Influences of Rock Music

[Vickilynn]

Okay...I realize this is an old topic, but I really wanna add my two-cents.

First... Nobody who claims to serve Christ should be purchasing music made by persons who are unbelievers. It is like sleeping with the enemy. You are financially supporting a person who writes music from a worldly perspective. Even if the lyrics are not "evil" they are still at odds with God.

Shalom Axxman,

May I ask you related questions?

Do you go out to eat? Do you shop in a grocery store? Do you buy gasoline for your car? Do you buy clothes?

Do you refuse to pay your money to a business that is not owned by Christians, thus financially supporting unbelievers?

This argument is not a valid one in my opinion because we do not live in a world of Christians. We do business with unbelievers. We financially support unbelievers by buying their services. I buy cookbooks, but I don't restrict my cookbooks to only Christians.

So, I understand that you stay away from secular music, and you have a right to your opinion, but the financial argument isn't applicable.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Lyrics are the things that really make something "good" or "bad" in terms of "godly" music. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "satanic" beat, or evil music based off of the sounds certain instruments make, it's all about the lyrics. Similarly, there could be satanic lyrics in a light rock song just as easily as in a death metal song.

Now I personally love many different types of music, and I don't care necessarily if the lyrics are "christian" or not. If the lyrics are satanic on the other hand, that is a different story, but again I don't listen to music for the lyrics, I listen for the noise of it, and for personal enjoyment. I recently sat down and listened to the lyrics of one song in particular that I enjoy, and was shocked to see how much "darker" it was than I originally thought. I guess the point of this example is that I don't usually look at the lyrics, I just look at the noise the singer's voice makes in harmony with the background music.

I listen to music because I enjoy it. If I don't enjoy it, I won't listen to it, plain and simple. I like some christian music, but most of it I don't enjoy because personally it comes off as preachy and too "pop" for my personal taste. Similarly, I enjoy some music that may be considered distasteful by some people here, but I listen because I enjoy the noise of it. I could care less what the lyrics are (some exceptions apply on the fringes of course) as long as I enjoy how the song is put together.

I think I said enjoy about 5000 times.

[Vickilynn]

Lyrics are the things that really make something "good" or "bad" in terms of "godly" music. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "satanic" beat, or evil music based off of the sounds certain instruments make, it's all about the lyrics. Similarly, there could be satanic lyrics in a light rock song just as easily as in a death metal song.

Shalom Hamburgers,

I agree.

And, I have heard the argument so many times that the "beat" itself is satanic and I have yet to see any Scripture that says so.

So, since it's not a Biblically-supported theory, it is a matter of personal prayer and conviction. And in these areas, there is grace towards others who believe differently than ourselves.

Music was created by G-d and used for worship. Man takes things of G-d and uses them for evil purposes. That doesn't mean the music is evil simply because some use music for evil. The music itself still belongs to G-d and unless there are evil lyrics or other things attached to the music, the music itself is good. At least that's how I understand it.

[Axxman]

Okay...since it seems I am pretty much the ONLY one here in favor of anti-secularism (or at least defending it) I hope you all bear with me as I try to answer you. I think I have been somewhat misunderstood...but only slightly. I'll do my best to explain, and MOST IMPORTANTLY I appreciate all your questions and comments as I find the fellowship VERY enjoyable.

AK said: Why are non-Christian songs wrong? By your idea, we can no longer watch anything written, produced, acted out, etc by a non-Christian. Why use anything that has been made by a non-Christian?

We are called to be separate in morality, not in how we live our day to day lives, down to the very minuscule detail. I'm not going to buy "testa-mints" because it has a cross on it, and deny myself Certs simply because it's "non-Christian." This is actually remnants of an old heresy called Gnosticism. In essence, by trying to be spiritual, you actually end up on the wrong end of the spectrum.

Not ALL non-christian songs are bad/evil. However...non-christians are by their very nature in enmity with God. So while a non-christian may write an occasional song that is seemingly in line with our beliefs, that is the exception, not the rule. You would be hard pressed to find a non-christian musician that NEVER wrote about non-christian ideologies. SO my question is WHY support those people? Why would you support somebody who writes music from a sould that is in enmity with your Saviour? I would agree that this theology puts us in a position of having to watch out for ANYTHING no matter what media form it is in...but I don't necessarily find that a bad thing. There are some authors who write fiction (i.e. make believe) stories but then act as if they are based in truth...that is a danger. Same with TV, plays, and art exhibits. Lastly...there is a wealth of scientific evidence that MUSIC affects our brains more than any other form of media.

Why wouldn't you buy a mint with a cross on it? The point of the testa-mints is to spark conversation, thats it. Also, I clearly stated earlier that I don't believe that you have to ONLY support Christians. If you want certs, but them. However...if you find out tomorrow that the company who produces Certs has got a plan to produce "Cert-ain Demons" with pentagrams on it...then you should cert-ainly stop buying them.

Gerioke said:You mean people like...

John Fogerty... Christian

Phil Keaggy... Christian

Bob Dylan... Christian

Johnny Cash... Christian

Etc.

Fogerty...had to look him up cuz I hadn't heard he was born again Christian. Still don't know it cuz he doesn't EVER mention it in interviews. In fact, I have a hard time believing that he would re-release an album of music celebrating his former association with clearly satanic CCR.

Keaggy...glad you mentioned him. I love this man as a brother in Christ, and his music is soooo special.

Dylan...his "christianity" lasted long enough to record two albums. He died claiming to be a humanist who made a deal with the devil.

Cash...An enigma. He sang songs written by KNOWN satanists...but claimed to be a Christian. If you wanna support a person who sings songs written by openly admitted satanists...thats your call.

vickilynn asked:Do you go out to eat? Do you shop in a grocery store? Do you buy gasoline for your car? Do you buy clothes?

Do you refuse to pay your money to a business that is not owned by Christians, thus financially supporting unbelievers?

This argument is not a valid one in my opinion because we do not live in a world of Christians. We do business with unbelievers. We financially support unbelievers by buying their services. I buy cookbooks, but I don't restrict my cookbooks to only Christians.

So, I understand that you stay away from secular music, and you have a right to your opinion, but the financial argument isn't applicable.

Of course, I get your point. For me its about influence. I have said that I don't think we have to support ONLY Christians. However, I would certainly support a person who claimed Christianity over someone who doesn't. This topic isn't about not giving $$$ to non-christians...for me its about not supporting a non-christian influence. Non-Christian musicians have a massive influence in our society and it is not wise (IMO) to give money to people who weld that type of influence. If a restaurant I loved began to attempt to influence non-Christian values...then I certainly would not continue going there. This is why I don't frequent bars, or strip clubs...they have a decidely non-christian influence on their patrons. However, I don't stop going to restaurants simply because they have wine on the menu, even though I am against the consumption of alcohol. The restaurants influence is not to get you in to drink alcohol, they simply provide that option. A secular performers influence is decidedly non-christian.

You mentioned cookbooks, but I truly don't know how much influence a cookbook has over people, whether secular or Christian. However, if you had two cookbooks to choose from, I would hope you would support a fellow believer over a non-christian.

I hope I made a little sense here...lol

[Gerioke]

Dylan...his "christianity" lasted long enough to record two albums. He died claiming to be a humanist who made a deal with the devil.

Dylan's dead? When did that happen?

Phil Keaggy does secular music. You should be ashamed of yourself supporting such an evil product.

[Gerioke]

Dylan...his "christianity" lasted long enough to record two albums. He died claiming to be a humanist who made a deal with the devil.

Dylan's dead? When did that happen?

Phil Keaggy does secular music. You should be ashamed of yourself supporting such an evil product.

I just googled dylan and apparently he's touring this year. Quite a feat for a dead guy.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Axxman, thanks for clearing things up a bit. I think I understand your point.... but don't really agree with it

The thing that I DON'T like about buying solely Christian products is that it makes religion turn into business. When christians feel that they are required to buy soley christian goods, it essentially becomes a "market opportunity" for those who are looking to make money. I mean, there are lots of Christians in America. Slap a "christian" label onto something, and BAM, instant target market! The way I see it, just because you are Christian doesn't mean you need to block yourself off from anything that is not specifically christian. Secular doesn't necessarily mean anti-christian.

However...non-christians are by their very nature in enmity with God.

I guess this is probably the main reason we disagree, because I do not think this is the case. Many many non-christians out there do many of the same good acts that christians do, Christianity doesn't hold the monopoly of "good people" in the world. In fact, some of the kindest people I know happen to be non-Christian. The major difference is that they don't necessarily believe in God and Jesus, but they may still have many of the same human values that you and I share. Satanism would be considered by their very nature opposed to God, but I wouldn't go so far as to lump all non-christians up in this category.

[Floatingaxe]

Okay...since it seems I am pretty much the ONLY one here in favor of anti-secularism (or at least defending it) I hope you all bear with me as I try to answer you. I think I have been somewhat misunderstood...but only slightly. I'll do my best to explain, and MOST IMPORTANTLY I appreciate all your questions and comments as I find the fellowship VERY enjoyable.

AK said: Why are non-Christian songs wrong? By your idea, we can no longer watch anything written, produced, acted out, etc by a non-Christian. Why use anything that has been made by a non-Christian?

We are called to be separate in morality, not in how we live our day to day lives, down to the very minuscule detail. I'm not going to buy "testa-mints" because it has a cross on it, and deny myself Certs simply because it's "non-Christian." This is actually remnants of an old heresy called Gnosticism. In essence, by trying to be spiritual, you actually end up on the wrong end of the spectrum.

Not ALL non-christian songs are bad/evil. However...non-christians are by their very nature in enmity with God. So while a non-christian may write an occasional song that is seemingly in line with our beliefs, that is the exception, not the rule. You would be hard pressed to find a non-christian musician that NEVER wrote about non-christian ideologies. SO my question is WHY support those people? Why would you support somebody who writes music from a sould that is in enmity with your Saviour? I would agree that this theology puts us in a position of having to watch out for ANYTHING no matter what media form it is in...but I don't necessarily find that a bad thing. There are some authors who write fiction (i.e. make believe) stories but then act as if they are based in truth...that is a danger. Same with TV, plays, and art exhibits. Lastly...there is a wealth of scientific evidence that MUSIC affects our brains more than any other form of media.

Why wouldn't you buy a mint with a cross on it? The point of the testa-mints is to spark conversation, thats it. Also, I clearly stated earlier that I don't believe that you have to ONLY support Christians. If you want certs, but them. However...if you find out tomorrow that the company who produces Certs has got a plan to produce "Cert-ain Demons" with pentagrams on it...then you should cert-ainly stop buying them.

Gerioke said:You mean people like...

John Fogerty... Christian

Phil Keaggy... Christian

Bob Dylan... Christian

Johnny Cash... Christian

Etc.

Fogerty...had to look him up cuz I hadn't heard he was born again Christian. Still don't know it cuz he doesn't EVER mention it in interviews. In fact, I have a hard time believing that he would re-release an album of music celebrating his former association with clearly satanic CCR.

Keaggy...glad you mentioned him. I love this man as a brother in Christ, and his music is soooo special.

Dylan...his "christianity" lasted long enough to record two albums. He died claiming to be a humanist who made a deal with the devil.

Cash...An enigma. He sang songs written by KNOWN satanists...but claimed to be a Christian. If you wanna support a person who sings songs written by openly admitted satanists...thats your call.

vickilynn asked:Do you go out to eat? Do you shop in a grocery store? Do you buy gasoline for your car? Do you buy clothes?

Do you refuse to pay your money to a business that is not owned by Christians, thus financially supporting unbelievers?

This argument is not a valid one in my opinion because we do not live in a world of Christians. We do business with unbelievers. We financially support unbelievers by buying their services. I buy cookbooks, but I don't restrict my cookbooks to only Christians.

So, I understand that you stay away from secular music, and you have a right to your opinion, but the financial argument isn't applicable.

Of course, I get your point. For me its about influence. I have said that I don't think we have to support ONLY Christians. However, I would certainly support a person who claimed Christianity over someone who doesn't. This topic isn't about not giving $$$ to non-christians...for me its about not supporting a non-christian influence. Non-Christian musicians have a massive influence in our society and it is not wise (IMO) to give money to people who weld that type of influence. If a restaurant I loved began to attempt to influence non-Christian values...then I certainly would not continue going there. This is why I don't frequent bars, or strip clubs...they have a decidely non-christian influence on their patrons. However, I don't stop going to restaurants simply because they have wine on the menu, even though I am against the consumption of alcohol. The restaurants influence is not to get you in to drink alcohol, they simply provide that option. A secular performers influence is decidedly non-christian.

You mentioned cookbooks, but I truly don't know how much influence a cookbook has over people, whether secular or Christian. However, if you had two cookbooks to choose from, I would hope you would support a fellow believer over a non-christian.

I hope I made a little sense here...lol

Excellent! It's music---worship--that is the subject here. Music has power in it, and has the ability to affect the spirit of a man. We need to be great caretakers of our spirits. Influence of the enemy and defilement we must be diligent to avoid.

[Axxman]

Dylan...his "christianity" lasted long enough to record two albums. He died claiming to be a humanist who made a deal with the devil.

Dylan's dead? When did that happen?

Phil Keaggy does secular music. You should be ashamed of yourself supporting such an evil product.

Hmmm...the last photo I saw of Dylan...he certainly looked dead

Regarding Phil Keaggy... A) He's a Christian, who has written some VERY beautiful music. As a Christian I am not supporting secualr musicians by supporting Phil Keaggy, I am supporting a Christian artist. B) If Phil Keaggy does secular music I wouldn't know it because I don't buy or listen to secular music. You'll have to enlighten me on this so called "worldly" music that Keaggy is involved with.

Wouldn't be the first time that somebody duped me with the "I'm a Christian musician" claim. I can only be responsible for my intentions, and my intentions are good...even when I buy Phil Keaggy's music.

[Axxman]

Axxman, thanks for clearing things up a bit. I think I understand your point.... but don't really agree with it

The thing that I DON'T like about buying solely Christian products is that it makes religion turn into business. When christians feel that they are required to buy soley christian goods, it essentially becomes a "market opportunity" for those who are looking to make money. I mean, there are lots of Christians in America. Slap a "christian" label onto something, and BAM, instant target market! The way I see it, just because you are Christian doesn't mean you need to block yourself off from anything that is not specifically christian. Secular doesn't necessarily mean anti-christian.

I don't buy Christian products to make religion a business. I buy it because I like to surround myself and my surroundings with things that remind me of Christ, my salvation, and my responsibilities. Quite frankly, I don't get that by listening to Zeppelin and having Stephen King on the bookshelf. I wear as many Christian t-shirts as possible, and recently bought my first pair of Ezekiel Jeans...bit more expensive than Levi's, but who cares. There is NOTHING wrong with making money as a Christian, as long as you honor God in that blessing. Personally, I wish more companies would listen to you and realize there is a market for Christian products, because quite frankly, I feel the worldliness in our times is just about over-cooked.

I guess this is probably the main reason we disagree, because I do not think this is the case. Many many non-christians out there do many of the same good acts that christians do, Christianity doesn't hold the monopoly of "good people" in the world. In fact, some of the kindest people I know happen to be non-Christian. The major difference is that they don't necessarily believe in God and Jesus, but they may still have many of the same human values that you and I share. Satanism would be considered by their very nature opposed to God, but I wouldn't go so far as to lump all non-christians up in this category.

I agree with you, this is the main reason we're not quite seeing eye-to-eye on this. Personally, I think thats okay. I realize that I sound a bit legalistic and overboard. That is not my intention, and I try to not be jugemental about it. Once you guys get to know me, you'll find this is a recurring theme with me in most area's of my life. I am very pro-Christian. I don't care how much "good" non-christians do because "their righteousness is like filthy rags." You'd think that what little good they do would matter, but it doesn't. I find it interesting that you say "some of the kindest people you know are non-christians." I can't really echo that sentiment because I don't really know any non-christians, nor do I care too. I have NOTHING in common with them. I can't hang out with non-christians because ultimately they can't discuss the things I like to discuss. They usually want to discuss the worldly things that appeal to them, and I just wanna share Jesus with them. I just wind up being that "Jesus guy" that doesn't get invited back to the barbeque. Honestly, thats okay by me.

I enjoy Worthy because I can talk to people who have the same passion for Christ as I do (in most cases) and I LOVE THAT! I would rather talk about stuff like this all day long with fellow Brothers and Sisters than talk to my neighbor about whatever worldly garbage he's involved in. I don't need people to agree with my position on music, politics, sports, or science. Just tell me you have an interest in growing spiritually and fellowshipping and I'll talk your ear off.