us from this hour then I believe Him.

Whether or not you believe in the rapture doesn't matter to me because when the Lord comes for us I will meet you there in the air before the tribulation to be with our Lord and savior.

We are saved from God's wrath or the wrath of the Lamb which are the seven seals, which open up into the seven trumpets, which open up the seven bowl judgments, which is upon the wicked, we are saved from all this how much plainer do you want it.

Revelation 6:12-17

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks,

[irishcowboy]

IT WONT HAPPEN BECAUSE GOD HAS ALREADY TOLD YOU WHAT WILL HAPPEN HAS HE EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A RAPTURE THESE ARE THE THEORYS OF MEN

God's Word has nothing said about Grandfathers or Grandmothers either.... the concept is there..... as is the concept of the "catching away" or Rapture,

if you say there is no "rapture" then I say there is not "Grandfathers, or Grandmothers, for for that matter Barbers, for my son has long hair, and i have a 4 inch pony tail again ( have had 12 inch).... hmmm yep, no such things as barbers.... the Bible dont speak of them either..... now, the Bible does talk about cars....... ( "and they were all in one "ACCORD" " )

The Rapture "Theory" (as you call it) showed up over 150 years ago, Daniel was told a bunch of stuff directly from the Lord, and he was told that the "BOOK" (knowledge) of this would be sealed until the end times..... (not quoted) there are many things that have not been revealed, I have studied the end time stuff for quite some time, and have sat under others that have dedicated their lives to it.... I have not even began to understand the vast amount of knowledge and wisdom that it will take to complete the entire ordeal ( been studying since the early 1970's ) and i am far from being an expert... the more i dig, the more i find, the more i learn the more i find i need to learn.....

I will tell you again, for i have said it before..... the scripture referances i have on paper, and there are notebooks upon notebooks in this house, some of the notebooks no longer exist for some are in Saudi, where they were left, some were left in other places I lived and places where i traveled, some on purpose, some by accident..... part of the reason the scripture referances (book, chapter, verse) are not in my head, is i get them twisted.... when i was a child, i hated sundayschool, and if it had been left up to me, the first six years of sunday school, with six differant teachers, would have been the cause of me turning away from church..... for I never got a prixe, not a single prize for memory verse work.... i could tell you wat it ment, but I could not quote it word for word, and could never get the book, chap verse correct..... problem is, they do not give prize just for understanding it, but for quoting it, whether or not it is understood.......

people say that is most important........ i say ........

HOG WASH........

I never read a single account where Christ used "book, chapter, verse"..... he said what the scripture said and that was it...

Dyslexia was not diagnosed until after I was out of school and had already spent 2 years in the Navy..... people tagged those with dyslexia as being stupid, lazy, daydreamers, and other tags that would stick with a child..... and is many cases, turning the child away from doing good to saying "The Heck with it, Who Cares how I do....."

I have asked questions, and they were not answered, so I dig deeper..... I asked a couple specific questions, and got non-answers......

I wish I were the expert, so i could show all what is to happen and what is happening.... I do know things that are going on that the general public does not know, and how they are aligning with things that have been written.....

a lot (not all ) of prophecy has two time frames, one that was to be fulfilled in the near future, and then also in the far distance..... there were and are a lot of for shadowings that were given us, things that actually happened, that show us, teach us about things that will happen in the future (again some of them have already been fulfilled in the past)

I have not argued against the post trib rapture, but asked question..... I know what I believe, and from what I have learned i believe in Pre Trib...... now......

we can allow this "doctrine" to split us, or to bind us.... our choice..... we can stop being so bull headed and calling people others names ( both, pre and post tribers) what type of glory has this brought to God????

NONE....

this has brought no honor to God, but has brought honor to satan, calling fellow brothers and sisters false teachers, condemning them and as has been said, no one knows all the answers..... too much has been locked away..... too much has been left for our knowledge only after we go home to be with our Lord..... that is if we do not allow PRIDE to steer us away from Him as Lucifer did, as Eve did, as Saul did........as WE ARE DOING....

I believe this thread needs to be secured, at least for now..... too heated, too many experts on things that are maybe best left alone.... at least for now........

do we really believe that post tribbers are condemned to hel?

do we really believe that mid tribbers are condemned to hell?

how about pre tribbers??????

if they have Christ as their Lord, WHO CARES IF IT IS POST, MID OR PRE TRIb.......

Christ iswhat we are suppost to be teaching, Christ Crucified, Christ Risen.....

one person attacking another, does not give licesne forthe other to attack the one..... this is not what Christ taught...... this is not what Paul taught, this is not what God taught.......

with all due respect......

mike

[Isa]

IT WONT HAPPEN BECAUSE GOD HAS ALREADY TOLD YOU WHAT WILL HAPPEN HAS HE EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A RAPTURE THESE ARE THE THEORYS OF MEN

God's Word has nothing said about Grandfathers or Grandmothers either.... the concept is there..... as is the concept of the "catching away" or Rapture,

if you say there is no "rapture" then I say there is not "Grandfathers, or Grandmothers, for for that matter Barbers, for my son has long hair, and i have a 4 inch pony tail again ( have had 12 inch).... hmmm yep, no such things as barbers.... the Bible dont speak of them either..... now, the Bible does talk about cars....... ( "and they were all in one "ACCORD" " )

The Rapture "Theory" (as you call it) showed up over 150 years ago, Daniel was told a bunch of stuff directly from the Lord, and he was told that the "BOOK" (knowledge) of this would be sealed until the end times..... (not quoted) there are many things that have not been revealed, I have studied the end time stuff for quite some time, and have sat under others that have dedicated their lives to it.... I have not even began to understand the vast amount of knowledge and wisdom that it will take to complete the entire ordeal ( been studying since the early 1970's ) and i am far from being an expert... the more i dig, the more i find, the more i learn the more i find i need to learn.....

I will tell you again, for i have said it before..... the scripture referances i have on paper, and there are notebooks upon notebooks in this house, some of the notebooks no longer exist for some are in Saudi, where they were left, some were left in other places I lived and places where i traveled, some on purpose, some by accident..... part of the reason the scripture referances (book, chapter, verse) are not in my head, is i get them twisted.... when i was a child, i hated sundayschool, and if it had been left up to me, the first six years of sunday school, with six differant teachers, would have been the cause of me turning away from church..... for I never got a prixe, not a single prize for memory verse work.... i could tell you wat it ment, but I could not quote it word for word, and could never get the book, chap verse correct..... problem is, they do not give prize just for understanding it, but for quoting it, whether or not it is understood.......

people say that is most important........ i say ........

HOG WASH........

I never read a single account where Christ used "book, chapter, verse"..... he said what the scripture said and that was it...

Dyslexia was not diagnosed until after I was out of school and had already spent 2 years in the Navy..... people tagged those with dyslexia as being stupid, lazy, daydreamers, and other tags that would stick with a child..... and is many cases, turning the child away from doing good to saying "The Heck with it, Who Cares how I do....."

I have asked questions, and they were not answered, so I dig deeper..... I asked a couple specific questions, and got non-answers......

I wish I were the expert, so i could show all what is to happen and what is happening.... I do know things that are going on that the general public does not know, and how they are aligning with things that have been written.....

a lot (not all ) of prophecy has two time frames, one that was to be fulfilled in the near future, and then also in the far distance..... there were and are a lot of for shadowings that were given us, things that actually happened, that show us, teach us about things that will happen in the future (again some of them have already been fulfilled in the past)

I have not argued against the post trib rapture, but asked question..... I know what I believe, and from what I have learned i believe in Pre Trib...... now......

we can allow this "doctrine" to split us, or to bind us.... our choice..... we can stop being so bull headed and calling people others names ( both, pre and post tribers) what type of glory has this brought to God????

NONE....

this has brought no honor to God, but has brought honor to satan, calling fellow brothers and sisters false teachers, condemning them and as has been said, no one knows all the answers..... too much has been locked away..... too much has been left for our knowledge only after we go home to be with our Lord..... that is if we do not allow PRIDE to steer us away from Him as Lucifer did, as Eve did, as Saul did........as WE ARE DOING....

I believe this thread needs to be secured, at least for now..... too heated, too many experts on things that are maybe best left alone.... at least for now........

do we really believe that post tribbers are condemned to hel?

do we really believe that mid tribbers are condemned to hell?

how about pre tribbers??????

if they have Christ as their Lord, WHO CARES IF IT IS POST, MID OR PRE TRIb.......

Christ iswhat we are suppost to be teaching, Christ Crucified, Christ Risen.....

one person attacking another, does not give licesne forthe other to attack the one..... this is not what Christ taught...... this is not what Paul taught, this is not what God taught.......

with all due respect......

mike

I totally agree with you Mike we are all children of God and it doesn't matter what we believe about the trib and when it happens, what matters is that we are right in Christ and we show love to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Romans 15:14

Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Colossians 3:16

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 3:14-16

14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

We are to treat each other with respect as brothers and sisters no matter what or who is right. We should be careful in calling one a heretic and control our tongue for what we say will be judged on.

The tongue is a small part but it kindleth a very big fire. Do not let Satan take hold of you my friends for we are brothers and sisters in Christ not enemies.

God Bless all His children

[AnotherTraveler]

Anyone that reads my posts knows I don't like extra biblical words like the word rapture, however, I do believe that Jesus is coming for us very soon, and I think it is a devilish doctrine that gives any of us a sense of "it won't be yet". In a time when you don't think He is coming, the Son of man comes, but He comes for those that are looking for Him.

[Isa]

I think I have already done that in these threads, but to clarify again, unless one can support any doctrine using the Word of God, it is heresy.

Oh, but every doctrine conceived of by men is, in some way, supported by the Scriptures. Even the two I mentioned above, which are extra-Biblical in origin, are purportedly supported by Scripture.

Even your usage of the word "heresy" is, in fact, extra-Biblical, Toni. The Scriptural use of the word is "choices of opinion" or "schools of opinion." Seems to me that the pre-trib/post trib-positions are both in themselves "schools of opinion." In modern Christianity it is commonly used to mean "any person's doctrine which differs from mine."

Be careful how you use Biblical terminology.

BTW: I don't recall ever taking either position here...

O, really Ovedya...then let me remind you and please explain your statements here quoted below. This is typical and classical pre-tribulation rapture justification without any scripture that says the saints will be caught up to meet the lord in the air before the tribulation. It is nothing but a man made or satanic idea, whichever you choose to use, to promote this heresy. Scripture explicitly states when the saints will be caught up to meet the lord in the air and it is not pretribulation. What did you mean by "It is really quite simple."? Please explain your statement in light of your post. If you are not implying you take a pre-tribulation rapture position, then I apologize.

As far as you other statements, you are playing semantics. The pre-tribulation false doctrine is pushed on just about every message board as fact and biblical, as it is in your evangelical churches across America without a single scripture that supports it. That makes if heresy. Give me some scripture that tells me the saints will be caught up to meet the lord in the air before the tribulation, then I may consider what you have said. So far, no one on any message board, including here, has been able to do it.

Interesting that Rev. 3:10 says "I will keep you from the hour of trial." That indicates that the saints will not endure the trial at all.

The Lord promised the church that He would keep her out of the hour of trial because she has kept the word of the Lord's endurance. This promise of the Lord, like His promise in Luke 21:36, indicates that the saints who keep the word of the Lord's endurance will be raptured before the great trial, implying that those who do not keep the word of the Lord's endurance will be left in the trial.

It's really quite simple.

In actuality, the scripture that you quoted reads:

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Please show me where this scripture reads the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air before the tribulation starts from this scripture?

Tell us in your point of view when is the hour of trial that comes on the world?

Isa:

My point of view is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand because this scripture in no way denotes that the saints will be removed from the earth before the tribulation. The biblical fact is, the Lord can protect his people without having to remove them, as has already been pointed out.

Well then if the Lord protects the church through the tribulation as you say then how do we have christians being martyred in the tribulation? Are these christians that were martyred apart of the church body?

Revelation 6:9-11

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

[Isa]

Anyone that reads my posts knows I don't like extra biblical words like the word rapture, however, I do believe that Jesus is coming for us very soon, and I think it is a devilish doctrine that gives any of us a sense of "it won't be yet". In a time when you don't think He is coming, the Son of man comes, but He comes for those that are looking for Him.

Okay would it suite you if us pre-tribbers use the words catching away or caught up with the Lord instead of rapture.

I believe God has promised that we will not have to face the wrath of God or the wrath of the Lamb which comes upon the world in the tribulation period.

Revelation 3:10

10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I have three questions for you.

Does the church go through the tribulation? and if so

Does the Lord keep us from this wrath? and if so

Where does He keep us?