Non believers hear me out

September 21, 2006

If anyone REALLY thinks about the bible it's fairly easy to see that it's not true (to me anyways). For one thing the bible describes god as being "all seeing" or "all Knowing." If that were true he would know whether we were going to sin and end up going to hell(sorry couldnt think of a better way to put it) or whether we were going to worship him through our lives. And yet it also states that we have free will. It dosnt make any sense. It pretty much says you have free will but god already knows everything your going to do so its not really free will is it? Another thing I have a problem with is how come god made such frequent appearances to people on earth when the bible was written but now their are none. And their is tons of sufficient evidence that man evolved slowly just like every other animal on this planet and wasnt just created out of the blue. As well if the earth was created in 7 days when did the dinosaurs rule the earth? Their were no people then. And yet the bible says that man was created at almost the exact same time the earth was created. I also dont agree with the bibles statements that man rules over animals and can use them for whatever they want and the statemnet that men are "higher up" than women. Non of it has ever sat well with me since I was old enough to know what it all means. And you said that the feeling you get when you "connect" with god is amazing. That sounds exactly how I felt and still feel when I converted to paganism. Anyways I could go on all day about how the bible cant possibly be true but i'll stop here. I believe fully in my faith and have had a much better life since I converted away from Christianity. I'm not trying to attack anyones faith here I'm just stating my view of things and my reasons for what I believe in.

September 21, 2006

Hey all, I don

September 21, 2006

yes, unfortunately much harm has been done in the name of religion - but that really just proves that we are sinful, not that religions are evil. I recently read a book saying that we are all just the imperfect cups holding the perfect water. I love CS Lewis's writings. He explains very well that though God gave us this moral law, we are more apt to abuse it than to follow it. His example is that of a drownng man. We know in our hearts that the right thing to do is to try to save the person, yet we also want to preserve our own life. The moral law isn't like other laws such as gravity, but a sense within us to do what is right. If one watches the evening news it seems like NO one follows this moral law. This is the distorted view we get from sensationalism. No one deep down wants to harm other people, it is people that are harmed that harm others. I like to think of it as "Hurt people, hurt people". The real amazing thing is what some people will do for their fellow man. One can say that 911 was an example of religion causing harm, and yet there were many people that died trying to save others with hardly a thought. Call it a hero complex or whatever, I feel God was there, and suffered along with us. I know it was a lot easier to deal with that day with God in my life, than to just think that evil always wins. I imagine many non-believers will say, "inventing a shoulder to lean on". I don't think there really is a comeback to that because I imagine it leaves them feeling hollow, while I am comforted. CS Lewis says that for every longing we have, there is something that fulfills that longing. I hated God for many years because I experienced an awful childhood. Luckily I found a way to heal that, and that was when God entered my life. I had every reason to want a loving parent figure but couldn't let Him in until I learned to value myself. I longed for years and years for some person to make me feel whole. When I found people like me who had also suffered, we shared each others burden, and lifted each other up to places we never imagined possible. One day I could not call it a chance event. Hurt people coming together to help each other - now that was God working.

peace

dave

September 21, 2006

Hey Dave I am Glad that your faith brings you the comfort you need in life. As i mentioned i think Faith can only have a possitive effect in your life, if what you believe in is truly good, i think some lose there way and there faith turns into something that results in others being hurt.

I think people with faith find stength from a higher source. That being said the human body, mind and even soul is very comlpex this type of possitivity or the shoulder to lean on as you mentioned can be a very powerful thing, many like yourself will believe this to be Gods influence, while other believe it to be only themselves and there own possitive attitude or character to do whats needed in a time of disaster, pain, or emotional distress.

Myself i don't know, at times i find myself talking to God asking for some sort of guidence even sometimes in a jovial manner.

I once watched a program on TV where a christian pastor said "If you don't know Jesus or believe in him, that you more or less where going to go to hell" its this kind of attitude that really puts me off! Anything i read or listen to from another man i will always question, i am a man too just because you listen to a pastor or preist or minister, they may have the best intentions in mind but there interpretations of they way things are, are there own beleifs and even if shared by millions does not make them any more credible than my own.

I think man has the potiential to be good, but i feel will always be corrupt as man buckles to easy to temptation!!

I think anyone given the right oppertunity can do the wrong thing!! And although i hate to say that i think it to be true.

I am not all doom and gloom though just letting some of my thought spill out here.

Cheers,

James

September 21, 2006

I agree whole heartedly. I feel the best way to worship God is to be humble. I don't think the best way is to be perfect - because we just cant be. I used to think of Jesus as just a great moral teacher, but when you consider what he was saying, what he was doing, who he would socialize and pray with, it is nearly impossible to consider him human. I took a 9 month bible study class because I didn't really know a lot about it. Sure I knew about Jesus and some old testament stories but not the whole encompasing beauty of it. Anyways let me share with you the most important idea I got from that class. God gave Jews 10 commandments. They created a gigantic book of how to be absolved of different sins. They even came up with a way for those who couldnt afford the correct sacrifice. Jesus came to be the perfect sacrifice. To tell everyone not to be so focused on the law, and instead focus on loving one another. I too used to just see mankinds sins, but that is not all that is out there. God is much bigger than sin. 911 is a great example of how something awful can have good in it. I used to be a great pessamist, though I considered myself a realist. THen someone told me to start a gratitude journal - writing 5 simple things each day that I was thankful for. I had spent a lifetime of looking at things expecting the worst, it was no wonder I was always miserable.

5 things I am thankful for today

1) watching my kids ride bikes

2) a good hamburger

3) appreciating how much easier life is with God in my life

4) light traffic coming home today

5) Ryder cup starts tomorrow

peace

dave

secondeve · September 21, 2006

I disagree. Once you start thinking that the Fall was part of God's plan, punishing man with Sin for something God had wanted to happen seems rather like smacking a child over the head when it does what you've taught it to do. Which, to me, doesn't square with the idea of a compassionate, loving God.

cjrose · September 22, 2006

((((((((((eve))))))))))))) you're the bomb!! But you can't see our loving compassionate God as we do cuz you aren't looking at Him as we do. He is a compassionate loving God who disciplines His children just as any parent would do.

Still adore you, girlfrien'

secondeve · September 22, 2006

((((((((((eve))))))))))))) you're the bomb!! But you can't see our loving compassionate God as we do cuz you aren't looking at Him as we do. He is a compassionate loving God who disciplines His children just as any parent would do.

Still adore you, girlfrien'

Hey, cj! Nice to hear from you

Well, I know why you're saying what you're saying, but my view remains the same: in order to see God as you do - as loving and compassionate - I would essentially have to put faith, not in something reasonable that my experience or reason might back up, but in the idea that even though God's promises, ideals and history with regard to man seem to be full of contracdictions, flaws and unkindness, the practical effect is really the opposite. Which, as I can't see evidence of that either, makes no sense to me at all.

cjrose · September 22, 2006

He loves us so much, He sacraficed His Son.

And yet, He made the rules. According to the Bible, He placed us here, where He knew Satan "goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour". He is omniscient, yet he put us in the way of temptation anyway. A simpleton could figure that eventually man would choose sin, even if not soon - it exists as one of two possibilities. Yet, He put us in a world where sin was always a potential choice. And everyone for all time would have to suffer when one human eventually made the choice for sin. So Jesus would have to be tortured and killed, so we could get out debt cancelled.

That's at least some of the trouble I have.

He placed us here and gave Adam and Eve only one rule, do not eat of the Tree of Knowledge. He knew satan would tempt them but to blame God for putting us in the way of temptation is not the point. We put ourselves in the way of temptation as it is all around us in this world. It is a world of sin because Adam and Eve broke their fellowship and disobeyed, of course there are consequences. It is up to us to choose to concsiously choose sin or to walk away. But in any case, we are human beings and therefore have a sinful nature. But God provided a way out by accepting His Son as our Savior and by repentence of our sins for which He forgives and cleanses. The only sinless one who came in the flesh is Jesus. Who is God, the Son, God, the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the price Jesus paid was great. Does that not say Love to you? He was also ressurected as was foretold in a glorious body and showed Himself with not a mark on Him. Our suffering is what teaches us about life, I speak for myself. It is my suffering that keeps me humble and grateful. It is my suffering that led me to seek some peace, that peace came in the form of our Lord Jesus as I knocked, He revealed Himself to me.

billie · September 22, 2006

He loves us so much, He sacraficed His Son.

And yet, He made the rules. According to the Bible, He placed us here, where He knew Satan "goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour". He is omniscient, yet he put us in the way of temptation anyway. A simpleton could figure that eventually man would choose sin, even if not soon - it exists as one of two possibilities. Yet, He put us in a world where sin was always a potential choice. And everyone for all time would have to suffer when one human eventually made the choice for sin. So Jesus would have to be tortured and killed, so we could get out debt cancelled.

That's at least some of the trouble I have.

Adam's fall was part of God's plan. Once that is understood, the whole concept of the Fall makes complete sense.

Yes, and Jesus' suffering and death, it was all planned. Why? Because He wants us to choose Him. Love means nothing without choice. He put us here with Satan to give us a choice. He says in His Word, "Choose life, that you may live." He wants us to choose Him, but He won't make us choose Him. He won't take away our choice while we're alive to make one.