Little child

[Kansasdad]

This is a verse that came up in a Bible prayer group I attend. We didn't get into all of what was being said in the verse, We did talk about humility and pride, but then Jesus takes his statement about Humility and adds some very stern warnings. I am not trying to take it anywhere particular it will go where ever it leads. There is much said in these few verses. I have just pointed out 3 different topics within these few lines that I felt were worthy of further thought and time.

1. What does Jesus mean when he says you need to be as a little child, and who was he talking about?

2. Here is a reference to a personal messenger (Angle) in heaven. I find this very interesting to think about having a messenger in heaven. What is the purpose of the messenger?

3. Why would Jesus give such extremely strong warnings about sin and leading his Children to sin if it were not something very important to understand fully. If his children are eternally secure then what difference would it make if they are led to sin. If the person leading the "child" astray is not saved, what difference would it make, He was going to hell anyway. Conversely, if the person leading the "child" to sin was saved then Jesus is clearly saying they will burn in eternal fire. Either way it begs the question, What did Jesus just say. Repeat that slowly I didn't get it all the first time.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Kabowd]

This is a verse that came up in a Bible prayer group I attend. We didn't get into all of what was being said in the verse, We did talk about humility and pride, but then Jesus takes his statement about Humility and adds some very stern warnings. I am not trying to take it anywhere particular it will go where ever it leads. There is much said in these few verses. I have just pointed out 3 different topics within these few lines that I felt were worthy of further thought and time.

1. What does Jesus mean when he says you need to be as a little child, and who was he talking about?

2. Here is a reference to a personal messenger (Angle) in heaven. I find this very interesting to think about having a messenger in heaven. What is the purpose of the messenger?

3. Why would Jesus give such extremely strong warnings about sin and leading his Children to sin if it were not something very important to understand fully. If his children are eternally secure then what difference would it make if they are led to sin. If the person leading the "child" astray is not saved, what difference would it make, He was going to hell anyway. Conversely, if the person leading the "child" to sin was saved then Jesus is clearly saying they will burn in eternal fire. Either way it begs the question, What did Jesus just say. Repeat that slowly I didn't get it all the first time.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

I don't have time for a thorough reply right now, but this caught my attention. Are you seriously asking what is the harm of sin if you're saved already? First and foremost, salvation is not about a ticket to heaven. Salvation is about the redeeming grace of God being applied to our lives through the subsitutionary death of His holy Son. It's about God taking our lives and molding them to be more holy and close knit with Himself. Sin separates us from God, it breaks our fellowship with Him and it breaks His heart. Sin caused the death of God's Son, it's a VERY serious matter that should not be taken lightly or flippantly. If you're suggesting that those who believe in eternal security have such a flippant attitude towards sin, then you are presenting a strawman argument that is false. God desires for sin to be removed from our lives because it causes us harm and harms our relationship with Him.

Getting to heaven is not our goal or purpose and should not be our focus. It isn't even our reward. Once you shift your paradigm from thinking of heaven as the goal, I think you'll begin to understand why sin is still an important issue in the lives of believers.

[Kansasdad]

I don't have time for a thorough reply right now, but this caught my attention. Are you seriously asking what is the harm of sin if you're saved already? First and foremost, salvation is not about a ticket to heaven. Salvation is about the redeeming grace of God being applied to our lives through the subsitutionary death of His holy Son. It's about God taking our lives and molding them to be more holy and close knit with Himself. Sin separates us from God, it breaks our fellowship with Him and it breaks His heart. Sin caused the death of God's Son, it's a VERY serious matter that should not be taken lightly or flippantly. If you're suggesting that those who believe in eternal security have such a flippant attitude towards sin, then you are presenting a strawman argument that is false. God desires for sin to be removed from our lives because it causes us harm and harms our relationship with Him.

Getting to heaven is not our goal or purpose and should not be our focus. It isn't even our reward. Once you shift your paradigm from thinking of heaven as the goal, I think you'll begin to understand why sin is still an important issue in the lives of believers.

First, I am trying not to throw any theology in here, just asking questions. So am I seriously asking what is the harm of sin if you are saved, In a manor of speaking,......yes.

You state that sin separates us from God. How? If we are going to heaven, how can this separate us from God? The facts we do know, is that Jesus states very clearly that one of his children can be led into sin. And that the person doing the leading is in a world of hurt. Why is this such a grievous thing to lead a person of child like faith into sin, if the person doing the leading is not saved in the first place. If they are unsaved are they not going to burn in eternal fire anyway. Whether they lead some one into sin would make no difference.

Please keep in mind that I am not stating that you or anyone else has a flippant attitude towards sin, so you can burn all the strawmen you want and we can roast marshmellows. (that was an attempt at humor)

Here are the verses we are discussing.

18:1At this time the disciples came to Jesus and said, 'Who is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven?' 2So he called a little child to him whom he set among them. 3Then he said, 'In truth I tell you, unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven. 4And so, the one who makes himself as little as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven.

On leading others astray

5'Anyone who welcomes one little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But anyone who is the downfall of one of these little ones who have faith in me would be better drowned in the depths of the sea with a great millstone round his neck. 7Alas for the world that there should be such causes of falling! Causes of falling indeed there must be, but alas for anyone who provides them! 8'If your hand or your foot should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away: it is better for you to enter into life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into the hell of fire. 10'See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their 11 angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven. *[some authorities add v. 11, 'For the Son of man has

Take careful note that Jesus first refers to the downfall of one of these little ones, then he makes it more personal, and talks about a persons personal downfall. Then he makes it quite clear what the consequenses of those downfalls are.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[apothanein kerdos]

You might want to do a good study of relationship vs. fellowship.

Sin seperates us from the fellowship of God but not the relationship. That is what sin does prior to salvation and post-salvation...no sin is strong enough to prevent us from a relationship.

Furthermore, when saved we are engaged in the act of sanctification, where God brings us to a perfected faith that is manifest in good works (i.e. not sinning). When we sin it shows we are rebelling against this sanctification (though God will inevitably bring us back) and thus not bringing glory to God. We bring shame to God and dishonor to Him when we sin...that is the consequence, that is the harm.

[Kabowd]

First, I am trying not to throw any theology in here, just asking questions. So am I seriously asking what is the harm of sin if you are saved, In a manor of speaking,......yes.

As AK pointed out, our purpose is to bring glory to God. Sin causes us to fall short of this and bring shame on Him instead. That should be enough of a reason to see why we should disdain sin and try to avoid it.

[Kansasdad]

You might want to do a good study of relationship vs. fellowship.

Sin seperates us from the fellowship of God but not the relationship. That is what sin does prior to salvation and post-salvation...no sin is strong enough to prevent us from a relationship.

Furthermore, when saved we are engaged in the act of sanctification, where God brings us to a perfected faith that is manifest in good works (i.e. not sinning). When we sin it shows we are rebelling against this sanctification (though God will inevitably bring us back) and thus not bringing glory to God. We bring shame to God and dishonor to Him when we sin...that is the consequence, that is the harm.

IN the words of Jesus Christ,

Causes of falling indeed there must be, but alas for anyone who provides them! 8'If your hand or your foot should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away: it is better for you to enter into life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into the hell of fire.

The consequences of sin are much greater than just bringing dishonor to God.

Again Jesus uses the concept of downfall for both causing his children to downfall and for personal downfall. It is the same reference.

[apothanein kerdos]

You might want to do a good study of relationship vs. fellowship.

Sin seperates us from the fellowship of God but not the relationship. That is what sin does prior to salvation and post-salvation...no sin is strong enough to prevent us from a relationship.

Furthermore, when saved we are engaged in the act of sanctification, where God brings us to a perfected faith that is manifest in good works (i.e. not sinning). When we sin it shows we are rebelling against this sanctification (though God will inevitably bring us back) and thus not bringing glory to God. We bring shame to God and dishonor to Him when we sin...that is the consequence, that is the harm.

IN the words of Jesus Christ,

Causes of falling indeed there must be, but alas for anyone who provides them! 8'If your hand or your foot should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away: it is better for you to enter into life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into the hell of fire.

The consequences of sin are much greater than just bringing dishonor to God.

Again Jesus uses the concept of downfall for both causing his children to downfall and for personal downfall. It is the same reference.

Why are those the consequenes though? What was violated in comitting these sins? Think deeper on it and let it progress to a first cause.

Likewise, that passage is speaking of rendering things up in order to follow God. It is not speaking of actual sin but instead of letting go of our sin to accept Christ. This is not the condemnation for all sin (after all, for those in Christ there is no condemnation), and therefore we must interpret this passage in light of the other scriptures.

[Kansasdad]

You might want to do a good study of relationship vs. fellowship.

Sin seperates us from the fellowship of God but not the relationship. That is what sin does prior to salvation and post-salvation...no sin is strong enough to prevent us from a relationship.

Furthermore, when saved we are engaged in the act of sanctification, where God brings us to a perfected faith that is manifest in good works (i.e. not sinning). When we sin it shows we are rebelling against this sanctification (though God will inevitably bring us back) and thus not bringing glory to God. We bring shame to God and dishonor to Him when we sin...that is the consequence, that is the harm.

IN the words of Jesus Christ,

Causes of falling indeed there must be, but alas for anyone who provides them! 8'If your hand or your foot should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away: it is better for you to enter into life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into the hell of fire.

The consequences of sin are much greater than just bringing dishonor to God.

Again Jesus uses the concept of downfall for both causing his children to downfall and for personal downfall. It is the same reference.

Why are those the consequenes though? What was violated in comitting these sins? Think deeper on it and let it progress to a first cause.

Likewise, that passage is speaking of rendering things up in order to follow God. It is not speaking of actual sin but instead of letting go of our sin to accept Christ. This is not the condemnation for all sin (after all, for those in Christ there is no condemnation), and therefore we must interpret this passage in light of the other scriptures.

The problem is that you are trying to make the scriptures fit your theology instead of letting scripture guide your theology. Actually Kabowd was exactly correct, sin does separate us from God. After all, (for those in Christ there is no condemnation.)

I understand your repeating of your theology but it has failed to answer my 3rd point. If the person leading the "child" astray is not saved, what difference would it make, He was going to hell anyway. Conversely, if the person leading the "child" to sin was saved then Jesus is clearly saying they will burn in eternal fire. Either way it begs the question, What did Jesus just say. Repeat that slowly I didn't get it all the first

Why would there be eternal consequences for leading someone into earthly troubles. It doesn't make sense. The reason Jesus is so stern on his warning is that there are eternal consequences if you lead one to separate themselves from God eternally. Your theology is blinding you, the message is very clear.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[apothanein kerdos]

ANd now we see your true intention, which was not to ask questions but instead bust out your "works to salvation" theology.

[Kansasdad]

ANd now we see your true intention, which was not to ask questions but instead bust out your "works to salvation" theology.

No, that is a label you like to throw around when you can no longer support your theology. I said I didn't want to take this in any particular direction, it is you and kerdos who took it this direction, I was only responding. I am just as happy to talk about what a messenger in heaven does for us, but your theology might get in the way there as well.

Please stop throwing around labels, it is a poor tactic. I am not busting out theology. These are the words of Jesus Christ not Kansas Dad.

I have never pretended to know all the answers but I sure enough know when someone is not answering them.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad