Openly Curious Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2006 dood, The reason "why" we did it well we didn't do it Adam did and death passed upon all. The why lies in one thing and that is the serpent entered the garden where man was put to dress it and keep it for that was his job given to him by God himself. The serpent who is the devil came to Eve in the form of a serpent and lied to her the serpent "tricked" her he decieved Eve who was the weaker vessel of the two. And being decieved she fell for the devil lies that he told her and she ate from the forbidden tree. Then she gave to Adam to eat. Now Adam was not decieved by the serpent Adam just flat our rebelled against the law of God without Satan in the form of a serpent coming to him and tricking him through lies to eat from the forbidden tree. The reason "why" they fell was because the serpent entered their world and brought "temptation" to them and they fell into it as Eve was in the transgression as she was decieved and then Adam rebelled against the law of God. Eternal damnation passed upon all of mankind from that point on And it is through one man Jesus Christ who is the second Adam it speaks about in Romans that life eternal life passes upon all whom recieve Him as Lord and Saviour from the penalty of sin. In the same way as it did through Adam. Death came by Adam but life comes through Christ. So the reason "Why" is because the serpent entered the garden and brought "temptation" in the world in which Eve was deceived and tricked and then Adam fell as well. Openly Curious I'm not argueing that adam made error, that christ died on the cross or that the devil is king of temptation. Or there was trickery involved etc. None of that nor am I enquiring about the story of adam and eve in the form of how it played out. I'm asking why it played it the way it did. What was the lesson that needed to be learned. Why was the knowledge of Good and evil needed to be required before they eat of the tree. God put the tree there for a reason. Not only for a reason but God also went on to say "For in the day that you do eat thereof" He already knew Eve would eat of the tree before she did it. God already knew she and adam would be disobientent before they actually were. Knowing this God must of choose to allow the disobience anyway. Why was this necessary? dood, again yes God did allow it "because" He had a "plan" and that plan was to once again to righten the wrong that was done in the garden by the serpent as it is in God's plan to rid the devil from once and for all as he will end up in the lake of fire which burneth forever as it say in the book of Revelation. God's plan from the beginning from the foundation of the world as it says in the book of Ephesians was to justify us through his son Jesus Christ. I do know what you are talking about. OC I think there must be a lesson in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2006 OC: Half a dozen other people have replied and knew exactly what the topic of discussion is. I'm sorry I've tried to work with you and I failed on this. I can't explain anymore. But thank you. Only other idea I can come up with is reading this thread from the beginning as us bickering is distroying the thread as we are not seeing eye to eye. Now others (myself included) have to filter through the remains our massive logs to get to the relevant information. I do not wish to ruin this thread anymore. Thanks dood, you have it all wrong I am not bickering but discussing with you on topic as I understand the thread quite well but you do not want to acknowledge that I really do understand the discussion. I am sorry you feel the way that you do. It is with an open mind that we learn I am sorry you have closed yours off. But God has a plan whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Openly Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2006 blessings to you dood and you are so wrong about me and I never said not one time anywhere in my post that you did not understand your own question. Instead you said I didn't understand the question you asked and I simply replied that I did understand the question you asked and also I understood the thread. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 923 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/03/1974 Author Share Posted August 28, 2006 ummmmm Okay, to the topic in hand, i'm just gonning to recap from all the threads in brief bullet points so that anyone who joins in can understand exactly what it is we are discussing:- 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2. On the earth God made a land called Eden. 3. In Eden God placed a particularily beautiful garden. 4. In that garden God placed two trees. 5. The Tree of Life. 6. The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. 7. In that garden God placed Adam and the first woman (Eve). 8. Whilst in that garden God commanded Adam and Eve not to touch the tree of Knowledge. 9. Whilst in that garden Eve ate from the tree and so did Adam 10. Resulting in their banishment from said garden. Now these points are generally not in dispute, apart from a small query within point 8. Which i'm going to get to shortly. The stage which we are at now is, given all the things we have discussed, and God knowing from before point 1 what would happen if He placed that tree in the garden, together with Adam and Eve, He knew that they would sin, so why do it? God knew that the serpent would tempt Eve and He knew that Eve would eat of the fruit and give to her husband Adam, so why, knowing all the pain that we would cause, why is now the question? We generally already know the who, the what, the when and the how. I'm going to leave answering the why until the last dood, as I have still got a few thoughts jiggling around in my head. I want to address that slight query you have with point 8. Get ready for a scripture throwing festival!! Let's look at that verse Genesis Chapter 2 v 16 -17 (KJV) And the Lord God commanded the man saying, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:" .....(you would have probably thought yummy at this point, a feast right at your fingertips, no need for KFC or the macDonalds crew in those days, everything was additive free, there was no delivery fees, no restrictions, ...or was there?)........."but".........(aha you mean there's a catch, so you need to listen up cause this bit is very important)............."of the TREE of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil"...........(you mean that tree there, that lovely tree with that gorgeous fruit, that's the tree you're talking about?)................"thou shalt not eat".............(you mean we're not allowed even a nibble, well that's like leaving a kid alone in a sweetie shop! But you said i'm not allowed to eat it so I won't)..........FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF........(you mean there's gonna come a day when I will???? Not me, i'd never disobey you)................"thou shalt surely die!" (well that settles it think Adam, noway, nohow, am I touching that tree, and off he goes). Remember when you were a kid and your mom would say, "Don't eat all that chocolate at once, you'll be sick." But it tastes so good, doesn't seem like it could do any harm, but half an hour later, you're wrapped in a blanket on sofa, groaning and moaning. And your mom's saying "I told ya so, but ya wouldn't listen, now let that be a lesson to you.!" Okay, the bits in the brackets folks are my addition, it's not a new type of Bible, it's just a possible scenario! The words outside the brackets are the KJV words, just incase there's any confusion. 1. God commanded (charged to them that they were free to eat of every tree) however, 2. God forbade, "thou shalt not", (the eating from the tree of knowledge), 3. God Knew, that they would (and we know that they did). Are the above three points agreed between us dood? It is the absolute forbidding to eat from the tree of knowledge, and yes I agree that God knew that they would, but I don't want to go too much deeper into this at this stage because I want now to clarify some points you made to me. Now let me get this right dood, in your last post to me, you queried a possibility, or a thought of the following, i'm quoting from memory here:- 1. Adam and Eve encountered evil by default, ie they were not told or forewarned by God that the serpent had a screw loose (they had not be told he was evil). 2. Adam and Eve encountered evil by default, by the tree being put there in the first place. 3. God knew that Adam and Eve were going to eat of the tree, so why put it there in the first place, God knew that the serpent was evil, so why allowed the serpent in the garden in the second instance. So you thought all things now being considered was this a trap on God's behalf? dood I thought you said you weren't into conspiracy theories My gut instinct tells me no, but that same gut instinct is telling me you want scriptural knowledge and confirmation of this, an explanation as to why God continued with creation. So off I go on a scripture hunt, i'm quite sure i'll be sitting here till the wee small hours of the morning, you're not the easiest person to convince you know............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribulation Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 142 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2006 Not so much as turned his back, but more of a confusion that was created. I think god is there and the knowledge of how to get back to him persay is inside of everyone. It's just a matter of proper comprehension in my eyes. For a quick example. You have a child who is doing something wrong (although it isn't really bad just wrong) You attempt several times to explain. The kid doesn't understand. Eventually You think well he's going to have to learn the lesson the hard way. You know this. But the kid doesn't. So you let him do it his way alreadying knowing in advance that after his wrong is experienced he'll turn back to you. With that I am saying I think people choose to turn their back temporary on God and God most likely allowed this knowing in the end people will find the right path anyway. Okay. Fair enough. I competely agree with you. I believe in the good morals that is suppose to be behind the develop of the church, although I do question the end result. Meaning i see those 10 previously post examples as part of the end result. Okay. You're saying you still question the end result? Why? The last part of your reply in regards to adam and eve, Two more questions just popped in my head that just strengthen my personal view even more in regards to the tree of knowledge of good and evil that it was indeed a trap laid out for them and they had no choice but to fall. Like Anne, I wouldn't mind if you could clarify your side of the argument before I go about responding - especially as it seems that others have mistakenly missed the point of the debate. Basically, you're wondering why God put the tree there in the first place, along with instructions not to eat - knowing that they would eat from the tree anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 28, 2006 He told Adam not to eat it. Adam still ate it. Adam told Eve not to touch it. She chose to listen to the serpent. Lesson I get: people are going to do what they want to do, regardless of how many times they're told, how many different ways, whatever. People who want to obey, do. People who don't, won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 923 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/03/1974 Author Share Posted August 28, 2006 Billie you are absolutely correct, the question which I think dood is now getting at, with God foreknowing what would happen, why would He choose to go ahead with creation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Because even though He knew what would happen, that didn't change His reason for creating us to begin with. He wanted a family, people to love. He didn't need us. The Trinity was in perfect fellowship with itself, but He wanted more. Even though He knew we'd sin, that didn't make Him not love us and want us. He loves us regardless of sin, so that wouldn't have been a deterrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Amen, billie! He wants a people called by His name! People who choose Him, and whom He can love and bless! Isn't He an awesome God!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Amen, billie! He wants a people called by His name! People who choose Him, and whom He can love and bless! Isn't He an awesome God!! Yes, He's so great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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