FailedChristian Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 89 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 Utter trite...people have free will and people sin..If God had everything planned, then how could you possibly make a decision for Christ? This is a great example of the mumbo-jumbo that defies scripture and makes a mockery of Love. So....if God doesn't have everything planned then why does scripture say,"All things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes"? I'm very sorry you're feeling so wounded. I'm just hoping this won't turn into a resentment for you.... It sounds to me like it already has. He has to come to grips with the Sovereignty of God if he is ever to be free! God is sovereign. You judge me harshly, like the majority of Christians I've met. I am not resentful. I am aware of the evil that passes for church. That evil originates from men, not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candi770 Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 119 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,316 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/01/1970 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Failchristian, Theology?? - Experience. I know my authority in Christ and I operate accordingly. But I do not have control over others. Those who give control over to the enemy, who are christians as I said (false sheppards-leaders, etc) will pay for their actions and will face the consiquences of their actions. Christians do not get away with anything. But neither are you allowed to be in unforgiveness. If you can't forgive them, you yourself will not be forgiven of Father God. We are all without excuse. So, accordingly, I'm not going to give you a soothing peaceful word-because you are still reponsible for your attitude and actions. Again, we are all without excuse!!! We must forgive and not walk in unforgiveness with them. It was good to get out of there. The devil is a real enemy and you are sadly mistake to believe that he can not use anything against us, even so more when we are following the will of God for our life. I have been fortunate enough to get warning from God when attacks have come. Unless you have walked this thing out and let the Lord completely deal with you, and of course, you've heard from God to do this you are not ready to counsel others. blessings candi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FailedChristian Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 89 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 Utter trite...people have free will and people sin..If God had everything planned, then how could you possibly make a decision for Christ? This is a great example of the mumbo-jumbo that defies scripture and makes a mockery of Love. So....if God doesn't have everything planned then why does scripture say,"All things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes"? I'm very sorry you're feeling so wounded. I'm just hoping this won't turn into a resentment for you.... It sounds to me like it already has. He has to come to grips with the Sovereignty of God if he is ever to be free! That makes me so sad.... Save your pity. i am not resentful. I am pointing out that churches hurt people, not because God wants this to happen, but because people choose to judge and condemn others. They eat their own: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. Galatians 5:15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Share Posted August 1, 2006 I am not resentful. I am aware of the evil that passes for church. That evil originates from men, not God. "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil" (Matt 4:1 NIV). "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Share Posted August 1, 2006 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. (II Co 1:8-9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger398 Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 562 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,074 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 648 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/01/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1966 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Praying for you and family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tah Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/12/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2006 Lord Bless your family.. do not give up on finding a "Family" to fellowship with... I do believe we need each other.. each one of us has a part to play in His body and we need to find our spot of giving and receiving .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyRaven Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,981 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1964 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Utter trite...people have free will and people sin..If God had everything planned, then how could you possibly make a decision for Christ? This is a great example of the mumbo-jumbo that defies scripture and makes a mockery of Love. So....if God doesn't have everything planned then why does scripture say,"All things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes"? I'm very sorry you're feeling so wounded. I'm just hoping this won't turn into a resentment for you.... It sounds to me like it already has. He has to come to grips with the Sovereignty of God if he is ever to be free! That is not easy, however. You have to come to a place where you say as Luther did that if God told you to go eat dung and you knew it was God, you would do so knowing that in the end it would be for your Good. Until you can say "Though he slay me, yet i will trust in Him." Knowing that God had my whole past planned including my sexual abuse, my father's alcoholism, my verbal and mentally abusive philandering exhusband was hard for me. When I followed a more "freewill" based theology, I had an easy way out. God wasn't involved at all. But then one day it dawned on me...Even if God hadn't decided per se, that this would happen, He has ultimate power over the universe, he stopped the sun from setting to allow a battle to finish... now if Got didn't have it "planned" for a reason, but just let it happen how can I say that he is sovereign, that he has ultimate authority. How can I say that God is in control if He isn't? ANd how can I trust a God who is powerless to do what is best for me? This left me with the only other option...that supposedly God loved me, enough to die for me, and yet planned this whole mess. Neither vew is really comforting while you are feeling like a victim. However, once you decide that it is best to embrace all the dark times of life, accept that they are a lesson for you, accept that they are fertilizer for your growth, and because of this they are a gift from a loving creator who has your best interests and the best interests of the universe in mind... dung tastes alot better that way. And IMO it's much more scriptural. In the end it matters not to me if people accept me, if they agree with my theology or if they accept my personality and temperament. God has accepted me, God loves me, Jesus died for me, Jesus called me before the world existed 2Tim1:9. I'd like to have friends, I'll always act worthy of having friends...but if I don't...I'll live. Same thing goes with being accepted at church. the only time I will separate from a church is when I cannot go along eith the doctrine in peace and must leave lest I cause a schism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyRaven Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,981 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1964 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Utter trite...people have free will and people sin..If God had everything planned, then how could you possibly make a decision for Christ? This is a great example of the mumbo-jumbo that defies scripture and makes a mockery of Love. So....if God doesn't have everything planned then why does scripture say,"All things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes"? I'm very sorry you're feeling so wounded. I'm just hoping this won't turn into a resentment for you.... Read your Old Testament. You will note many times when the Children of Israel were disobedient. If God is in complete control, and our lives are nothing but fate-driven, then no reason would exist for salvation. Evil actions do not originate from God. An evil spirit does. read how God placed an evil spirit on Saul. Satan cannot place spirits on people. No scripture supports such garbage. Free will is necessary for there to be love. "All things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes": Read that again: ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSES. That means that some are NOT acting according to His purposes... I was in achurch that acted Not according to His purposes...result: evil actions. Not all are called according to his purposes. There is no reason to believe however that when people act against the revealed will of God that hey are behaving beyond the soveriegn will of God. Otherwise He could not promise that all things will work together for good for those who love and are called. Basic grammar here .... for those who love him and are called is modifying "all things work together" .....for good is also modifying "all things work together" The basic sentance is without modifiers is "all things work together" "according to his purposes" is also a modifier, it could modify the modifier "and are called" (meaning those are called according to his purposes, ie those who receive a call do so because God purposes it) or it could modify the main sentance "all things work together"...(meaning all things work together according to his purposes, ie if anything happens it happens according to his desires) One way of reading the grammar says that for those who are called according to his purposes and who love Him will have all things work together for good. Ie, if you receive a call and respond and love God as it was purposed...then all things will work together for good (presumably in your life) One way of reading the grammar says That for those who love the lord and are called, all things work together according to his purposes, ie, for good. Ie, when things happen it's because God purposed them, and if you are called and have responded (love Him) then all things will work together for good (presumably in your life) Basically two ways of saying the same thing. But it does not say that when people are not living according to his purposes nothing will work together for good, because "according to his purposes" has nothing to do with how these people are living, that isn't there in the verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted August 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Share Posted August 2, 2006 In the end it matters not to me if people accept me, if they agree with my theology or if they accept my personality and temperament. God has accepted me, God loves me, Jesus died for me, Jesus called me before the world existed 2Tim1:9. I'd like to have friends, I'll always act worthy of having friends...but if I don't...I'll live. Same thing goes with being accepted at church. the only time I will separate from a church is when I cannot go along eith the doctrine in peace and must leave lest I cause a schism. From what I understand of what you said, I think I pretty much agree with most everything you stated here. You bring up an excellent point about God's involvement in our lives - either he has a plan for our lives and allows junk to happen as part of his ultimate plan and purpose or else he just doesn't care and he just lets bad stuff happen to us, or else he is somehow powerless to act on our behalf. I struggled with that for many years. I think I finally came to grips with this in entirety back in 2002 while going through a time of personal revival. I asked the Lord to show me who I needed to forgive, and I forgave those people, but I still felt there was someone I needed to forgive, so I asked him for a name. The name he gave me was "Jesus." Now, Jesus obviously does not need to be forgiven for anything, but what it revealed to me in my heart was an unforgiving heart toward Jesus because of all the bad stuff he allowed in my life. When we respond to our circumstances with a feeling of unfairness, then we are basically telling God he wasn't watching; he was not noticing; he didn't care. So, when we get bitter, it is because we feel God let us down, though we might not verbalize that or even consciously realize that. I did not always respond correctly to my circumstances. I had a breaking point at which I just gave up, because I didn't understand that God was in control. And, even though I had been back serving him for awhile, still there was an underlying hurt deep inside me because, whether I recognized it or not, I believed that God had somehow done to me what my mother did. He did not protect me from hurt. In fact, he allowed this hurt to come into my life. So, right there and then I forgave Jesus for not protecting me from all that hurt and I surrendered to his Sovereignty over my life. Then, the peace came. Then I truly understood that he was there all the time, that he never left me, and that everything that happened in my life was by his divine purpose to make me into the person he wanted me to be. And, I knew his love and grace like I had never known it before. There is such freedom in understanding the Sovereignty of God and his involvement in our personal lives. I would much rather know that he allowed everything for some divine purpose in my life than to feel that he just stood idly by and watched it happen and was powerless or did not care to intervene on my behalf. I noticed that you made no mention of church abuse in your life. And, then you stated that you would never leave a church except for doctrinal issues. I mean this will all due respect, but you mentioned you have an X-husband. I don't know who left whom, but I wonder if perhaps you separated from him due to the abuse. Would that be a correct statement? Would you have continued to be married to him and allowed him to continue to abuse you? Do you feel that is the right thing to do? Maybe it was his choice and you would have remained, I don't know. But, let's just say for the sake of argument that you left him because of the abuse. This is a relationship about which the Bible states "the two shall become one flesh," and "what God has joined together let no man put asunder" or something like that. Marriage is an example of our relationship with Christ. But, I know of nowhere in scripture that we are held to such a high standard of faithfulness in relationships as we are to our relationship with our Lord and with our spouse. I can join to this body as well as to that body, and if I have my choice, I would prefer a body that did not mistreat me. I'm still part of the body. I'm just joining myself to a healthy body instead of an unhealthy one. God commands us to take care of his temple, and I believe that means emotionally, spiritually and physically (I could do better on this one). I know you were just offering your opinion, and again I mean no disrespect to your situation, but I hoped maybe this illustration might help you to understand why people who have been abused by churches leave those churches. Of course, you are free to do whatever your conscience allows you to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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