Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Guest shiloh357]

No Shiloh, you are wrong. You keep inserting that I am assesing that "work out your salvation" means "work for". This is a very wrong assesment. We are already saved from damnation in hell the minute we are saved, but we can lose that salvation when I don't let go of or go back into the very sins that I was saved from.

And that is "working for" salvation. The problem is that in your theology, your salvation depends upon you, not Jesus, ultimately.

From your perspective, salvation is founded on performance based acceptance. You are trying to maintain your salvation by your works, which ultimately means that salvation rests upon your performance. You are trying to keep yourself worthy for salvation. You are trying to "deserve" salvation, and ultimately heaven. For you, eternal life is not really a free gift, but it is reward for service.

In the end, if we follow your theology to its logical conclusion, God does not get the credit for you making it into heaven, you do. It was you, saving yourself, and it was your own works-based holiness that got you into heaven, and so you can then be proud of yourself, and it simply does not work that way.

Furthermore, if we go by the Bible definition of a true Christian, they are not holding on to past sin, nor are they seeking to go back into it. That reveals another problem, namely that you really don't understand biblical Christianity very well. There are many go back into greiveous, sinful lifestyles but that proves that they were probably never really Christians to start with.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

(1 John 2:18-21)

Read the whole chapter, but I will give highlights:

2 Peter 2:14-15 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2 Peter 2:20-21 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

This is talking about those Christians who forsake Christianity to go back into the world to partake of their sins.

You know what cardcaptor?? You should take your own advice and read the whole chapter. If you had bothered to do that, you would have noted that the context here is talking about false teachers/false prophets, not Christians who were saved but lost their salvation. These passages are describing deceivers, not Christians.

"Escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ" does not mean that they were saved. Anyone can reform their behavior, and cut themselves off from the corruption but still have no true grace in their heart. One does not have to be a Christian to live the "Christian" lifestyle. Anyone can be "religious" for a season. Anyone can have knowledge of Jesus Christ. There is a knowledge of the doctrines that may cause sinners to give up their external sinfulness, without any transformation of the heart. It is possible to have a profession, but no inward conversion, no "new creation" experience. False teachers cannot hide forever behind their empty profession.

Verse 22 though, really torpedoes your interpretation. It says that a dog returns to its vomit. That proves these false prophets were never changed to begin with. The dog is still a dog. He is still what he was. If not, he would not have gone back and become entangled in the same mess as before. A dog cannot help but be a dog. A sinner cannot help but a be a sinner. A unconverted sinner will return to his sin like a dog returns to its vomit. These false teachers, are exposed for what they are, because they fall back into their old vices.

His end is worse than in the beginning. This is true. A sinner who reforms his ways, but returns to his old vices, becomes more sinful, and more abandoned than before.

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This is why we work out our salvation in fear and trembling because if I don't rid my life of my sins and their desires I can die once again in my sins In the book of Jude it is called "Twice Dead".

No the reason for working out your salvation in fear and trembling was given in Phil 2:13, one verse AFTER the verse you are citing from the same chapter. We are to work our salvation with humility because it is God who is working to put a passion for his commandments in us, and then empowering us to live it out, to put it on display. You cannot interpret Philippians with James and Jude. It does not work that way. James is speaking to a different issue.

[Arthur Durnan]

If you weren't saved forever the first time, what were you saved from? Sin? no, because the word says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves & we tell not the truth"! From Hell? no, because you're "re-heading" there! Where in the settled Word of Truth do we read of being "being born again, then "re-lost," then "re-saved" later again, and "re-lost" later again, on into the night"? In truth, Paul tells us in Hebrews 6 that if we're "re-lost" after being saved, it's impossible to be "renewed" unto salvation!

John 3:16 is quite clear: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have temporary life."

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Guest shiloh357]

Where in the settled Word of Truth do we read of being "being born again, then "re-lost," then "re-saved" later again, and "re-lost" later again, on into the night"? In truth, Paul tells us in Hebrews 6 that if we're "re-lost" after being saved, it's impossible to be "renewed" unto salvation!

romans 11:16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

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I dont see how much plainer it can be. UNBELIEF caused the natural branches to be broken off, and Paul is here warning that UNBELIEF can cause YOU the reader to be broken off.

John 3:16 is quite clear: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have temporary life."

couple things. Notice the word "believeth". It doesn't say, "whoseover 'believed' in him..."

No, it is a PRESENT PROGRESSIVE VERB. Meaning it is a condition that must be maintained or continue in order to recieve the benefits.

The natural branches are unbelieving Jews who were broken off because of unbelief. He is not talking about Christians being broken off, but those already in unbelief. Secondly, it is arrogance against the Jews that Paul is warning Christians about, not their unbelief.

Secondly, it is not the nature of true Christians to relinquish their faith. It is usually those with an empty profession who can be "religious" for a while but repeatedly return over and over to their vices and filthy rags who demonstrate an inability to believe. Even the faith to believe is a gift from God. That is why those continue to live the mire of sin yet profess Christ, prove that their "profession" is nothing but a lie.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

Not I did not paraphrase anything incorrectly. It is by grace alone we are saved. Faith is not a salvific element. Faith and grace are not two ingredients of salvation. Grace is the only element by which we are saved. Faith is how we receive grace.

If you are referencing mankind, that would be absolutely true.

Faith is the only salvic element for beleivers. It is what separates beleivers from unbelievers. Grace saved everyone. It is faith by which a believer can appropriate that Work of Christ on the Cross, which is also called justification.

But we are then, as believers saved through faith. Faith is the salvic element, period.

I Pet 1:4-5 is the best summary of salvation of the believer.

Furthermore, it is clear that you don't understand James, otherwise you would compare him to Paul. They are not saying the same thing in their epistles because, James is not talking about how to be saved, but how salvation is lived out.

How salvation is to be lived out IS THE SALVATION OF THE BELIEVER. It is a live to be lived IN Christ. That takes effort and work. It is lived out THROUGH FAITH, that is why it it called works of righteousness.

Paul, in referencing works, makes it abundantly clear that works do not play a part in getting, or maintaining salvation.

Two very different aspects of salvation. Paul makes the distinction very clear in all of his writings.

That is why in Eph 2:10, Paul is very careful to point out that we are created for works. He does not indicate in anywhere that works are necessary to maintain salvation, but in v. 10, we see that works are the product of grace; they are not means of procuring it.

Works are a product of faith. If you have no faith, you cannot have works. If you have no works you cannot have faith. It has nothing to do with acquiring grace. All men have Gods Grace. It is not the issue.

Our salvation is designed to cause us to live for the Lord.

Quite the contrary. The salvation of mankind is explicity to permit man to individually choose God. We were held under the bondage to the judgment of Adam, death. Christ redeemed His universe, His created order, to allow for, to permit man to come back into union with Him freely. We do this by faith, justification, then we are saved, as believers, THROUGH FAITH. Faith is the only element. But faith is evidenced by works. Or one can just as easily say, faith is works. They are so interconnected in that if we separate them, each is null and void.

We don't obey to get or maintain salvation.

No, we obey, we follow, we abide IN Christ to maintain faith. Faith equals salvation. It is through faith that we are saved. That is what I Pet 1:5 is clearly saying. We possess that salvation in this life, but it is held as a downpayment, as a security, to make sure that we endure to the end so that we can indeed inherit that salvation. If we lose faith, if we shake off that first faith, we cannot be saved.

That amounts to making ourselves the Messiah instead of Jesus. According to your "theology," we end up saved because of us, and deeds, and not because salvation is a work of God, and God will not stand for such human arrogance

that's because you are not clearly understanding the Work of Christ on the Cross. He saved mankind, just so He could put your individual salvation back into your responsibility which Adam denied all men. You were created to do exactly what you are trying to deny. You want God to take over your responsibility for which He created you. Why would He do that? He saved you (mankind) just so YOU can do it, and not be denied.

. You really need to study more about the relationship between grace, faith and works

You have much further to go than I, I think.

However, if I am wrong, and Christians are present at this judgement, it will be to only confirm their eternal portion, not to be rejudged concerning it. For the Christian the account is settled, on this side of the grave.

That is precisely what is happening. All human beings are being judged. However, believers will not be condemned. It is the final vote, so to speak. We have, upon our own deaths, faced this judgement already.

However, neither for the believer, nor the unbeliever has it ever been decided on this side of the grave. The thief on the cross is prime example. Last minute faith, last minute salvation. As long as we draw breath on this side, our earthly existance, salvation or not being saved has not been determined conclusively.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Thaddaeus

[Thaddaeus]

Primed Minister,

There was absolutely no condition involved.

This was made in reference to Martha statement. I think you better read it again. There is a condition in that statement.

Here is the text again: John 11:25 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Peter's pride at first gave him the belief that he would follow Him at all costs. He ended up denying Him which is what I assume some believers feel will cause one to lose their salvation.

Absolutly, the same as Judas, the difference between these two is sincere repentance. Plus, Peter was asked three times if He beleived after that. You are missing the whole point of our relationship with Christ. It is all about believing and have faith. Faith and belief in the NT can be synonomous in most cases.

If he had not experienced the denial incident, he may of carried the false belief that he had the ability to keep himself saved.

'Wrong terminology really. It has nothing to do with salvation, but faith which is the determinant of that salvation.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

(Philippians 2:13)

He puts the desire in us, and then He works through us, to perform His Will through us, after we have become His willing instruments!!.

It is not saying that in the least. God is working in us, influencing us, persuading us to do His will. He is working for US to do His will. Not working in us to do His will.

It is US, and US alone that decide to become His willing instruments. That is why Paul is saying we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We must make sure we are doing His will, because it is not God doing His Will through US. We are not puppets. We have the responsibility to live IN Christ. We are being held accountable for that decision. God is not going to judge Himself on how will He did His will through YOU.

In effect, Paul is saying that we should submit to this work.

That is correct, but your whole explanation at arriving there is quite the opposite.

And then you say this, totally denying what you just stated but it does reinforce your incorrect assessment above

This torpedoes the silly notion that true Christians who have assurance of salvation, will abuse that assurance to go out and commit sin. The true Christian has God in him/her putting His desires, His character, His agenda, His, purposes in his/her heart, and is then working those things in their lives to bring them to fruition.

It has nothing to do with someone abusing anything. It is all about the fact that the devil is doing the very same thing as the Holy Spirit in your life in the opposite direction. Your free will is buffeted by both the Holy Spirit and the devil. It is your responsibility to submit to whom you desire. That is the problem with sinners, especially sinners who have become believers. Believers are not free from Satan, but recieve his most ardent work in persuading you to go with him, rather then the Spirit. Don't kid yourself. You are the free responsible agent here, not God.

There is nothing that He commands us to do, that He does not also put a passion hearts, and the power in our hands to perform.

That is true, IF we are willing. We can resist everything He gives to us. That is why we will be judged for what WE do, not anyone else.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

You know what cardcaptor?? You should take your own advice and read the whole chapter. If you had bothered to do that, you would have noted that the context here is talking about false teachers/false prophets, not Christians who were saved but lost their salvation. These passages are describing deceivers, not Christians.

"Escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ" does not mean that they were saved.

It cannot be another thing but that they were saved. There are only two places to be. Either one is IN Christ, or he is out of Christ. If one excapes the pollutions of the world, they are IN Christ. If one falls back to the pollutions, they are no longer a beleiver.

The problem is that it does not fit your presupposition that God is going to do everything for you when He demands it of you. Take responsibility for that which you were created to do.

A unconverted sinner will return to his sin like a dog returns to its vomit.

this is an oxymoronic statment. You have the contradiction built right into your statement. Do you even know what you are saying?

Same with this one: These false teachers, are exposed for what they are, because they fall back into their old vices.

As this: oxymoronic: His end is worse than in the beginning. This is true. A sinner who reforms his ways, but returns to his old vices, becomes more sinful, and more abandoned than before.

Tell me, how does a sinner reform his ways that means anything. He is still an unbelieving sinner, right?

In another post WhySoBlind says this:

couple things. Notice the word "believeth". It doesn't say, "whoseover 'believed' in him..."

No, it is a PRESENT PROGRESSIVE VERB. Meaning it is a condition that must be maintained or continue in order to recieve the benefits.

At least he is not so blind.

[Guest shiloh357]

Faith is the only salvic element for beleivers. It is what separates beleivers from unbelievers. Grace saved everyone. It is faith by which a believer can appropriate that Work of Christ on the Cross, which is also called justification.

But we are then, as believers saved through faith. Faith is the salvic element, period.

Wrong. Grace makes salvation available for everyone, but not everyone is saved. Faith is the avenue by which we enter into grace. Grace must be received before a person is saved.

Quite the contrary. The salvation of mankind is explicity to permit man to individually choose God. We were held under the bondage to the judgment of Adam, death. Christ redeemed His universe, His created order, to allow for, to permit man to come back into union with Him freely. We do this by faith, justification, then we are saved, as believers, THROUGH FAITH. Faith is the only element. But faith is evidenced by works. Or one can just as easily say, faith is works. They are so interconnected in that if we separate them, each is null and void.

The above makes absolutely no sense. Faith is evidenced by works, meaning that the presence of works is evidence of belief in Christ. It is not the means of achieving salvation but the evidence of salvation already in existance in the heart. In the Kingdom of God there is pattern. God works from the inside out. This typified for us in the construction of the Tabernacle. God works on the heart, and then deals with the works. Your approach would indicate that it works from the outside in.

Grace is what we are saved by, what we receieve by faith. You are essentially trying to rewiite the Bible to fit your man-based false doctrine of salvation.

No, we obey, we follow, we abide IN Christ to maintain faith. Faith equals salvation. It is through faith that we are saved. That is what I Pet 1:5 is clearly saying. We possess that salvation in this life, but it is held as a downpayment, as a security, to make sure that we endure to the end so that we can indeed inherit that salvation. If we lose faith, if we shake off that first faith, we cannot be saved.

A downpayment is a guarantee. 1 Pet 1:5 says that we are kept by God's power (not by our own works). You are obviously confusing this with Ephesians 1: 13-14 which tells us:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

(Ephesians 1:13-14)

What is actually being said is that the Holy Spirit in us, not our salvation, is the earnest. This is confirmed by 2 Cor. 1:22. Our salvation is not a downpayment. You need to read your Bible. Since you also raised the issue, let me explain how an earnest works. An earnest is a pledge of what is to follow. It is not kept in order to keep you living right, but it is promise based upon God 's character and operations. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is proof that God is sincere, and the Holy Spirit is the seal, the security of the fullness of the promised inheritance to come. Please note that the Holy Spirit is both a seal and an earnest. The word for sealed in the Greek, sphrag

[Guest shiloh357]

There are only two places to be. Either one is IN Christ, or he is out of Christ. If one excapes the pollutions of the world, they are IN Christ. If one falls back to the pollutions, they are no longer a beleiver.

The problem is that it does not fit your presupposition that God is going to do everything for you when He demands it of you. Take responsibility for that which you were created to do.

Wrong. A former alcholoic can espcape the corruption of alcholoism without becoming a Christian. Anyone change their habits, and even become religious and leave their former lifeystyle.

It cannot be another thing but that they were saved.

False teachers, deceivers are liars, and even by your own standards, one cannot be a liar and Christian. Since the context begins with a discussion of false teachers, then it is not Christians that are being discussed.

A unconverted sinner will return to his sin like a dog returns to its vomit.

this is an oxymoronic statment. You have the contradiction built right into your statement. Do you even know what you are saying?

Same with this one: These false teachers, are exposed for what they are, because they fall back into their old vices.

It is not oxymoronic at all. Those who seek to merely "clean up their act" only maintain it for a season, because all a human can do is reform their behavior. They cannot transform their own heart. An unconverted, reformed sinner, will often return to their vices when the pressures of life and the temptations become too much to bear. There is nothing oymoronic about that. It is just truth.

[Guest Primed Minister]

Thaddaeus,

"There was absolutely no condition involved"

This was made in reference to Martha statement. I think you better read it again. There is a condition in that statement.

Here is the text again: John 11:25 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

I understand that. Martha confessed just a Peter confessed her belief that Jesus is the Christ. God revealed this to her, just as it was revealed to Peter. By condition what I meant was "as long as you persevere you will live", etc. In other words, added conditions.

"Peter's pride at first gave him the belief that he would follow Him at all costs. He ended up denying Him which is what I assume some believers feel will cause one to lose their salvation".

Absolutly, the same as Judas, the difference between these two is sincere repentance. Plus, Peter was asked three times if He beleived after that. You are missing the whole point of our relationship with Christ. It is all about believing and have faith. Faith and belief in the NT can be synonomous in most cases.

The difference was not merely sincere repentance. There's nothing in scripture to indicate that Judas was ever a believer. Matt 16:16-17 "Simon Peter replied, "you are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, blessed are you Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven". Peter was completely saved. He was bought and owned by the Father. Nothing of the sort was ever revealed to Judas.

"If he had not experienced the denial incident, he may of carried the false belief that he had the ability to keep himself saved".

'Wrong terminology really. It has nothing to do with salvation, but faith which is the determinant of that salvation.

God deals with those that He's chosen. Including pride. As far as faith? Peter didn't display much faith by going back to his former occupation. As far as he was concerned the walk with Christ was over. It was Jesus (after crucifixion) that came back to him.