Biblical Inerrancy

[pointer]

You don't appear to have any interest in talking about Biblical Errancy, which is the topic of this post

It wasn't the topic when I entered the thread. It wasn't the topic you argued about with me. Nor was it the topic you failed to answer questions on, giving a ridiculous excuse, made worse with a lie. You are all three dishonest, nasty people.

[billie]

Pointer, you're not going to get anywhere with insults. Maybe everybody needs to take a little time-out to cool off.

[emeraldgirl]

Pointer, you're not doing a thing but trolling. If I was one of the Christians here, you would be an embarrasement to my faith.

You should go pray for some of those fruits of the spirit...hmm, what were they? Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, self-control.....

[pointer]

Pointer, you're not going to get anywhere with insults.

Do you suggest that the posts from these three people are not dishonest and nasty? If so, show me where I have misjudged them.

They came, they lost, they got nasty. Maybe they will take more care in future.

[billie]

Pointer, you're not going to get anywhere with insults.

Do you suggest that the posts from these three people are not dishonest and nasty? If so, show me where I have misjudged them.

They came, they lost, they got nasty. Maybe they will take more care in future.

Pointer, I'm not saying you've misjudged at all and I didn't make that post to argue with you, brother. Do you remember what it was like to be an unbeliever? Because I was very dishonest and very nasty. What I am suggesting is that we have to remember where other people are coming from and that we're to speak the truth in love. We don't have to let our emotions get the better of us and let things get personal. As believers, we're called to love AND be truthful. It's the goodness of the Lord that draws man to repentence. They should see that through us. I didn't mean to offend you, brother. I'm sorry if that's how it sounded(or read, or looked).

[pointer]

Pointer, you're not going to get anywhere with insults.

Do you suggest that the posts from these three people are not dishonest and nasty? If so, show me where I have misjudged them.

They came, they lost, they got nasty. Maybe they will take more care in future.

Pointer, I'm not saying you've misjudged at all and I didn't make that post to argue with you, brother. Do you remember what it was like to be an unbeliever? Because I was very dishonest and very nasty. What I am suggesting is that we have to remember where other people are coming from and that we're to speak the truth in love.

That is exactly what I was doing.

[deist]

Deist, you have it right on.

Thank you!

You are all three dishonest, nasty people.

I can't speak for the other two, but for my part, as Christ forgives, so shall I forgive you for this statement. I wish you peace for your soul.

[pointer]

Pointer I'm relatively new to this forum and I haven't had the occasion of discussing biblical inerrancy in a satisfactory way. I see that there's been some fighting here, but could you please forget that and go on to talk about the problems posted by emeraldgirl? I'm very interested. Thanks for your time!

I'm flattered that you think I have some expertise in this! I don't doubt that there are many others who can answer these questions at least as well as I can; if not, you might be able to get some answers on the 'net, as these problems, or apparent problems, are quite well known.

I might add that I did not join the thread on the subject of errors, but on Bible interpretation, and I feel no obligation to deal with claimed errors; just in case you believe that I should.

[deist]

I might add that I did not join the thread on the subject of errors, but on Bible interpretation, and I feel no obligation to deal with claimed errors; just in case you believe that I should.

I believe there would be large agreement among those on this thread that the thread would be much better off without your input. You've done nothing to help emeraldgirl with her questions. You've done nothing to further the cause of Christ. You've done everything to promote disharmony and yet you remain quite smug with your responses. To the casual observer, you appear a bit "off" in your ablitlity to make coherent sentences, but perhaps you are suffering with something that makes you a tad mentally unstable. I hope you have seen a physician.

Emeraldgirl, I share many of the same questions as you and at this time find myself not in the camp of the believers of inerrancy. However, since I've spent much of my life in this camp, here is how I would offer a response to your questions if I were still in that place. Pointer, you'd do well to study up here:

Some errors and contridictions in the Bible:

1 Kings 4:26 "And Solomon has 40,000 stalls of horses for his chariots, and 12,000 horsemen."

vs.

2 Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had 4,000 stalls for horses and chariots, and 12,000 horsemen...."

(If you don't have a KJV Bible, don't bother looking; this error has been corrected as the translators see fit. (I wonder if they asked God for wisdom first.)They also decided he had 12,000 horSES, not horsMEN.

These can be attributed to simple copying errors. Remember, all of this was being transcribed before computers or copy machines, written with quills or other rudimentary tools, hauled around on the backs of camel, and stored in jars. I think we can give humanity a little leeway here in that the message is not really changed that much even with the difference in numbers. We could just say:"There were a LOT of horses and a LOT of horsemen and stalls."

2 Chronicles 36:9 "Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign..."

vs.

2 Kings 24:8 "Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began to reign....

Your Bible has fixed this, too, if it's not KJV.

Another copy error. We could agree that in either case he was young when he began his reign.

2 Samuel 24:1 Says that God incited David to take a census.

vs.

1 Chonicles 21:1 Says it was Satan that incited David to take a census.

Well, it was God after all that created Satan. Either way, god being omnipotent knew that David would take a census.

Matt 27:5 says Judas hanged himself

vs.

Acts 1:18 says Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong and his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

I've actually heard this explained as this: Judas bought a field and hung himself. When the rope holding him broke, he fell headlong and his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. (Probably because he'd been rotting awhile.) Sounds logical if you think about it.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time..." anyway, WHO is Jesus???

vs.

Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face-to-face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

and

Genesis 32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel; for I have seen God face-to-face, and my life is preserved..."

No one has ever seen God in the "God the Father" form. When he spoke to Moses "face to face", that doesn't mean Moses actually saw his face, but rather "heard his voice directly" rather than just "felt" his voice through his spirit (considering the Holy Spirit wasn't on the earth at that time anyway.) When Jacob said he has seen God face to face, he is speaking figuratively, meaning he saw the evidence of God in possibly some aspect of creation..

What about moral contradictions?

Exodus 21:12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death."

vs.

Matthew 5:39

and

Romans 12:17 "Do not repay any one evil for evil."

I don't think putting someone to death in a just system for the murder of another is repaying evil with evil. It is preventing evil from reoccuring.

Lev. 26:7-8 "You will pursue your enemies and they will fall by the sword before you."

vs.

Luke 6:27,28, 35 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you...But love your enemies, do good to them and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."

Most things cannot be covered with a blanket plan. Different situations call for different responses. For instance, sometimes in this country we resolve conflict with diplomatic relations, other times we just blow the heck out of the opposition.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) "I make peace and create evil..." (God speaking) The NIV helped this along some, but not much, by retranslating it "I bring prosperity and create disaster..."

Well, since God created everything, one must deal with the thought that he created evil well.

How about this picture of God?

Exodus 4:24 "At the lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him."

This passage comes out of nowhere and makes no sense.

We cannot know every aspect of God as we are not God. We must believe he is just.

There are many references to mythical creatures in the KJV Bible, but these have been edited by newer translations. (I guess the scholars found it embarrasing to say that unicorns would walk in Babylon...)

Isaiah 34:7 Unicorns

Isaiah 13:21 Satyrs

Numbers 13:32-34 Giants

Jeremiah 8:17 Cockatrices

I knew Giants were in the bible. Have you ever seen the movie BIG FIsh? I think the giant in that movie is a real giant, but I could be wrong. I don't even know what Satyrs or cockatrices are, but it sounds like they might have needed RAID for the latter. And I didn't know that there were unicorns mentioned either, but if they had them in the bible, I guess they've gone extinct.

The contradictions on the Resurrection account are many and this is already getting long, so I'll leave it at this.

Yes, the contradictions on the Resurrection can be a bit disturbing, but one thing is clear: All agreed Jesus died. All agreed Jesus arose from the dead. All agreed that many saw him after his resurrection. There are no books out there from people of the time that says. "I was there and let me tell you that these apostles are a bunch of liars because they killed him and he is still dead."

Hope that helps.

[emeraldgirl]

Deist,

I wasn't going to post any further in this thread, but since you salvaged it by saying something intelligent, I thought you deserved some response. Nice to see someone actually address each one point-by-point. Kind of ironic it's someone who is not Inerrancy camp.

Here are my thoughts on your responses:

These can be attributed to simple copying errors. Remember, all of this was being transcribed before computers or copy machines, written with quills or other rudimentary tools, hauled around on the backs of camel, and stored in jars. I think we can give humanity a little leeway here in that the message is not really changed that much even with the difference in numbers. We could just say:"There were a LOT of horses and a LOT of horsemen and stalls."

True, and certainly, I don't much care the exact number of horses, stalls, chariots, tvs or DVD players he had. For me, it casts doubt on the idea that this is God's protected book. God could have really stunned us with dead-on accurracy in every matter. Instead he left us with mistakes. Why? (That's a rhetorical "why".)

Another copy error. We could agree that in either case he was young when he began his reign.

Ditto for that one.

Well, it was God after all that created Satan. Either way, god being omnipotent knew that David would take a census.

This leads into that hard place of why would God create Satan, or why doesn't he just bind him and cast him into the lake of fire now, or why didn't he do it before he made people, etc., I'm not really asking those questions anymore, but that is a large obstacle for me in believing the Bible is God's Word.

I've actually heard this explained as this: Judas bought a field and hung himself. When the rope holding him broke, he fell headlong and his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. (Probably because he'd been rotting awhile.) Sounds logical if you think about it.

I did hear this before. It's in the margins of my Bible. But it sounds like excuse-making to me. Oh well.

No one has ever seen God in the "God the Father" form. When he spoke to Moses "face to face", that doesn't mean Moses actually saw his face, but rather "heard his voice directly" rather than just "felt" his voice through his spirit (considering the Holy Spirit wasn't on the earth at that time anyway.) When Jacob said he has seen God face to face, he is speaking figuratively, meaning he saw the evidence of God in possibly some aspect of creation..

Same with this as the Judas one. It sounds like we can't take it for what it says; we have to worm our way out of the actual text.

I don't think putting someone to death in a just system for the murder of another is repaying evil with evil. It is preventing evil from reoccuring.

Most things cannot be covered with a blanket plan. Different situations call for different responses. For instance, sometimes in this country we resolve conflict with diplomatic relations, other times we just blow the heck out of the opposition.

Well, I'm more of a pacifist, but at least your answer makes sense.

Well, since God created everything, one must deal with the thought that he created evil well.

Yes. Troubling.

We cannot know every aspect of God as we are not God. We must believe he is just.

Yes. That is where the crises for me rests.

I knew Giants were in the bible. Have you ever seen the movie BIG FIsh? I think the giant in that movie is a real giant, but I could be wrong. I don't even know what Satyrs or cockatrices are, but it sounds like they might have needed RAID for the latter. 24.gif And I didn't know that there were unicorns mentioned either, but if they had them in the bible, I guess they've gone extinct.

A cockatrice is like a giant rooster, I think with a tail like a serpant, that can put you to death with a look. Satyrs are those half-goat, half-human things. I haven't investigated the whole of these "in context", but I think they are part of prophecies about Babylon. "The unicorns will come down..." and "the satyrs will dance there...." I'm sorry I don't have my Bible handy, or I could tell you with more accuracy. And the cockatrice is something God is "going" to send to punish the Israelites. (Or someone else. But I think it was the Isrealites.)

Yes, the contradictions on the Resurrection can be a bit disturbing, but one thing is clear: All agreed Jesus died. All agreed Jesus arose from the dead. All agreed that many saw him after his resurrection. There are no books out there from people of the time that says. "I was there and let me tell you that these apostles are a bunch of liars because they killed him and he is still dead."

I agree with you on this. I actually do believe the resurrection happened, or the apostles definately thought it did. This is one "argument" that, when researched, I feel it's the Atheists who seem to be grasping at straws. I feel it's those who argue against the resurrection that seem to be trying to explain away what is plain.

So, then I find myself in somewhat of a conundrum. I'm basically Deistic, but I do believe in the resurrection. So why did that happen? (rhetorical, again.) The Gospel writers certainly didn't seem to think they were writing what would become The Bible. They just wrote what happened. But, then it troubles me again - the idea of God's special protection on this book. He would have been more careful if this was so crucial, it seems to me.

Why should believing the Bible - if the Bible has the information we must believe to know the God who wants a relationship with us - be so difficult? So unbelievable? This is where it goes down hill for me.

But thank you for a respectful post that at least works to solve Biblical problems.