Where can I find early Christian history?

[Smalcald]

I would caution that there were heresies in some of these early writings. Particularly things like the Gnostic writings, things like gospels, which the early church rejected as not from God.

Ignatious of Antioch (in modern Turkey) was not a contemporary of the first Christians in Antioch, although he was living and writing in that same area a mere couple of hundred years later and is a church leader. The thing to watch are non-canonical writings, things which claim to be Gospels but which were rejected by the early believers who decided which texts would be in the bible and which did not measure up, these early believers were guided by the Holy Spirit in these decisions.

[pointer]

So now I see that they were first called Christians in antioch, at least that is what this claims.

It got that bit from the Bible.

Then it talks about someone from antioch? ignatius? sounds like something that comes out of a congested chest cold like phlem. lol

Much worse than that.

[pointer]

To the Ephesians

To the Magnesians

To the Trallians

To the Romans

To the Philadephians

To the Smyrnaeans

To Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna

wow, a disciple of peter and john, now THAT is interesting. I guess I will go and read the authentic letters he wrote and see what they say about him. This is exciting! I will be reading the letters of a disciple of peter and john! I hope this sheds some light on things.

You might ask why these letters were not included in Scripture.

[Guest godgivesall4us]

well, after doing a search on yahoo for the Ignatius of antioch. I found the authentic writings they spoke of and boy are they long! I hope i don't get in trouble for pasting the letter to the ephesians, it is quite deep, and I don't understand a lot of it at first glance, but I am going to do an in depth study of it. Heck, if this is the first person to call us Christians in history, not to mention his being a disciple of peter and john, then he must have something to offer concerning what was taught at the time in the Christian church. enjoy!

godgivesall4us

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH

CHAPTER I.--PRAISE OF THE EPHESIANS.

I have become acquainted with your name, much-beloved in God, which ye have acquired by the habit of righteousness, according to the faith and love in Jesus Christ our Saviour. Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves by the blood of God, ye have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you. For, on hearing that I came bound from Syria for the common name and hope, trusting through your prayers to be permitted to fight with beasts at Rome, that so by martyrdom I may indeed become the disciple of Him "who gave Himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God,"[ye hastened to see me]. I received, therefore, your whole multitude in the name of God, through Onesimus, a man of inexpressible love, and your bishop in the flesh, whom I pray you by Jesus Christ to love, and that you would all seek to be like him. And blessed be He who has granted unto you, being worthy, to obtain such an excellent bishop.

CHAPTER II.--CONGRATULATIONS AND ENTREATIES.

As to my fellow-servant Burrhus, your deacon in regard to God and blessed in all things, I beg that he may continue longer, both for your honour and that of your bishop. And Crocus also, worthy both of God and you, whom I have received as the manifestation of your love, hath in all things refreshed me, as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ shall also refresh him; together with Onesimus, and Burrhus, and Euplus, and Fronto, by means of whom, I have, as to love, beheld all of you. May I always have joy of you, if indeed I be worthy of it. It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience "ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing," and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified.

CHAPTER III.--EXHORTATIONS TO UNITY.

I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for the name [of Christ], I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you as fellow-disciples with me. For it was needful for me to have been stirred up by you in faith, exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that ye would all run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the[manifested] will of the Father; as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds[of the earth], are so by the will of Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER IV.--THE SAME CONTINUED.

Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung. And do ye, man by man, become a choir, that being harmonious in love, and taking up the song of God in unison, ye may with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ, so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that ye are indeed the members of His Son. It is profitable, therefore, that you should live in an unblameable unity, that thus ye may always enjoy communion with God.

CHAPTER V.--THE PRAISE OF UNITY.

For if I in this brief space of time, have enjoyed such fellowship with your bishop--I mean not of a mere human, but of a spiritual nature--how much more do I reckon you happy who are so joined to him as the Church is to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ is to the Father, that so all things may agree in unity! Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole Church ! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself. For it is written, "God resisteth the proud." Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God.

CHAPTER VI.--HAVE RESPECT TO THE BISHOP AS TO CHRIST HIMSELF.

Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself. And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God, that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any dwelling-place among you. Nor, indeed, do ye hearken to any one rather than to Jesus Christ speaking in truth.

CHAPTER VII.--BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS.

For some are in the habit of carrying about the name[of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.

CHAPTER VIII.--RENEWED PRAISE OF THE EPHESIANS.

Let not then any one deceive you, as indeed ye are not deceived, inasmuch as ye are wholly devoted to God. For since there is no strife raging among you which might distress you, ye are certainly living in accordance with God's will. I am far inferior to you, and require to be sanctified by your Church of Ephesus, so renowned throughout the world. They that are carnal cannot do those things which are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual the things which are carnal; even as faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. But even those things which ye do according to the flesh are spiritual; for ye do all things in Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER IX.--YE HAVE GIVEN NO HEED TO FALSE TEACHERS.

Nevertheless, I have heard of some who have passed on from this to you, having false doctrine, whom ye did not suffer to sow among you, but stopped your ears, that ye might not receive those things which were sown by them, as being stones of the temple of the Father, prepared for the building of God the Father, and drawn up on high by the instrument of Jesus Christ, which is the cross, making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope, while your faith was the means by which you ascended, and your love the way which led up to God. Ye, therefore, as well as all your fellow-travellers, are God-bearers, temple-bearers, Christ-bearers, bearers of holiness, adorned in all respects with the commandments of Jesus Christ, in whom also I exult that I have been thought worthy, by means of this Epistle, to converse and rejoice with you, because with respect to your Christian life ye love nothing but God only.

CHAPTER X.--EXHORTATIONS TO PRAYER, HUMILITY, ETC.

And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men. For there is in them hope of repentance that they may attain to God. See, then, that they be instructed by your works, if in no other way. Be ye meek in response to their wrath, humble in opposition to their boasting: to their blasphemies return your prayers; in contrast to their error, be ye stedfast in the faith; and for their cruelty, manifest your gentleness. While we take care not to imitate their conduct, let us be found their brethren in all true kindness; and let us seek to be followers of the Lord(who ever more unjustly treated, more destitute, more condemned?), that so no plant of the devil may be found in you, but ye may remain in all holiness and sobriety in Jesus Christ, both with respect to the flesh and spirit.

CHAPTER XI.--AN EXHORTATION TO FEAR GOD, ETC.

The last times are come upon us. Let us therefore be of a reverent spirit, and fear the long-suffering of God, that it tend not to our condemnation. For let us either stand in awe of the wrath to come, or show regard for the grace which is at present displayed--one of two things. Only[in one way or another] let us be found in Christ Jesus unto the true life. Apart from Him, let nothing attract you, for whom I bear about these bonds, these spiritual jewels, by which may I arise through your prayers, of which I entreat I may always be a partaker, that I may be found in the lot of the Christians of Ephesus, who have always been of the same mind with the apostles through the power of Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER XII.--PRAISE OF THE EPHESIANS.

I know both who I am, and to whom I write. I am a condemned man, ye have been the objects of mercy; I am subject to danger, ye are established in safety. Ye are the persons through whom those pass that are cut off for the sake of God. Ye are initiated into the mysteries of the Gospel with Paul, the holy, the martyred, the deservedly most happy, at whose feet may I be found, when I shall attain to God; who in all his Epistles makes mention of you in Christ Jesus.

CHAPTER XIII.--EXHORTATION TO MEET TOGETHER FREQUENTLY FOR THE WORSHIP OF GOD.

Take heed, then, often to come together to give thanks to God, and show forth His praise. For when ye assemble frequently in the same place, the powers of Satan are destroyed, and the destruction at which he aims is prevented by the unity of your faith. Nothing is more precious than peace, by which all war, both in heaven and earth, is brought to an end.

CHAPTER XIV.--EXHORTATIONS TO FAITH AND LOVE.

None of these things is hid from you, if ye perfectly possess that faith and love towards Christ Jesus which are the beginning and the end of life. For the beginning is faith, and the end is love. Now these two. being inseparably connected together, are of God, while all other things which are requisite for a holy life follow after them. No man [truly] making a profession of faith sinneth; nor does he that possesses love hate any one. The tree is made manifest by its fruit; so those that profess themselves to be Christians shall be recognised by their conduct. For there is not now a demand for mere profession, but that a man be found continuing in the power of faith to the end.

CHAPTER XV.--EXHORTATION TO CONFESS CHRIST BY SILENCE AS WELL AS SPEECH.

It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not to be one. It is good to teach, if he who speaks also acts. There is then one Teacher, who spake and it was done; while even those things which He did in silence are worthy of the Father. He who possesses the word of Jesus, is truly able to hear even His very silence, that he may be perfect, and may both act as he speaks, and be recognised by his silence. There is nothing which is hid from God, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples, and He may be in us as our God, which indeed He is, and will manifest Himself before our faces. Wherefore we justly love Him.

CHAPTER XVI.--THE FATE OF FALSE TEACHERS.

Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.

CHAPTER XVII.--BEWARE OF FALSE DOCTRINES.

For this end did the Lord suffer the ointment to be poured upon His head, that He might breathe immortality into His Church. Be not ye anointed with the bad odour of the doctrine of the prince of this world; let him not lead you away captive from the life which is set before you. And why are we not all prudent, since we have received the knowledge of God, which is Jesus Christ? Why do we foolishly perish, not recognising the gift which the Lord has of a truth sent to us?

CHAPTER XVIII.--THE GLORY OF THE CROSS.

Let my spirit be counted as nothing for the sake of the cross, which is a stumbling-block to those that do not believe, but to us salvation and life eternal. "Where is the wise man? where the disputer?" Where is the boasting of those who are styled prudent? For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.

CHAPTER XIX.--THREE CELEBRATED MYSTERIES.

Now the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also her offspring, and the death of the Lord; three mysteries of renown, which were wrought in silence by God. How, then, was He manifested to the world? A star shone forth in heaven above all the other stars, the light of Which was inexpressible, while its novelty struck men with astonishment. And all the rest of the stars, with the sun and moon, formed a chorus to this star, and its light was exceedingly great above them all. And there was agitation felt as to whence this new spectacle came, so unlike to everything else [in the heavens]. Hence every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom abolished, God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. And now that took a beginning which had been prepared by God. Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.

CHAPTER XX.--PROMISE OF ANOTHER LETTER.

If Jesus Christ shall graciously permit me through your prayers, and if it be His will, I shall, in a second little work which I will write to you, make further manifest to you [the nature of] the dispensation of which I have begun [to treat], with respect to the new man, Jesus Christ, in His faith and in His love, in His suffering and in His resurrection. Especially [will I do this if the Lord make known to me that ye come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David according to the flesh, being both the Son of man and the Son of God, so that ye obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER XXI.--CONCLUSION.

My soul be for yours and theirs whom, for the honour of God, ye have sent to Smyrna; whence also I write to you, giving thanks unto the Lord, and loving Polycarp even as I do you. Remember me, as Jesus Christ also remembered you. Pray ye for the Church which is in Syria, whence I am led bound to Rome, being the last of the faithful who are there, even as I have been thought worthy to be chosen to show forth the honour of God. Farewell in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ, our common hope.

[pointer]

well, after doing a search on yahoo for the Ignatius of antioch. I found the authentic writings they spoke of and boy are they long! I hope i don't get in trouble for pasting the letter to the ephesians, it is quite deep, and I don't understand a lot of it at first glance, but I am going to do an in depth study of it. Heck, if this is the first person to call us Christians in history, not to mention his being a disciple of peter and john, then he must have something to offer concerning what was taught at the time in the Christian church. enjoy!

godgivesall4us

You do work quickly. Well done.

[Smalcald]

So the Church of Christ died, from ad100 through John Tyndale!!

I'm so glad you agree. On the Last Day, I would tremble to be associated in any way with the vile crooks of those years who called themselves Christians.

Who under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, decided which books would make up the New Testament? I really think you should be careful in who you deem to excommunicate, not having read or known these men, I would be careful indeed in excommunicating those who actually knew the Apostles. On what basis do you condemn these men as crooks?

Your assumptions are simply absurd on their face; God would not leave us alone for the majority of history since the resurrection. In fact it is totally non-scriptural that the Holy Spirit, that Christ

[Guest godgivesall4us]

Now THIS is what I was talking about.

this paragraph.

The last times are come upon us. Let us therefore be of a reverent spirit, and fear the long-suffering of God, that it tend not to our condemnation. For let us either stand in awe of the wrath to come, or show regard for the grace which is at present displayed--one of two things. Only[in one way or another] let us be found in Christ Jesus unto the true life. Apart from Him, let nothing attract you, for whom I bear about these bonds, these spiritual jewels, by which may I arise through your prayers, of which I entreat I may always be a partaker, that I may be found in the lot of the Christians of Ephesus, who have always been of the same mind with the apostles through the power of Jesus Christ.

notice at the end, he speaks of being of the same mind with the apostles through the power of Jesus Christ?

wow.

reminds me of phil2:2

be of the same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing......

what are you guys argueing about? there is nothing to argue about. I am looking at an unbiased, totally open minded look into the history of the church and you guys are jumping all over each other. whew!

Edited September 21, 2006 by godgivesall4us

[redeemed098]

Be careful with what you read...If it isnt in scripture, God has a very good reason for it.....You might enjoy reading these "extra" books, but be assured that they are not scripture....For good reason...Jesus said himself that the way to know the voice of the true shepherd is to be grounded in the Truth. You dont need to study the lie to be sure....You need to be grounded in the truth so that when a lie rears its ugly head, you will be able to stand firm in "The Truth." I believe Jesus put this scripture in right order deliberately...

"My sheep will know my voice and the voice of the stranger he will NOT follow." The key is knowing HIS voice...So that the voice of the stranger will sound as foreign to you as someone trying to imitate your parents. A child in a room full of many parents will recognize the voice of his OWN parents because he KNOWS them.

Regards,

Ben.

[Guest godgivesall4us]

These aren't books are they? they seem to be writings from someone at the turn of the first century who was the first to call us christians, or at least quote the first person who did. i do not read these as I do scripture, i am only trying to confirm more of what was taught from scripture through historical writings.

I have read the Bible thre times, not including the hundreds if not thousands of studies I have done with others.

i fugure that i am like an agent of the fbi who doesn't study the counterfeit bills, but studies the original, authentic bills in order to spot a fraud immediately.

I have studied and studied scripture, and will be able to see what jives with it immediately.

Did Ignatius claim to be an apostle? i don't see where he did. I also don't see him claiming to be writing scripture.

I am just reading a historical writing from very early christian history.

I guess I would be more prone to trust someone more writing from the years 100 or 110 ad, than someones take on scripture 2000 years later, when the languages are not even spoken anymore, really.

[Smalcald]

Indeed we are arguing.

Pointer is upset that you might read some Catholic writings. Ignatious was a Catholic or would be considered one today. So the only way he can stop that is to claim that there are no writings, that indeed there was no Christians between the Apostles and John Tyndale.

If that makes sense to you stop reading.