Guest feraline Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I have a major question about sin. I know that according to the Bible Adam and Eve were without sin until they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. After that they were tossed out of Eden and everyone has been sinful ever since. I am wondering....how did sin happen? Eve was tempted by a serpent (is that Satan?) to sin. How did the serpent get to be so bad when there was no sin in the world before Eve bit the apple? Also...I've heard that God can't tolerate sin and that's why Jesus died on the cross and that's why people should repent of their sin...but if he can't tolerate it why did he make it? And if he didn't make it who did...and why...and why did God allow sin to come into the world when he did not want there to be sin? Okay...more then one question.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted October 7, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2003 Feraline: God never made sin but gave man a freewill to choose whether to obey Him or to do what he pleases. Your question about God creating evil is interesting but nothing new...it's commonly called the "problem with evil" and has been theologically debated for a long, long time. How did evil come into being? Some believe it came into being when created beings choose, by way of free will, to act in rebellion against the Lord God who made them. This includes the angels, (Satan is a fallen angel...who rebelled against God) as well as the nature of man to rebel against God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted October 7, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2003 Dear feraline, You ask some very valid questions. I would like to "try" to answer them. Please this is merely for discussion all, and if you would like to comment, please do so with courtesy, as I am just sharing what I see in the Scriptures. My first comment is to say that for God to make man to have "free will", then there must be boundaries and judgment to reign in the wickedness that will come from that "free will" in those who forsake God. In other words, God did not make mankind to be robots programmed to love Him. He allowed mankind to have choice to love and worship Him or not. To glorify Him or not. Man is shown God's love and the reality of God the Creator and Savior, but not all of man will choose God over the world/satan. In order for God to allow freewill, there must also be justice and righteous judgment by God too. There must be instruments available to mete out punishment, and sometimes, God will use the disobedience and sin, of those who do not love God, to be used for tools of teaching. Take for instance Pharoah and what the Word says about him being used for God's purposes, because of his rebellion towards God. God will then take those who deny, and use them for vessels of ignoble purposes to accomplish a greater good in His plan. God is Master over everything, even that which is disobedient. God can take and use for His purposes of ultimate good and justice. Romans:9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? God had a very specific plan to use Pharoah in his disobedience, to accomplish a greater purpose. To glorify His(God's) Name. He used Pharoahs refusal, to purify and display His very own beloved people, the Israelites. God is patient and does not want any to perish. He waits patiently for those to receive Him who will. But God also knows who will and who will not. But He is patient in love. God is very patient in love, but He does not wait forever. He will eventually harden a heart in refusal, and use that heart for something else. Like He used Pharoah for a ignoble purpose, because of his hardened heart. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. So if we do not come to repentance, we are then used for a different purpose. To be able to have freewill, there must be a response in justice to the rebellion and wickedness that occurs. That has been remedied by the use of those God so chooses, to accomplish His will for good. Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the blacksmith Who blows the coals in the fire, Who brings forth an instrument for his work; And I have created the spoiler to destroy. Isaiah 10:5 "Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hand is My indignation. 6 I will send him against an ungodly nation, And against the people of My wrath I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey, And to tread them down like the mire of the streets. 7 Yet he does not mean so, Nor does his heart think so; But it is in his heart to destroy, And cut off not a few nations. 8 For he says, 'Are not my princes altogether kings? 9 Is not Calno like Carchemish? Is not Hamath like Arpad? Is not Samaria like Damascus? 10 As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, Whose carved images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria, 11 As I have done to Samaria and her idols, Shall I not do also to Jerusalem and her idols?' " 12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks." 13 For he says: "By the strength of my hand I have done it, And by my wisdom, for I am prudent; Also I have removed the boundaries of the people, And have robbed their treasuries; So I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man. Isaiah 10:24 Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: "O My people, who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian. He shall strike you with a rod and lift up his staff against you, in the manner of Egypt. 25 For yet a very little while and the indignation will cease, as will My anger in their destruction." 26 And the Lord of hosts will stir up a scourge for him like the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb; as His rod was on the sea, so will He lift it up in the manner of Egypt. 27 It shall come to pass in that day That his burden will be taken away from your shoulder, And his yoke from your neck, And the yoke will be destroyed because of the anointing oil. What vessels are we? 2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ F6 depart from iniquity." 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. There will not be a need for judgments in heaven. There will not be anymore choosing in heaven. It will just be the dwelling of God and His children. There will not be a need in heaven for any wrath or judgments, but regretfully because we are made to be able to have choices for or not to love God, there will need to be justice and righteousness. I hope this is clear. Or at least open for discussion? In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted October 7, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2003 God had a very specific plan to use Pharoah in his disobedience, to accomplish a greater purpose. To glorify His(God's) Name. He used Pharoahs refusal, to purify and display His very own beloved people, the Israelites. God is patient and does not want any to perish. He waits patiently for those to receive Him who will. But God also knows who will and who will not. But He is patient in love. God is very patient in love, but He does not wait forever. He will eventually harden a heart in refusal, and use that heart for something else. Like He used Pharaoh for a ignoble purpose, because of his hardened heart. A well worded explanation tsth feraline the questions you are asking have been pondered by followers of God for centuries you will probably get a variety of answers. how did sin happen? Eve was tempted by a serpent (is that Satan?) to sin. How did the serpent get to be so bad when there was no sin in the world before Eve bit the apple? Yes the serpent was satan and he deceived Eve into going against Gods command not to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and evil. satan was not a part of what God created in this world, he was the highest angel. I believe that there was no sin in mankind before they obtained the knowledge of good and evil from the forbidden tree. The fact that the tree existed in the garden makes it clear that evil and good where present in the world but not yet activated in the hearts of mankind. Also...I've heard that God can't tolerate sin and that's why Jesus died on the cross and that's why people should repent of their sin...but if he can't tolerate it why did he make it? And if he didn't make it who did...and why...and why did God allow sin to come into the world when he did not want there to be sin? Now them thar are meaty questions God is perfect and cannot accept imperfection with Him in eternity. God gave us free will So we have a choice to accept God, we must therefore have another option. Sin is a state, one is in, if one is rebelling against God. So sin exists only when one is in rebellion against God, so therefore those that are in rebellion against God create the state of sin. So God created the possibility of rebellion. When satan and then mankind took that option they created the outcome of rebellion SIN. God has made a way for mankind to cancel the effect of this rebellion by again giving us another option. The option now is Do we accept The Messiah Jesus or do we reject Him. In accepting Jesus we accept His words and in this acceptance we are in agreement with God that sin is wrong and that God is truth and perfect. So God created the possibility of rebellion Why? this is where we really get into the realms of speculation but I will share some thoughts. There is in the bible a reference to another book a book that exist in heaven called the book of life. scripture seems to indicate that this book has existed since the foundations of the world or the very beginning of the world. Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 21 The Glory of the New Jerusalem 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Remember what happened in the garden of Eden happened after the world had been completed. Not only has this book existed since the universe was created but it also contains all the names of people who are going to be saved. So therefore God knew all the people who will accept Him/Jesus even before He had finished creating the universe. If He knew this then He must know all of History He must have known that satan would attempt to deceive/sabotage mankind and He must have known Eve and Adam would take the bait. Now lets take a step back to what tsth was talking about. Pharaoh was in rebellion against God, but God had factored in this rebellion and used that rebellion to show to the world His (Gods) power. For if the Jews had rebelled against pharaoh and got out of Ejypt by their own strength then people would not have seen the demonstration of Gods will towards the Jewish people and His power in freeing them from pharaoh. Now it says in the scriptures that God catches the cunning in their own plans that is to say God makes the cunning fall victim to the very trap they themselves set up. Now satan like pharaoh was in rebellion against God not only was he in rebellion he looked upon himself as Gods equal. satan set the trap for Eve, by His deception satan was trying to sabotage Gods creation in an attempt to demonstrate that God was not perfect. Now can you see that God being perfect and knowing all things in advance would some how find a way to use this event to demonstrate his love and will for mankind and also to show to everyone what a lowlife satan is. The actions of satan lead to the coming of the Messiah Jesus who suffered and died for mankind. A wonderful demonstration of Gods loving nature for His creation. So now not only are we in Awe at Gods power and might in having the ability to create the universe and all things in it, we are also in Awe at the depth of His loving kindness towards us. All praise The Ancient Of Days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted October 12, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted October 12, 2003 True love could not exist if the ability to not love is present. God didn't creat robots, but gave us freewill. He is not the author of sin, 1 Cor. 15 makes that clear. Sin entered the world through mankind and death is a result of that sin. We all are guilty and in need of a Savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishcowboy Posted October 13, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,248 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2003 the original sin, maybe looked upon as that even before the Garden, for anything that is displeasing to God, anything that is against God, is sin..... Lucifer ( satan as most call him ) seen God as being the most High, and lucifer, was ( still is ) a very beautiful angel ( now the angel of darkness, the angel of deceite, the angel of eternal death and damnation ..... ) and started becoming jealous of God, and tryed to place himself above God, not just equal to God but above Him, and there is no way that a creation can be above or better then its creator...... thus, satan(lucifer) had also begun to gather some followers, for he was, and is very crafty in his deceit...... God got tired of this game, and called upon the Archangel Michael and the army of angels, and they defeated lucifer and his followers, and cast, threw them out of heaven, not just chased them out, but threw them out........literally..... this deceit is so good that satan does not have to come up with any new ideas on how to get us to sin, he does not have to come up with any new tricks, he continues to use the old ones, over and over and over again..... you know, that satan already knows that his time is almost up...... satan knows the words of the Bible better then we do, that iswhy we must stay ground in the word and not allow the evil one to even get close to us to try and trick us...... satan knows the Bible so well, that he can twist things around so much, and in such a way, that it almost sounds right.... .but with the Spirit of God in us, we can discern what is right and what is wrong.....and we can turn the tables on satans little plan..... the root to most sin, is jealousy and envy, which leads to greed and other things that are self centered, things that are of us, and not God, if we stay with God, the sin will tend to stay away..... as for why does God allow it...... well, God wants us to love Him for Him, not just doing things because that is the way we are programed... God wants us to choose to Love Him, just as a mother would love her child, or a child loves their mother...... if the mother loves the child as God loves us, the child will have a choice to love his mother, or to rebelle, if the child rebelles, does that mean you bannish the child? no, does that mean you dont love the child anymore? no, that means that you have to love the child even more.... and admonish him and discipline the child so that the child knows where you stand, and knows what is expected, there will be times that the child will totally rebelle, and then there will be times the child comes back and appoligiezes for what he has done...... the mother wants the child to love her out of his own free will, not because he fears her, or is afraid, or has to..... the same is with God, God wants us to just Love Him, because we want to Love Him, not because we have to or fear Him..... mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagz4Christ Posted October 13, 2003 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 511 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/18/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/08/1975 Share Posted October 13, 2003 It was explained to me like this....... Could we worship God as a merciful God if we didn't know why He was giving us mercy? Could we really love Him if we didn't know what the reason for it was? Could we say that He is long-suffering if there were no reason for Him to be long-suffering? Everyone has given very good points to consider. I pray that they all made sense to you feraline. ~in His service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts