Guest shiloh357 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 What is an adopted child in a family? He is a complete and functioning member, loved fully, and heir to all along with his "natural-born" siblings. To the parent, there is NO DIFFERENCE! Same thing with Almighty God. To Him, I and my brothers and sisters in Christ, Jew and Gentile, are one, all members and joint-heirs in the forever family of God! We are all His chosen people, the sons of Abraham! Amen! There is no difference in their standing, but the adopted Chinese child does not become "Norwegian." It simply does not happen in the natural world, and you cannnot force your misuse of the concept in the spiritual aspect either. Likewise if you were a Gentile, before you were saved, you are still a Gentile after you were saved. You are a Gentile adopted into a Jewish family. That is simply how it is. You may be a fully functioning member of the family but you are what you are. It would be nonsensical to use the the image of natural adoption as an anology, only to be unfaithful to the concept when applying it spiritually. If you are going to apply Paul's analogy, you need to be consistent with what adoption is, and not try to miscontrue the concept in order to make it conform to your already error-ridden theology. There is no error there. The Chinese child known as Wong is now a Horslund! No difference in the eyes of his father, and there is no difference in the eyes of my Father as well about whose I am! Of course I am physically Gentile, but I am spiritually a Jew and always will be. No you are not. The Bible makes no such assertion. You are forcing that "theology" on the Bible. You are a spiritual Gentile. Always will be. There is no shame in being a Gentile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2006 OC your post was good except for these parts: oc quote The church is called Israel because we are the people of God now who have been bought back by the blood of Christ so we are the people of God. Hello Shiloh357 Galatians 6:14-16 in vs 16 it says, and upon the "Israel of God" which is speaking to a child of God whether a believing Jew or Gentile. and this happens to be one of my favorite verses of scriptures. oc quote Now the Gentiles are adopted Jews whereby we cry Abba Father as God took us into the family of God through the blood of the cross that did away with sacrificial aspects of the law. Galatians 4:4-7--we have become the sons of God by adoption and have become legal heirs to the promises. John 1:11-14--he went to his own and his own recieved him not. Ephesians 1:3-5 esp vs 5 read on to verse 14 for it tells about all of our spiritual blessings in Christ through adoption. Romans 8:14-17--by the Spirit of adoption once again we have become a legal heir to all the promises in God that was for the natural Jews we can lay claim to them and say yes and amen because God the Father made provisions for us through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. We are no longer strangers and pilgrims but fellow citizens of the household of God just as a Jewish person is when they get born again. We become the Israel of God according to Galatian 6:16 If God did not take us Gentiles in by adoption then you believe that we as Gentiles are still orphans without a Father. But that is not true as it says in Ephesians one body one Lord one faith one hope one Spirit and one God the Father and He is Father of both believing Jews and Gentiles. I use to be an orphan but no longer I'm a child of the King same as you and our Father own everything the cattle on a thousand hills and we are both heirs together as we are both the sons of God. Shiloh357 The Bible nowhere calls Gentile Christians "Jews. Neither does it call the Church,"Israel." That is simply factually incorrect. oc Galatians 6:16 shiloh357 The rest of your post was excellent, though. The Church and Israel are two separate entities in the New Testament. The fact that God has a plan to restore the nation Israel and fulfill all of the promises He has made to them, demonstrates that the Church has not in anyway become "Israel." There are 71 references to Israel in the New Testament. It causes all kinds of interpretative problems if we try to redefine Israel as "The Church." Try reading Romans 11, and while doing that, replace every instance that word Israel appears with the word Church and see how much sense it makes. The Bible teaches that Jews and Gentiles are not at either a disadvantage or advantage where salvation is concerned. That does not make Gentiles "adopted" Jews any more than a Chinese child adopted into a Norwegian family suddenly makes the child Norwegian. It doesn't work that way in the natural, and it would make no sense in the spiritual aspect of it either. If you are a Gentile prior to salvation, then you are an adopted Gentile after salvation. There is no sin or shame in being a Gentile. oc thank you for your kind words blessings oc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 18, 2006 What is an adopted child in a family? He is a complete and functioning member, loved fully, and heir to all along with his "natural-born" siblings. To the parent, there is NO DIFFERENCE! Same thing with Almighty God. To Him, I and my brothers and sisters in Christ, Jew and Gentile, are one, all members and joint-heirs in the forever family of God! We are all His chosen people, the sons of Abraham! Amen! There is no difference in their standing, but the adopted Chinese child does not become "Norwegian." It simply does not happen in the natural world, and you cannnot force your misuse of the concept in the spiritual aspect either. Likewise if you were a Gentile, before you were saved, you are still a Gentile after you were saved. You are a Gentile adopted into a Jewish family. That is simply how it is. You may be a fully functioning member of the family but you are what you are. It would be nonsensical to use the the image of natural adoption as an anology, only to be unfaithful to the concept when applying it spiritually. If you are going to apply Paul's analogy, you need to be consistent with what adoption is, and not try to miscontrue the concept in order to make it conform to your already error-ridden theology. There is no error there. The Chinese child known as Wong is now a Horslund! No difference in the eyes of his father, and there is no difference in the eyes of my Father as well about whose I am! Of course I am physically Gentile, but I am spiritually a Jew and always will be. No you are not. The Bible makes no such assertion. You are forcing that "theology" on the Bible. You are a spiritual Gentile. Always will be. There is no shame in being a Gentile. All who are in Christ are one body, whether born jewish or born gentile. By saying that there is the church and then there is Israel and they are seperate is saying the family of God is two bodies. This is scripturally incorrect. 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. One more thing, It has been asserted that those of us who do not agree with Shiloh adhere to a replacement theory which is anti-semetic. Not one person on this thread has said that the church replaced Israel. We have said that we have been adopted into Israel. Amen to all of what you said there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avodah Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 812 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/01/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/15/1961 Share Posted September 18, 2006 There you go again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2006 What is an adopted child in a family? He is a complete and functioning member, loved fully, and heir to all along with his "natural-born" siblings. To the parent, there is NO DIFFERENCE! Same thing with Almighty God. To Him, I and my brothers and sisters in Christ, Jew and Gentile, are one, all members and joint-heirs in the forever family of God! We are all His chosen people, the sons of Abraham! Amen! There is no difference in their standing, but the adopted Chinese child does not become "Norwegian." It simply does not happen in the natural world, and you cannnot force your misuse of the concept in the spiritual aspect either. Likewise if you were a Gentile, before you were saved, you are still a Gentile after you were saved. You are a Gentile adopted into a Jewish family. That is simply how it is. You may be a fully functioning member of the family but you are what you are. It would be nonsensical to use the the image of natural adoption as an anology, only to be unfaithful to the concept when applying it spiritually. If you are going to apply Paul's analogy, you need to be consistent with what adoption is, and not try to miscontrue the concept in order to make it conform to your already error-ridden theology. There is no error there. The Chinese child known as Wong is now a Horslund! No difference in the eyes of his father, and there is no difference in the eyes of my Father as well about whose I am! Of course I am physically Gentile, but I am spiritually a Jew and always will be. No you are not. The Bible makes no such assertion. You are forcing that "theology" on the Bible. You are a spiritual Gentile. Always will be. There is no shame in being a Gentile. All who are in Christ are one body, whether born jewish or born gentile. By saying that there is the church and then there is Israel and they are seperate is saying the family of God is two bodies. This is scripturally incorrect. 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. One more thing, It has been asserted that those of us who do not agree with Shiloh adhere to a replacement theory which is anti-semetic. Not one person on this thread has said that the church replaced Israel. We have said that we have been adopted into Israel. yes KatyAnn and that baptism in found in Romans 6:1-14 and is summed up in Galatians 6:14-16 which is both Jews and Gentiles who are made new creatures through the blood of the cross. If any man be in Christ Jesus he is made a new creature old things are passed away and behold all things are made new. Christ in us the hope of glory. Being Jews and Gentiles believers. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 18, 2006 There you go again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avodah Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 812 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/01/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/15/1961 Share Posted September 18, 2006 There you go again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Hello Shiloh357 Galatians 6:14-16 in vs 16 it says, and upon the "Israel of God" which is speaking to a child of God whether a believing Jew or Gentile. and this happens to be one of my favorite verses of scriptures. Actually that is debatable. Theologians are divided on what Paul means by the "Israel of God." Often, the church is penciled into that phrase. It is an assumption that many have made, but I believe it to be an incorrect assumption. The reason being is that it says,"And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." "and upon the Israel of God has the Greek word "kai" for "and." Some see this as an explicative word and others as a connective. I see it as connective. The explicative would read something like " peace and mercy be upon them who are the Israel of God." I see the kai as a connective, which makes more sense in the context. I see two groups of people being mentioned in this verse, namely "those who walk according to this rule", and "the Israel of God. It is not at all unlike the Jewish expression, "May make peace for us and for all Israel" in the Kaddish. However, what I see taking place fits more with the context as I said earlier because Paul wrote the book of Galatians to deal with the heresy being taught to the Galatians by the Judaizing cult. The Judaizers were teaching that circumcision and membership in Israel was an additional requirement for salvation. So to use the term "Israel of God" in this verse, in the context of the error he was addressing was slur against the Judaizers. The irony was that they were trying to teach people how to become a part of Israel, and according to Paul they were nothing but false teachers and by virtue of this were not part of Israel, themselves. Paul has no reservations concerning his dislike for the Judaizers and their teachings. As far He is concerned, they were not true Israelites, and not a part of the Israel of God. Galatians 4:4-7--we have become the sons of God by adoption and have become legal heirs to the promises. John 1:11-14--he went to his own and his own recieved him not. Ephesians 1:3-5 esp vs 5 read on to verse 14 for it tells about all of our spiritual blessings in Christ through adoption. Romans 8:14-17--by the Spirit of adoption once again we have become a legal heir to all the promises in God that was for the natural Jews we can lay claim to them and say yes and amen because God the Father made provisions for us through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. We are no longer strangers and pilgrims but fellow citizens of the household of God just as a Jewish person is when they get born again. You need to understand that God separates between the promises to natural Israel and the promises given to believers in Christ. These are non-transferrable. God gives natural promises to Israel, and spiritual promises to the Church. The Church is made up of New Creations. What the Church has in Christ far surpasses what God promised the natural nation of Israel. The adoption is spiritual, and the blessings you have by virtue of adoption are likewise spiritual. You are a member of a spiritual family. Israel and the Church are always treated as separate entities in the New Testament. God does not love one more than the other, but they are distinct one from another. If God did not take us Gentiles in by adoption then you believe that we as Gentiles are still orphans without a Father. But that is not true as it says in Ephesians one body one Lord one faith one hope one Spirit and one God the Father and He is Father of both believing Jews and Gentiles. I use to be an orphan but no longer I'm a child of the King same as you and our Father own everything the cattle on a thousand hills and we are both heirs together as we are both the sons of God. I never said that God did not take Gentiles in by adoption. I am saying that adoption does not make you Jewish, spiritually or otherwise. We may both be sons of God, but only one of us is Jewish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I am saying that adoption does not make you Jewish, spiritually or otherwise. We may both be sons of God, but only one of us is Jewish. So glad that is only an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 All who are in Christ are one body, whether born jewish or born gentile. By saying that there is the church and then there is Israel and they are seperate is saying the family of God is two bodies. This is scripturally incorrect. No the problem is that you are framing our argument wrong. I have not made the assertion that natural Israel is another "body" of Christ. That is an assumption you have been trying to assign to me, and it is completely incorrect. To say that God has a prophetic end time plan for Israel is not equivalent to claiming that Israel is a separate, redeemed body. I have tried to explain that to you in the past. One more thing, It has been asserted that those of us who do not agree with Shiloh adhere to a replacement theory which is anti-semetic. Not one person on this thread has said that the church replaced Israel. We have said that we have been adopted into Israel. Actually the OP quoted a preacher, and the preacher was teaching Replacement Theology. That is not a reflection on Giaour in any way. But it is still a false teaching, and is still anti-Semitic. Israel is all who believe in Jesus Christ. There are Jews in the country of Israel that are not Israel. So when God speaks of Israel in the Bible, He is speaking about all who believe. We as gentiles were adopted into Israel which is all who believe. It is like we can substitute the word "Israel" with the word "Christian". All who curse Christians will be cursed for it. He who blesses Christians will be blessed. This represents the heart of Replacement Theology, and it has its roots in the early church fathers and their hatred of the Jews. It is exactly this kind of arrogance that Paul warned about in Romans 11, but the Church has failed to listen. He even takes a blessing that God pronounced upon the Jewish people three times in the OT, and applies to Christians, without any hermeneutical justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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