Proof in the existance of God

[Fovezer]

I'm really not all that sure how I was rude.  There is no place on the net for tone of voice, so maybe you've got me wrong.  I'm hoping. 

Am I fiesty?  Yes I am.  Am I competitve?  Yes.  Mostly when it comes to debating and board games.  (I play a mean game of Risk)  But I refuse to cheat.  I have to win honestly. 

To me, that's how it sounded. If I'm mistaken, i'm sorry. That's just how I read it.

Because I have a fair bit of experience dealing with athiests, I know that it's true, discussions like this are futile.  You say you are open to evidence for God.  I mentioned proof of Noah's sons.  And evidence for King David.  And evidence for prophesy.  You asked about none of these things.  It really makes me wonder how open you really are, unless you've already heard all of the above.  If yes, these are all evidences for God.

No, you haven't. You just pointed out apparent errors in another persons arguement. You provided no sources. You never stated the proof you used to prove Noah's sons existed. The global flood theory has been thoroughly disproved, though.

If you can't look at the world around you and see that there might be a designer or creator involved, I'm not sure how open you really are.  You say it didn't happen by chance.  How then, did it all come about, if not by chance, in your opinion?

You also said in one post that you especially felt there was no evidence for Christianity.  I'm wondering why especially Christianity?

I never said the we weren't caused by chance, I said it wasn't the best word, but I was referring to evolution then, and not the universe in the whole. I feel that there is no evidence for ANY religion/diety, but I said Christianity because I'm on a Christian board.

Well, I'd certainly provide you with a ton of evidence for the Christian God, because there is a ton of evidence for it.  More than 500 peices of Biblicial archaeology alone.  Does that count for ANYTHING?

If you use the Bible as your proof, it is worthless. If you can provide other evidence, I would happily discuss it.

You would be very silly to refer to my belief as a fairy tale.  Why do your athiest friends spend their lives, writing books, joining clubs and spending their lives fighting against something they can liken to a fairy tale?

I never said it was. I just said how would you like it if I did. And I don't spend my life fighting against anything. Get that cult picture out of your head. I just enjoy debating.

In regards to the post about animals and humans.

Have you ever seen an animal praying before it eats? No. No animals, starving or otherwise, turn into spiritual beings.

Have they ever found a group of people anywhere on earth that were NOT worshipping something? No. Humans were created as spiritual beings. We have a need that we were created with that animals just do not have.

Yes, I have found a group of people who do not worship anything. They are called atheists/agnostics. We don't have a need to be spiritual. I feel no desire whatsoever to pray to/worship anything. See, since we are so ill-fitted to our enviroment, we evolved a larger, more capable brain to help us survive.

Like it or not, we are all animals.

[artsylady]

Fovezer:

To me, that's how it sounded. If I'm mistaken, i'm sorry. That's just how I read it.

I can understand how it might have read that way. I'll be honest. I'm not convinced that you are open to a beleif in God, but if you say you are, I will hold you to be open. Fair enough?

I said:

QUOTE

Because I have a fair bit of experience dealing with athiests, I know that it's true, discussions like this are futile. You say you are open to evidence for God. I mentioned proof of Noah's sons. And evidence for King David. And evidence for prophesy. You asked about none of these things. It really makes me wonder how open you really are, unless you've already heard all of the above. If yes, these are all evidences for God.

You replied

No, you haven't. You just pointed out apparent errors in another persons arguement. You provided no sources. You never stated the proof you used to prove Noah's sons existed. The global flood theory has been thoroughly disproved, though.

I said I just mentioned proof. No, I didn't give you proof. I wanted to see if you were wanting to see it. I wanted to see how open you were.

I never said the we weren't caused by chance, I said it wasn't the best word, but I was referring to evolution then, and not the universe in the whole. I feel that there is no evidence for ANY religion/diety, but I said Christianity because I'm on a Christian board.

Well, the universe didn't come into being through evolution. If it wasn't chance, then how did it happen?

If you use the Bible as your proof, it is worthless. If you can provide other evidence, I would happily discuss it

500 peices of archaeological evidence proving certain stories in the Bible historically accurate with or without the existance of a God as mentioned in the Bible. Does that count for ANYTHING?

So the only reason you said there was no proof of a God, ESPECIALLY a Christian God, was because you happened to be on a Christian message board???

I never said it was. I just said how would you like it if I did. And I don't spend my life fighting against anything. Get that cult picture out of your head. I just enjoy debating.

I was very careful not to say 'you'. I said 'your friends.' And you enjoy debating? What a surprise?

Yes, I have found a group of people who do not worship anything. They are called atheists/agnostics.

But these athiests are among worshippers. Most of them, like you, had in fact, been a worshipper to begin with. I mean, have they ever found athiests in any remote place? No, everywhere you go, whenever they find a new group of humans, they are worshipping something.

Besides, I feel that athiests are worshippers of their own intellect. And they worship their own intellect by fulfilling their need to fight God - writing books, debating - proving to themselves and each other how smart they are. (Not you specifically, of course)

Like it or not, we are all animals.

We are entirely different than animals. Anyone can see that.

ANd you didn't answer my question. You said that animals aren't spiritual because they don't have the need. Ever seen cows in a slaughterhouse praying for their lives? No, they don't. Remember, we humans are the smart ones. We know there is a higher power. Every person on every remote place on earth knows that much.

And dolphins are the closest in intelligence to humans, but still billions of miles apart. We aren't soon going to be asking them to help us with a cure for cancer, even if we could communicate with them.

The differences are too huge. You've got to be able to see that.

[jesusislord]

my friend, FOREZER, ACTUALLY THE PROOF OF THEEXISTANCE OF GOD IS NOT ON US........ WE HAVE NOTHING TO PROVE..... WE ALL KNOW THAT THERE IS A GOD...

THE PROOF IS UP TO YOU TO PROVE THAT THERE ISNO GOD...... THAT SIMPLE........

YOU PROVE US WRONG..

BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN LAWS IN THE UNIVERSE THAT NEVER CHANGE. ...

LIKE THE LAW OF GRAVITY.....

WITHOUT A LAW MAKER THERE IS NO LAW ......

MAY THE LORD SHOW U THE TRUTH OF HIS LOVE.

[Guest shiloh357]

Fovezer

Please forgive me if this sounds rude, but you are somewhat disingenuous. You claim that you will believe in God if we provide proof that would safisfy you intellectually. First of all, you have not outlined to anyone what that standard is.

Frankly, I have talked to people like you before. It really becomes pointless, because no matter how good the evidence is, no matter how respectable or reputable the source of our evidence is, you will find a way around believing.

I have talked to atheists or agnostics who say, "show me something scientific," and then when I do, they automatically dismiss it as nothing. We can show all manner of archeological evidence, we can show observable evidence from the natural world around us.

Seondly, It is somewhat of a pernicious scam. You claim to want to believe in God, ask for evidence, then reject the evidence while pretending to be openminded. It just becomes a vicious cycle. Personally, I think it is nothing more than an attempt at trying to make fools of Christians.

You said

If you use the Bible as your proof, it is worthless.

Well, the Bible is God's word. If you are open to believing in God, then the Bible would contain some measure of merit. If the Bible is not a credible source today, then it would not be credible tomorrow, even if we could find extra-biblical evidence that would make you happy.

Fovezer, you do not approach this debate honestly. You are unwilling to examine the merit of real evidence that has been provided. Anything that is provided you write it off almost as a knee-jerk reaction.

There is a parable in the Bible about a rich man and a poor man named Lazurus. Lazurus died and went to be with God, and the rich man died and went to Hell. The rich man begged Abraham to send Lazurus back from the dead to warn his brothers not to come to Hell. Abrahams response was,"They have Moses and the Prophets if they will not listen to them, they will not listen even if Lazurus were to come back from the dead." If you reject the testimony of Scripture, no amount of "evidence" we could provide would satisfy you. You will always find a way to "explain" why it is not evidence. You are a never-ending fountain of excuses.

To Everyone Else

You are as Jesus would say, "throwing your pearls before swine." No, I am not calling Fovezer "swine." I am simply saying that you are wasting your time with him/her. He/she is not genuinely looking for answers. This is a waste of your valuable time. This debate will continue ad nauseam and nothing will be accomplished. Some unbelievers take pleasure in tying Christians up in endless debates. It is a game they play. They have no intention of believing in Christ. All of you have been valiant in your attempts to provide Fovezer with ample evidence to believe in God. If this is not enough, then he/she will have to stand before God and give an account for rejecting what has been provided. Fovezer will be without excuse before the judgement seat of Christ. He/she cannot say that no one tried. You have done your best. It is between Fovezer and God, now. JMHO.

[Matthitjah]

Greetings and Bless you all richly in Jesus Christ!

Shilo I agree somewhat with you. Actually quite a bit. To say he will never believe is not good either. Something has led him here. It may be disingenouis? In that case you are 100 percent correct. It may be fear of the unknown. I have a fleshy brother of my family who says the same things. He, however, is worshipping himself. He is quite afraid that G-d might ask something of him he can't give. He is a big tall 6'5 230 LB 44 year old little boy afraid to let go of the hurt. He lets the old devil bully him into a self exiled little corner then pouts about how life isn't fair and G-d isn't fair. Yet this same man would punch you in the head for saying boo to him the wrong way.

Either way he wasn't made for this fantasy of vanity.

Fovezer you said this;

I don't worship anything. When I have time to myself, I just like to think.

In response to me asking , Where does your mind go when you have a minute?

So do you spend the majority of time you have thinking over whether there is a G-d or not? This would show that your thoughts on the subject have led you to no conclussion. Therefore your mind has deceived you. Either you have arrived at a conclussion or not? If your here with a preordained conclussion from yourself?Then you are being disingenouis. If however you are here because your much time and deep thoughts have not given you a conclussion? Then you must be following some ingrained preprogrammed need to know?

So which is it?

What do you think about in your time to yourself?

Peace,

Dave

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

PSALM 14:1," the fool hath said in his heart,there is no GOD..."

[endure4salvation]

Fozever,

All the proof that one needs to show that God does exist is to ask someone who has personally encountered Him--I volunteer!!!

Please read my testimony at the following link:

http://www.xanga.com/endure4salvation

The changes in my life cannot be explained by me trying to search for God--I only wanted to murder myself from many years of clinical depression and was attempting to and Jesus Christ revealed Himself to me and took it all away.

I used to be involved with many bad things and now my life has forever changed.

I experience God and you can too--if you are willing to search with your heart that is!

[Fovezer]

I can understand how it might have read that way.  I'll be honest.  I'm not convinced that you are open to a beleif in God, but if you say you are, I will hold you to be open.  Fair enough?

Sounds fair to me. But can we drop the whole "Am I open?" thig and get on with it.

I said I just mentioned proof.  No, I didn't give you proof.  I wanted to see if you were wanting to see it.  I wanted to see how open you were.

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't see the "mentioned" part.

Well, the universe didn't come into being through evolution.  If it wasn't chance, then how did it happen?

Reread what I wrote. I said that chance wasn't the best word when referring to evolution. The universe could be entirely by chance, I just don't know. Same for abiogenesis. It could have happened by chance, too.

500 peices of archaeological evidence proving certain stories in the Bible historically accurate with or without the existance of a God as mentioned in the Bible.  Does that count for ANYTHING?

So the only reason you said there was no proof of a God, ESPECIALLY a Christian God, was because you happened to be on a Christian message board???

Yes, that proves the Bible is a historical document, not that it is God's Word, or that he exists. Yes, that was the only reason. I shouldn't have used "especially". I should have said, "no proof of a god, EVEN the Christian god." Sorry for the miscommunication.

I was very careful not to say 'you'.  I said 'your friends.'  And you enjoy debating?  What a surprise? 

Oh, alright. Hey, you seem to enjoy debating a little, or you wouldn't be here, would you?

But these athiests are among worshippers.  Most of them, like you, had in fact, been a worshipper to begin with.  I mean, have they ever found athiests in any remote place?  No, everywhere you go, whenever they find a new group of humans, they are worshipping something.

Besides, I feel that athiests are worshippers of their own intellect.  And they worship their own intellect by fulfilling their need to fight God - writing books, debating - proving to themselves and each other how smart they are.  (Not you specifically, of course)

Yes, they are usually worshipping something, but it is not the same thing. Some are polytheists, others monotheists, and it's all different. I just don't see what this proves.

Yes, some atheists are like that. So are some Christians. But atheist aren't fighting God, they are debating the idea of him.

We are entirely different than animals.  Anyone can see that.

I can't.

ANd you didn't answer my question.  You said that animals aren't spiritual because they don't have the need.  Ever seen cows in a slaughterhouse praying for their lives?  No, they don't.  Remember, we humans are the smart ones.  We know there is a higher power.  Every person on every remote place on earth knows that much. 

And dolphins are the closest in intelligence to humans, but still billions of miles apart.  We aren't soon going to be asking them to help us with a cure for cancer, even if we could communicate with them.

The differences are too huge.  You've got to be able to see that.

Yes, we are far more intellectual than other animals, but we are also VERY VERY ill-equipped to survive without intellect. We have no fur, can only live in a certain tempuature range, can't kill food without tools, so we evolved a more powerful brain, to compensate and allow use to design and use tools.

Yes, there are big diffences, but it doesn't mean we are not animals.

[Fovezer]

my friend,  FOREZER, ACTUALLY THE  PROOF  OF THEEXISTANCE OF GOD IS NOT ON US........ WE HAVE NOTHING TO PROVE..... WE ALL  KNOW THAT THERE IS A GOD...

  THE PROOF IS UP TO YOU  TO PROVE THAT THERE ISNO GOD...... THAT SIMPLE........

  YOU  PROVE US WRONG..

  BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN LAWS IN THE  UNIVERSE THAT NEVER CHANGE. ...

 

    LIKE THE  LAW OF GRAVITY.....

WITHOUT  A LAW MAKER THERE IS NO LAW ......

    MAY THE LORD  SHOW U  THE TRUTH OF HIS LOVE.

Yes, it is. People have already stated you can't prove a negative. Those whose assert the posivite also have to carry the burdon of proof.

Oh, and gravity is a theory, not a law. Nice try at a strawman, anyways.

[artsylady]

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't see the "mentioned" part

That's funny. You still didn't ask for it.

Reread what I wrote. I said that chance wasn't the best word when referring to evolution. The universe could be entirely by chance, I just don't know.

Well what is the best word?

Same for abiogenesis. It could have happened by chance, too.

QUOTE

Not likely, when we can't, when manipulating all conditions, create life.

Yes, that proves the Bible is a historical document, not that it is God's Word, or that he exists.

Would you venture to say that Moses might have lived? Joshua? King David?

Yes, that was the only reason. I shouldn't have used "especially". I should have said, "no proof of a god, EVEN the Christian god." Sorry for the miscommunication.

Are you certain it's not that you have a particular grudge against the Christian church?

Oh, alright. Hey, you seem to enjoy debating a little, or you wouldn't be here, would you? 

QUOTE

I thought you were here because you were open and wanting to dispel myths about athiesm. (even though no one was talking about athiesm)

Yes, they are usually worshipping something, but it is not the same thing. Some are polytheists, others monotheists, and it's all different. I just don't see what this proves.

That we humans are SPIRITUAL creatures.

Yes, some atheists are like that. So are some Christians. But atheist aren't fighting God, they are debating the idea of him.

I disagree completely. I believe they are fighting God and I'm sure they or you will not see it that way, so on this one, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I said:

QUOTE 

We are entirely different than animals.  Anyone can see that.

You replied

I can't.

That's because you're an athiest. You're not OPEN minded enough to see the obvious fact that there are huge differences between animals and humans.

Have a banana monkey boy!!

Yes, we are far more intellectual than other animals, but we are also VERY VERY ill-equipped to survive without intellect. We have no fur, can only live in a certain tempuature range, can't kill food without tools, so we evolved a more powerful brain, to compensate and allow use to design and use tools.

Gee, maybe God gave us intellect, so that we could not only survive, but rule over the earth. Ya think?