"Israel" is not just land

[Guest shiloh357]

I am saying that adoption does not make you Jewish, spiritually or otherwise. We may both be sons of God, but only one of us is Jewish.

So glad that is only an opinion.

No, it is fact.

[Floatingaxe]

I am saying that adoption does not make you Jewish, spiritually or otherwise. We may both be sons of God, but only one of us is Jewish.

So glad that is only an opinion.

No, it is fact.

I love you in Jesus anyway! Goodnight, Shiloh!

[Guest shiloh357]

I am saying that adoption does not make you Jewish, spiritually or otherwise. We may both be sons of God, but only one of us is Jewish.

So glad that is only an opinion.

No, it is fact.

I love you in Jesus anyway! Goodnight, Shiloh!

Have a nice night

[Openly Curious]

Hello Shiloh357

Galatians 6:14-16

in vs 16 it says, and upon the "Israel of God" which is speaking to a child of God whether a believing Jew or Gentile. and this happens to be one of my favorite verses of scriptures.

Actually that is debatable. Theologians are divided on what Paul means by the "Israel of God." Often, the church is penciled into that phrase. It is an assumption that many have made, but I believe it to be an incorrect assumption. The reason being is that it says,"And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." "and upon the Israel of God has the Greek word "kai" for "and." Some see this as an explicative word and others as a connective. I see it as connective. The explicative would read something like " peace and mercy be upon them who are the Israel of God." I see the kai as a connective, which makes more sense in the context.

I see two groups of people being mentioned in this verse, namely "those who walk according to this rule", and "the Israel of God. It is not at all unlike the Jewish expression, "May make peace for us and for all Israel" in the Kaddish.

However, what I see taking place fits more with the context as I said earlier because Paul wrote the book of Galatians to deal with the heresy being taught to the Galatians by the Judaizing cult. The Judaizers were teaching that circumcision and membership in Israel was an additional requirement for salvation. So to use the term "Israel of God" in this verse, in the context of the error he was addressing was slur against the Judaizers. The irony was that they were trying to teach people how to become a part of Israel, and according to Paul they were nothing but false teachers and by virtue of this were not part of Israel, themselves. Paul has no reservations concerning his dislike for the Judaizers and their teachings. As far He is concerned, they were not true Israelites, and not a part of the Israel of God.

Galatians 4:4-7--we have become the sons of God by adoption and have become legal heirs to the promises.

John 1:11-14--he went to his own and his own recieved him not.

Ephesians 1:3-5 esp vs 5 read on to verse 14 for it tells about all of our spiritual blessings in Christ through adoption.

Romans 8:14-17--by the Spirit of adoption once again we have become a legal heir to all the promises in God that was for the natural Jews we can lay claim to them and say yes and amen because God the Father made provisions for us through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. We are no longer strangers and pilgrims but fellow citizens of the household of God just as a Jewish person is when they get born again.

You need to understand that God separates between the promises to natural Israel and the promises given to believers in Christ. These are non-transferrable. God gives natural promises to Israel, and spiritual promises to the Church. The Church is made up of New Creations. What the Church has in Christ far surpasses what God promised the natural nation of Israel.

The adoption is spiritual, and the blessings you have by virtue of adoption are likewise spiritual. You are a member of a spiritual family. Israel and the Church are always treated as separate entities in the New Testament. God does not love one more than the other, but they are distinct one from another.

If God did not take us Gentiles in by adoption then you believe that we as Gentiles are still orphans without a Father. But that is not true as it says in Ephesians one body one Lord one faith one hope one Spirit and one God the Father and He is Father of both believing Jews and Gentiles.

I use to be an orphan but no longer I'm a child of the King same as you and our Father own everything the cattle on a thousand hills and we are both heirs together as we are both the sons of God.

I never said that God did not take Gentiles in by adoption. I am saying that adoption does not make you Jewish, spiritually or otherwise. We may both be sons of God, but only one of us is Jewish.

I am just going to pray for you Shiloh that God will open up your eyes further to the truth instead of debating with you on this. As I have an extreme love for the Jewish people as their heritage has now become mine through Christ and there is a kindred spirit among us. I however do not being born again get my flesh changed over to Jewish skin for I am still an American in flesh and am part of this nation being naturally born here.

But if I was adopted by another family in another country I would legally have all rights of being part of the family whatever that would entail and I would also become legal heir should the parents die just as one of their own natural kids would though I am not a natural born child but legally through the law I am made a rightful heir through adoption just the same as the natural born are being no difference.

When we are taken in we are taken in or else you believe we as Gentiles are orphans.

oc

[rich101]

I did NOT post any of my personal opinions on this topic because I have not made up my mind yet.

I posted the topic because it is what I heard on the radio and wanted input.

NOW<

Can we stop the name calling so I can learn?

For those who sincerely want to learn, I would suggest listening to those who have studied this issue at length and who have a greater understanding of the heritage involved. Specifically speaking here, this would be shiloh and AK. Not only are they highly educated in this particular subject, they are also of Jewish descent. Both of them have stated that Replacement Theology is born out of anti-semitism. It would be wise to heed their instruction, rather than scolding them for "name-calling". Sometimes learning involves hearing things we may not want to hear.

By the way, Israel is spelled with the "a" before the "e" also. Just FYI.

Amen, So be it ,Hosana to the son of David

[Botz]

The trouble with many Christians attitudes about their perceived spiritual nationality is that they want to take and believe all the parts about the blessings that Israel would benefit from if they obeyed the L-rd, but ignore the curses, because those were just for the Jews for being disobedient. They also forget that G-d has never deserted the Jewish people, and throughout the ages has kept a nucleus of believing Jews.

Romans 11:1 I ask then, did God reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Yisra'eli, a descendant of Avraham, of the tribe of Binyamin.

Rom 11:2 God didn't reject his people, which he foreknew. Or don't you know what the Scripture says about Eliyahu? How he pleads with God against Yisra'el:

Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have broken down your altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."

Rom 11:4 But how does God answer him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Ba`al."

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The fact is that Gentiles (and it is only those Gentiles that believe in the Jewish Messiah), think that all the natural branches have been removed from the vine, and they have taken over and become the vine itself, when again the Scriptures say .....Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you.

The Gentile Believers were welcomed in amongst their Jewish believing brethren who had such a rich heritage of the history of G-ds interaction with man, and the prophecies, promises, writings and oral traditions, and the Gentiles were recognized to be different...not in Messiah, for all are equal, but in regard to the Torah and the traditions of the Fathers.

In fact a meeting was convened and it was decided that the Gentile Believers should only have 4 binding laws that they should follow...Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things:

Act 15:29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell."

In many ways we owe the Jewish people everything, because from them we have had the joy of reading their history revealed in Scripture, and seen how the L-rd interacts with mankind, and how the Scriptures which they have written, observed and preserved are a living testimony to G-ds love for His people the Jews, and His people the Church, and ultimately for the whole of mankind.

The Church today should have a very strong Jewish flavour to it, but things did not work out that way, and anti-Semitism reared its ugly head, and became, and unfortunately still is, endemic throughout the Church ( this so-called paragon of virtue that had taken over where the Jews had supposedly failed.)

[Botz]

The fact is that Gentiles (and it is only those Gentiles that believe in the Jewish Messiah), think that all the natural branches have been removed from the vine, and they have taken over and become the vine itself, when again the Scriptures say .....Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you.

No, we do not believe that the natural branches have been removed form the vine and we have taken over. None of us posting on here has said any such thing.

We believe that through Christ we have been adopted into the family of God. All who are in Christ are of one spirit, whether Jew or Gentile.

Well thats good then...for a while I thought some people were implying they were now the real Jews and that the only Israel that G-d recognizes is a spiritual one made up of Jews and Gentiles....let me go back and check out the original posting.....

Israel is all who believe in Jesus Christ.

There are Jews in the country of Israel that are not Israel.

So when God speaks of Israel in the Bible, He is speaking about all who believe.

We as gentiles were adopted into Israel which is all who believe.

It is like we can substitute the word "Israel" with the word "Christian".

All who curse Christians will be cursed for it.

He who blesses Christians will be blessed.

Actually you would then agree that the above quote is wrong? But wait you replied...

I agree with it 100% We are the children of Abraham also

In otherwords when Israel is mentioned in the Bible you actually believe it refers to this spiritual Israel.

Forgive me, but this sounds like the Church has now replaced Israel...the quote even says...

It is like we can substitute the word "Israel" with the word "Christian".

Sounds like another way of saying the branches have been broken off, and the Church is the new Israel!

[st. Worm]

Some questions for our Left Behind dispensational friends (although no one is my friend who throws anti-semite charges around like some of them do).

If you really believe God has some other plan of salvation for ethnic Jews:

What is the fate of Jews who have died without faith in Christ for the last 2000 years? Will they escape Hell even after denying Christ unto their death?

Which Jews will the separate plan of salvation apply to? Citizens of the current nation of Israel only? Jews who are 100% of Jewish ancestry only? Jews who have only some Jewish blood as the result of intermarriage? Jews who live in other countries and not Israel? How do these factors affect this second plan of salvation? Who is the true Jew to you? How are they to be distinguished?

Also calling people anti-semites is very easy to do when you can hide behind the internet. Further, do the moderators/administrators condone this type of name calling? Is this what worthy boards is really all about?

Bottom line: God has only one plan of salvation and that is through INDIVIDUAL faith in Christ. If the New Testament does not say that to you, then you are completely lost. If proclaiming that makes me an anti-semite then I definitely am.

sw

[Guest shiloh357]

But if I was adopted by another family in another country I would legally have all rights of being part of the family whatever that would entail and I would also become legal heir should the parents die just as one of their own natural kids would though I am not a natural born child but legally through the law I am made a rightful heir through adoption just the same as the natural born are being no difference.

This is not in question. I would say though, that you seem to be confusing the issue, here. The issue being raised by those who keep misusing the concept of adoption has nothing to do with the "rights" of adoption. Floatingaxe, in particular, is asserting that he/she is "Jewish" spiritually as a result of adoption. This has no theological substance, and is simply not an assertion that can be supported by any Scripture related to adoption.

My point was that civil adoption such as in the case of a Norwegian family adopting a Chinese infant does not change the fact that the infant is Chinese, and will be of Chinese descent for the rest of his/her life. Though the child might have all of the civil privileges that come through being adopted by a Norwegian family just as if they were the biological child of said Norwegian family, the child will remain Chinese by lineage. There will always be a visible, biological distinction made between this child and the rest of the family (assuming the other members are natural born Norwegians).

If the concept of adoption is to be used as analogous to the familial relationship of a Gentiles to Jews, then we must remain consistent with concept when applying it spiritually. Just as civil adoption does not change a physical DNA of natural child into the race of the adoptive family, likewise spiritual adoption does not make a spiritual Jew out of a Gentile. The Bible makes it clear that both Gentiles and Jews stand as equals at the foot of the cross. Both are just as sinful and both have to be saved the same way, and both are heirs to the same spiritual inheritance in Christ. Jews are still Jews, and Gentiles are still Gentiles. Adoption does not change that. Gentiles do not usurp natural Jews to become "the true Jew." The Bible simply makes no such assertion.

[Guest shiloh357]

Some questions for our Left Behind dispensational friends (although no one is my friend who throws anti-semite charges around like some of them do).

If you really believe God has some other plan of salvation for ethnic Jews:

You have already begun by poisoning the well. I would like for you to go back and cut and paste where anyone has asserted that there is a separate salvation plan for Jews. That assertion has never been made. This statement of yours demonstrates that you really don't have a grasp of the issue, as no one has proclaimed any other means of salvation outside of Christ for anyone.

The rest of your questions are based upon the faulty premise quoted above, and are thus a waste of time to answer. When you develop the integrity and intellecual honesty to correctly represent the position of your opponents, then perhaps intelligent dialogue with you might be possible. Until then, I will not waste time or bandwidth trying to reason with you.