Proof in the existance of God

[Fovezer]

Dr Luke! What great detective work!

And what a surprise! Was I right or was I right when I said that he probably frequents Christian message boards, trying to fight Christianity?

QUOTE

Fovezer(Thank God I'm an Atheist)

Yes, the proud athiest who worships his own intellect! You are SO smart fovezer not to believe in God! lol!

I thought you left? Oh well.....

If he were to show my next post, I recanted what I had said...

That whole "Thank God I'm an atheist" thing is just a joke...

Dr. Luke, slander is not very nice, either...

[Fovezer]

Hello to all.  I pray all of you had a great weekend holiday.  Although some of you continued the discussion throughout the holiday weekend, I did my best to stay away from my home computer.  Now that I

[Matthitjah]

Peace,

No joke, No slander!

Only truth.

Jesus Christ is the Son of G-d!

There was no joke with the thank God your an atheist. It is in your profile over there and your quite proud of it.

I will however pray for you. You may yet die tomorrow. Then that would be a shame.Judgment comes swiftly. Maybe tomorrow? Rend your heart and not your logic! I feel sorry for you. That someone has twisted you so bad. Where do you get this stuff? I still am commanded to Love you. You see we have something you don't. That is Faith, Hope, and Love! Love abides forever! Jesus Christ is Love!

I think you are scared that the Lord might require your TRUCK or something? Maybe something you can't give? But you see it wasn't yours to begin with anyway. I pray He humbles you gently. Your playing games with a Righteous and Just G-d. Snort, Snort! Do you hear that? I hear the Spirit! Snort, Snort! He's searching a mans heart.

1Ch

[sagz4Christ]

Fovezer,

First, let me say that I am pleased, at thankful that there is someone (Saved by Grace) that you seem to be able to talk to and respect somewhat. It seems to me that people are getting worn thin with this subject, and are having a hard time contributing productively to it's conclusion. You must understand though, and I think I already stated somewhere, that this is one of those topics that hit a nerve with people. With the same veracity (sp) that you defend evolution, and see any thoughts that go contrary to that theory as unintelligent and unfounded, we Christians see any theory/belief/pattern of thought that speaks of there not being a God in the first place as equally unfounded and bordering on the verge of personal attacks against one's family. We defend with the same fervor that you do, those beliefs we hold most dear.

I, for one appreciate you staying around to see this thing through. And like SAved by Grace has said, I too understand alittle about where you are. You see, my father had the very same hang-ups as you do about God, and Christianity in general. There was one time, about 20 or so years ago that a fellow pilot in his squadron came to his room one day and spent two or three hours laying out logical, and substanciated arguements for a belief in God, and for believing that Christianity was the only way to get to heaven.

All fine and good, but the basis for the arguement was the Bible itself. And after this man was finished talking, my father told him that he did a wonderful job laying out a persuasive, and substantiated arguement for a belief in God and the Gospel message. "But," my father told this man, "I don't buy the basis for your arguement. I don't believe the Bible."

My dad was in his early 20's when this conversation took place. He didn't come to know the Lord until he was in his early to mid 40's. My father told me this story, and what he ended with was this;

He told me that all the logical, and persuasive reasoning did not have one once of effect on him one way or the other. He never had a problem refuting ANYTHING that was said in defense of God, or of Christianity. What got him thinking...more than anything else that was said to him....was seeing this man's faith being lived out in front of him. Seeing this man's family interact at dinner, and seeing this man interact with a bunch of young Marine pilots...did more to convince him than any words could have.

My point is, friend, that trying to come to an understanding of God, or even more elementry, trying to come to a belief in a Creator, by it's very nature, demands more than purely physical evidence. It demands looking at interactions between varying systems in that creation. As was pointed out earlier about a single cell....concidering how small one cell is...and then considering that we have only mapped about 1/3 of it...looking at the structure, one could easily come to the conclusion of design...if that then designer....if that....then creation.....Creator.

However, as seems the case with you, you could say that evolution, given enough time...could bring that up...and indeed, you stated the following:

Science does not support a god, because all the evidence points the other way. Abiogenesis never said, all of a sudden, *poof*, a cell is here. It took a very long time to get all the pieces needed to make that first cell, and life from non-life has already been accomplished.

Life from non-life has been accomplished? I have not heard of that. If I could ask a few questions....

1. When did it happen?

2. What were the conditions?

3. How were those conditions met?

It is interesting though that you said it anyway. I have not heard of this claim. Then again...like my Christian brother, I am not a scientist. I just love logic. Admittedly though, more times than not, my eyes get crossed and I think I do myself more harm than good when I try to get "too logical!!"

I agree, the big picture must be looked at, but when you have no witnesses for, say evolution, you can and have to rely on science alone. Mathematics was not as exact as it is now. Back thousands of years, every culture had its own form of mathematics, and it all started out simple, like 2+2=4 kind of stuff. It then slowly but surely evolved into what it is today.

This brought up something you said earlier, and I can't seem to find where you said it. You said something about there not being any order in the universe. At least, I think that is how you put it. You may have said you didn't see any order. That is fine, but I have been thinking about that, and have come to the conclusion that I mis-understood you. You see, there HAS to be order SOMEWHERE. Take for instance, the following examples:

Way back before people knew about trigonomitry, or abstract numbers, they were doing math, and telling time by looking to the stars. In fact, alot of captains on ships, even though they have sophisticated navigation equipment, still look at the stars to tell where they are going. There has to be order somewhere in that don't you think? I mean, if it were chaos, then how could we navigate the oceans before satilites and radar? Recently, we have found something even more stable and accurate than the stars to help tell time. It is called the Atomic Clock. The atom used is called cesium, and it's resonance is set at "9,192,631,770 Hz so that when divided by this number the output is exactly 1 Hz, or 1 cycle per second.

"The long-term accuracy achievable by modern cesium atomic clocks (the most common type) is better than one second per one million years. Hydrogen atomic clocks show a better short-term (one week) accuracy, approximately 10 times the accuracy of cesium atomic clocks. Therefore, the atomic clocks have increased the accuracy of time measurement about one million times in comparison with the measurements carried out by means of astronomical techniques" (howstuffworks.com).

Can you see that this cannot be explained by chaos? I cna't believe that even given the billions of years needed for evolution to bring us here, that this kind of accuracy could be either by chance, natural selection, or by disorder. Though I may be missing something here, it is only one area that we can look at to see an explination for a Creator.

I am interested in seeing this through, and am glad you are as well. I have much more to say and ask, but I think this is a good place to pause and let you catch up.

~serving Christ in faith

[WayneB]

How can you defend your beliefs (of lack of them) without being a little stubborn, right?

I agree. I know that many will disagree with me but I see stubbornness as an asset...as long as it goes hand-in-hand with an open mind and a willingness to listen. When I read about the disciples of Jesus, I see a lot of stubbornness

[traveller]

Beautifully said Wayne

[Fovezer]

I agree. I know that many will disagree with me but I see stubbornness as an asset...as long as it goes hand-in-hand with an open mind and a willingness to listen. When I read about the disciples of Jesus, I see a lot of stubbornness

[sagz4Christ]

I agree 100%. Like I said, I had thought this was sagz4christ's post, and intended those compliments for him, but I see that you also are very well deserving of them, too.

:blush:

There is nothing like an undeserved compliment to make one........

:blush:

!!!!!!!!!!

[Fovezer]

First, let me say that I am pleased, at thankful that there is someone (Saved by Grace) that you seem to be able to talk to and respect somewhat.  It seems to me that people are getting worn thin with this subject, and are having a hard time contributing productively to it's conclusion.  You must understand though, and I think I already stated somewhere, that this is one of those topics that hit a nerve with people.  With the same veracity (sp) that you defend evolution, and see any thoughts that go contrary to that theory as unintelligent and unfounded, we Christians see any theory/belief/pattern of thought that speaks of there not being a God in the first place as equally unfounded and bordering on the verge of personal attacks against one's family.  We defend with the same fervor that you do, those beliefs we hold most dear.

I, too, am glad another intelligent person is here. But please don't call evolutoin a belief, because it is not. Evolution also says nothing about god period. There are many, if not most, Christians that believe in god and evolution. They are called theistic evolutionists.

My point is, friend, that trying to come to an understanding of God, or even more elementry, trying to come to a belief in a Creator, by it's very nature, demands more than purely physical evidence.  It demands looking at interactions between varying systems in that creation.  As was pointed out earlier about a single cell....concidering how small one cell is...and then considering that we have only mapped about 1/3 of it...looking at the structure, one could easily come to the conclusion of design...if that then designer....if that....then creation.....Creator.

I understand your point, but, you see, I did not and don't think I can come to the conclusion that it was created, because I see so much evidence the other way.

However, as seems the case with you, you could say that evolution, given enough time...could bring that up...and indeed, you stated the following:

No, I said abiogenesis. Big difference.

Life from non-life has been accomplished?  I have not heard of that.  If I could ask a few questions....

1.  When did it happen?

2.  What were the conditions?

3.  How were those conditions met?

It is interesting though that you said it anyway.  I have not heard of this claim.  Then again...like my Christian brother, I am not a scientist.  I just love logic.  Admittedly though, more times than not, my eyes get crossed and I think I do myself more harm than good when I try to get "too logical!!"

Like I said to Saved by Grace, I will post more information a little later

This brought up something you said earlier, and I can't seem to find where you said it.  You said something about there not being any order in the universe.  At least, I think that is how you put it.  You may have said you didn't see any order.  That is fine, but I have been thinking about that, and have come to the conclusion that I mis-understood you.  You see, there HAS to be order SOMEWHERE.  Take for instance, the following examples:

No, I said no design, not no order. I just don't believe that it is god-created order, just natural order.

I am interested in seeing this through, and am glad you are as well.  I have much more to say and ask, but I think this is a good place to pause and let you catch up.

Me, too. I am looking forward to an intellegent conversation without the likes of Dr. Luke and artsylady.

:blush:

There is nothing like an undeserved compliment to make one........

:blush:

!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, you deserve it, compared to all the others here, with the exception of Saved by Grace, you are very understanding and nice, unlike all the others, who have been very cold, insultive, arrogent, and with "Believe or burn in hell" attitudes.

[His son]

I agree that we differ on that, but evolution has been proven. It is a SCIENTIFIC theory. Don't say the infamous "It's just a theory" line, because I think you are smart enough to know the difference between a scientific theory and a regular theory. (If not, a scientific theory is a close to fact as you are going to get in science. Gravity is a scientific theory, too.)

This is not a true statement. In fact Christian scientists have proven that evolution is totaly a theory. And they have proven instant creation in the lab, so don't be taken in, trust God, and lean not to your own understanding.