Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Guest shiloh357]

When you learn to grow up and act like adult, I will respond to you. From here on out I will not respond to your immature small minded garbage. You are a waste of time, and a waste of intelligence.

Because I anticipate your usual attemp at a rebutal to anyone who quotes a reference other than yourself, I am now the childish and unintelligent one?

Fine, fine, since you get to make up the definitions of words and twist them as you like anyway, who knows? maybe that was a compliment...

No, it is your attitude. The "everybody is stupid but me" attitude that you always bring to a debate. Your arguments are no threat to me, and I have no problem refuting them, but I am not going to be the brunt of your arrogant immature foolishness. The debate was civil until you showed up. Almost EVERY debate is civil until you get involved. Get over yourself. Your reponses are not that impressive.

[Guest Primed Minister]

Many arguments but ONLY ONE Gospel Truth. By the fact that you move to Paul speaking to Churches, we know that they were all believers. Paul specifically warned of those from WITHIN, as well as those from without. His is specifically targeting believers who became false teachers, thus unbelievers. Judas cannot apostacise unless he was of Christ. You can use all the twisting you want to try to get out of it, but there is absolutely nothing in scripture that every supports a guaranteed salavation upon a single ascent of belief. Here you are attempting to change every single word which clearly shows and inside existance, or being IN Christ for a time.

You seem to think that it is you that must determine just who is a believer and who is not. That is up to God to determine in the end. Your premise is incorrect, so that every time a person is shown to have changed while being part of Christ ministry, a member of the early Church, that someone actually was never saved. False premise. no one is actually saved the way you are phrasing it until you are actually dead. Until then we possess it on CONDITION . Condition that we remain faithful. Judas was not. Many of the false teachers were bishops, were believers for a very long time before they began to teach a false concept and in some cases were excommunicated and their teachings declared heretical. Every single one of them was a member of the Body of Christ. Not a single exception.

First off, it is not for me to determine who is a believer and who is not. For instance, in reference to Judas Iscariot, my statement has been that there is no definite indication in scripture that he ever was a believer. If I recall correctly, you yourself have stated his being a believer as a definite. For instance one of the examples you used was Mark 4:11

"And He said unto them, unto you is given the mystery of the Kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables".

In essence you've used this as an example to imply that he definetely believed because he was "in" to hear the mystery. Now that the mystery is not hidden, when you witness to someone, do you speak to them in parables? And being that you probably give the Gospel to them straight, are they automatically saved because you personally revealed the Truth to them? The fact that Judas received the message in such fashion, and not in a parable, in this light would not necessarily mean he believed it. One has to be drawn by the Father or it doesn't matter what they hear.

To say that Judas had received and understood the revelation of Jesus as the Son of God as Peter did would imply this: A revelation knowledge direct from the Father that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And then one fine day (even if in progression) he just didn't believe it anymore.

Imagine this: Saul of Tarsus is on his way to Damascus and is knocked off of his donkey. You know the rest. While on his way to visit the man who would pray for the recovery of his sight, which he received a divine revelation of that being what he should do, half way there he decides he doesn't believe it anymore. He just says "naw, never mind the blindness, or God speaking to me, I don't believe any of this". Or even a week, month, year later after having his sight restored. He'd have to have amnesia to of forgotten all of this to not believe anymore. Do you think Paul is so much more priveledged than us to have this undeniable experience that literally prohibits a genuine falling away from belief?

[Guest Primed Minister]

"Judas was noted as being a devil and was termed 'the son of perdition', a dishonour given only to him and the anti-christ."

Yes, but this is just a little look into the foreknowledge of God. Jesus chose him just to fulfull the prophecy. But are you going to tell me that Judas knew he would be called a "son of perdition" and that God knew this even before Jesus selected him.

How do you know the same might even apply to you right now?

Would by any chance this same hypothetical question/scenario apply to you as well?

Edited October 24, 2006 by Primed Minister

[Thaddaeus]

shiloh,

You are misquoting me. I did not say an unbeliver returns to being unbeliever. I said that an unbeliever who simply reforms his behavior will return to His sin. Try using my wording instead of making up nonsense and attributing to me

Then it becomes a irrelevant statement. It has nothing to do with the topic. The point is that Christians, beleivers do this. They return. Some without repentance. Thus one cannot be saved living in sin, right? Can one be saved through unbelief? Can one be saved having turned to disobedience?

The point I have made over and over again is that salvation is about transformation, from the old to the new. If this does not happen, then there is no basis for anyone to claim they are a Chistian. We cannot rely on empty professions.

Yes, that is precisely correct. And we need to be faithful in all things in order to continue. If we fall, if we return to a sinful living, we CANNOT BE IN CHRIST. it is an impossibility. It has nothing to do with sincere or empty professions. And it is the transforming that will cease.

No, it is prime example of a false profession.

And I could say, who made you God that you would know? It has nothing to do with the confession. It has to do with the maintianing that confession. To endure the faith of that confession. It is your resposibility to make sure YOU endure. Not God, not the Holy Spirit, not anyone else. It is your SOLE RESPONSIBILITY. A decision on which ONLY YOU WILL BE JUDGED. God is not going to be judging Himself on how well He kept you. He keeps you only so long as you are willing. If you are not, neither will He if you persist is denying the Spirit.

Can one be saved if one quenches the Spirit? Does an unbeleiver have the Spirit to quench? I can see this is just another word that will get a qualifier to make it possible.

No, I am describing people who had a false profession

And again, you are the judge? Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that this is indicative of a false confession? It is described as a loss of faith, however, thus can one be saved with no faith?

Wrong again. I know I am a true Christian, because I have the Holy Spirit living in me.

Ah, but we are talking about every other person who calls himself a Christian. You are privey to your own confession, your own faith. But I can make that claim as well. But one I will not make, nor can make is to say that I may still believe 20 years from now. Ask Judas that the day after he became a disciple?

I know for a fact that when I die, I will be with Jesus.

If you think you do then you have a foreknowledge none of us possess. But you can say it today, and every day in the present tense. Because it is that you believe today. But there is no way you can even guarantee that you will be a believer 20 years from now. You can conjecture, that you will be and remain faithful, but you cannot categorically state you will be in heaven 20 years from now.

The Bible says that I can know I am saved (John 5:24, 1 John 5:11-13) I am sealed with the Holy Spirit, and I have the power of God at work on the inside of me. I don't have to wait and see where I will end up.

Yes, all very good promises from God's side of the covenantal contract. But as I just noted above, you can state today, but can you actually guarantee your own salvation 20 years from now?

You are paraphrasing the text incorrectly to begin with. God only works in you if He has your permission. He has your permission with your constant confession of faith.

I Pet 1:4-5 says exactly how God works in you. First the promise is guraanteed, is held in trust, incorruptible, won't rot or rust, and is what? RESERVED FOR YOU. You do not have it for sure yet. Why? Next verse, we, believers, are kept by the power of God (how?) automatically upon some many years earlier confession. No, but THROUGH OUR FAITH for salvation.

Then to counter balance of what this faith actually means is all the verses refering to the losing of faith, becoming unfaithful. If this refers to unbelievers becoming unfaithful, of unbelievers not abiding, of unbelievers not following, not taking up their crosses to follow, unbelievers not being obedient, not loving Him, etc, etc, you can have the arguement.

I am sorry that you don't have that assurance. You are trusting in your works, your flesh, your goodness (what the Bible calls "filthy rags), your effort, your strength, and maybe, just maybe you might make it in, but you'll never know.

Quite the opposite Christ did that part for me as He did it for all of mankind. He saved all of mankind from the fall. But having done that He now offers us the salvation of our souls as well. That is only up to you, through faith. It is continuous process of faithful through faith. It is precisely the works that will save you since faith is evidenced by faith. you cannot have faith without the works, you cannot have works without faith. They are a tandem. Cannot be separated. That is why they are called works of righeousnesss because they are done in and by faith.

That is why we are requested, commanded, in fact, to test to see if we are IN Christ. If one gets in Christ once, based on your view, why the test? It is a rediculous requirement. We cannot possible leave the Spirit, so why test?

You'll never know if you have ever done enough.

It has absolutely nothing to do with enough but that it be done in faith.

You don't know if you good enough, or not. What if your good enough today, but not good enough tomorrow.

Again, it has nothing to do with being good enough, but in faith. If one tests and finds one is not in the faith, then one should repent to remain. That is the transforming, the changing of becoming a mature Christian. But even a very mature Christain can fall.

You have to hope you die on a "good enough day." That is a lot of pressue, I mean any minute, one false move, and you have blown it. What if you forget about a sin to confess?

And you think being a Christian is supposed to be a bed of roses. Christ warned that the world will hate you. That the world will kill you. Wow. that surely is a bed of roses. But it really does not matter according to Paul. In either case dead or alive I am In Christ, with the Lord. If the world does not hate you or persecute you, it may be the test that you may be too much like the world, They really can't tell the difference.

Is taking up ones cross and following Him, forsaking all others, sound rosy to you? We have work to do, working with Him reconciling the world WITH Him. He does not want slackereds, lazy christians, or surely not unfaithful ones.

Sins we may forget. Even many protestants pray for sins of ommission.

Why in the world, would I want what you have? I have the full assurance based on the Word of God, that if I die tonight, I will be with Jesus. Why would I want to backwards and live in your world? You have no assurance that you are even saved this very minute, much less if you die later on tonight. I would never trade the assurance I have for the messed up "wait and see theology" you've got going on.

And you sound like the 5 foolish virgins who were unprepared when the Bridegroom came. But then, we are not speaking of each other. We are speaking of believers as the Bible uses the term and what it means to be and remain faithful to the end.

I might add that I never understood why the OSAS proponents always end with this false confidence. You actually have far less than anyone else of your salvation. You have no asurance that you will not be one of those that ended up being, having never beleived in the first place. If it does not depend on you in any respect. That upon a simple affirmation it is supposed to be automatically given you, yet churches are filled with large numbers of people evidencing this concept that, " they were never of us.". Never saved in the first place. Going through a lot of motions but in the end, never saved. What assurance do you have that you are not really saved, or the elect as some believe.

You can trust in your works, your strength, your effor, your flesh, if you want. I am a Christian, a TRUE Christian, and I will trust in Jesus, cause that's what true Christians do

I'm not trusting in anything but His power, but I need to keep my faith IN HIM, As long as I do, then I know He will continue to do all the work in and through me. If I am not with Him, then He is not either. But then, as I stated earlier, we are not speaking of ourselves. But the defining of what constitutes a believer and what constitutes salvation through faith, by scriptural, rule of faith standard.

Your question starts off about adultery and then goes off into divorce. I did not say anything about divorce. I said adultery. I am talking about men and women going out on their spouses, and specifically I was referring to people who can do these kinds of things without any moral compunction about it. We can have a better debate when you learn how to correctly frame my position. I am getting tired you misprepresenting what I have said. Are you an adult? If so, do you think you could try to debate like one?

It can go off in a lot of different sin. I see it prevelent in Christian churches of all kinds. Yet you say that these kinds of sins that takes a reasonable decision to do for the most part, and implies a willingness on the part of the Christian to do it, is impossible for a true Christian to do. How so?

Without moral compunction. That is the question. They are willingly doing it knowing it is wrong. But you say, they could not possibly do this as a Christian? Where does it say anywhere that we are not prone to sin, that these particular sins are exempt from Christians?

Let me ask you regarding a very fast growing condition, at least again in the US. A very large number of young people, confessing Christians, beleivers in other words, have decided to live together outside of wedlock. It is an acceptable behavior in the so-called secular world for several decades already but now spreading as a habit among Christians. Professing, baptised members of Churches. How so? Is this not lacking moral compunction? Disregarding what the Bible says, what it means to be a Christian?

Having said that, your argument would of necessity be that they did not have a sincere profession, that they were really never saved in the first place.

Whereas, the scriptural defintion of a believer is that they were confessing Christ, were baptised, sealed. But their willingness to continue to follow that initial faith is faltering. Without repentance, one would assume they are outside of Christ. Willfully sinning, knowingly sinning without repentance is defined as living outside of Christ. One cannot sin and sin repeatedly, habitually, without repentance and still be saved.

So, does that describe your view at least? Did I misrepresent what your view says?

The latter is the rule of faith that has existed without change since the Apostles. The so-called OSAS view does not appear on the horizon, but barely in the beginning of the reformation. It really does not even to this day have a defined, unified, clear view of what it even might be. As a belief it is still in flux, hardly the Gospel once given for all.

[Thaddaeus]

Primed Minister,

Or even a week, month, year later after having his sight restored. He'd have to have amnesia to of forgotten all of this to not believe anymore. Do you think Paul is so much more priveledged than us to have this undeniable experience that literally prohibits a genuine falling away from belief?

yes, because Paul places Himself squarely in that very condition, that he might not recieve the end reward. Phil 2:16,

Would by any chance this same hypothetical question/scenario apply to you as well?

It surely can. there is nothing being revealed to me at this time that will be counted as having lived to the end faithfully.I can only live each day at a time. Each day I must commit myself to Him. Only then can I be assured each day that I am not a Judas.

[Guest shiloh357]

Then it becomes a irrelevant statement. It has nothing to do with the topic. The point is that Christians, beleivers do this. They return. Some without repentance. Thus one cannot be saved living in sin, right? Can one be saved through unbelief? Can one be saved having turned to disobedience?

Actually they do not return to sin. That is the problem. You have a broader definition of "Christian" than the Bible does. Those who are able to live in sin and even abandon themselves more to it than before, prove that their profession of faith was false. You are accepting everyone who professes faith, as a Christian, the Bible does not. I will go by the Bible's definition, not yours.

And I could say, who made you God that you would know? It has nothing to do with the confession. It has to do with the maintianing that confession. To endure the faith of that confession. It is your resposibility to make sure YOU endure. Not God, not the Holy Spirit, not anyone else. It is your SOLE RESPONSIBILITY. A decision on which ONLY YOU WILL BE JUDGED. God is not going to be judging Himself on how well He kept you. He keeps you only so long as you are willing. If you are not, neither will He if you persist is denying the Spirit.

I dont' have to be God to know. The Bible outlines perfectly for us how we can know a false profession, from a true one. The book of 1 John spends a lot of time on this.

The New Covenant was not cut with God and Man. It was cut between the Father and Jesus. It is up to them to maintain the covenant, and bring it to completion, not me. God commands us to endure, but He also places in us the empowerment, and the passion to do exactly that. God's commandments are coupled with His power to do what He says. It is not a matter of God sitting back and watching while struggle, and fight, and pull, and drag myself into the Kingdom. It is not a matter of me trying to muster up the strength to bear the weight of salvation on my shoulders and yet still be unsure if I am going to make it or not.

And again, you are the judge? Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that this is indicative of a false confession? It is described as a loss of faith, however, thus can one be saved with no faith?

It is descriptive of a faith that never was. Mental assent, and faith are two different things. You apparently are not theologically equipped to know the difference.

Ah, but we are talking about every other person who calls himself a Christian. You are privey to your own confession, your own faith. But I can make that claim as well. But one I will not make, nor can make is to say that I may still believe 20 years from now. Ask Judas that the day after he became a disciple?

I doubt you can make such a claim. You are resting in your works, not in Jesus. Your salvation is based upon your effort. A real Christian bases their salvation on Christ's work, not their own. You need to make up your mind, really. I already know my future. I don't have to guess.

If you think you do then you have a foreknowledge none of us possess. But you can say it today, and every day in the present tense. Because it is that you believe today. But there is no way you can even guarantee that you will be a believer 20 years from now. You can conjecture, that you will be and remain faithful, but you cannot categorically state you will be in heaven 20 years from now.

It does not take foreknowledge, it is just a matter of taking God at His Word, He cannot lie, and therefore my salvation and place in eternity is more real to me than this life I live in today. You see, I already have eternal life. I entered eternity iwith the Lord the moment I made Jesus my Lord and Savior. Salvation has made more alive than I ever was. I possess eternal life now, I am not waiting to find out if I qualify. I have a know-so salvation, and that means I don't have to conjecture about tomorrow. I am sorry that you don't believe the Bible, but that is not going to stop me. Yes, can categorically state that I will be heaven 20 years from now.

Yes, all very good promises from God's side of the covenantal contract. But as I just noted above, you can state today, but can you actually guarantee your own salvation 20 years from now?

Yes, because it is Holy Spirit living me who is the guarantor.

And you think being a Christian is supposed to be a bed of roses. Christ warned that the world will hate you. That the world will kill you. Wow. that surely is a bed of roses. But it really does not matter according to Paul. In either case dead or alive I am In Christ, with the Lord. If the world does not hate you or persecute you, it may be the test that you may be too much like the world, They really can't tell the difference.

I never said anything about a bed of roses. The problem is that when persecution comes, we can always see the true Christians and we can see the ones with a false profession. Persecution has a way of sifting the true followers of Jesus from the false ones.

Is taking up ones cross and following Him, forsaking all others, sound rosy to you? We have work to do, working with Him reconciling the world WITH Him.

what a bunch of garbage. We cannot reconcile the world with God. If you bother to believe your Bible, you would notice that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. You are not good enough to reconcile the world to God. It has already been done. God is at peace with the world. Our job is to deliver the message of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5) Really try reading your Bible instead of misquoting it from memory.

That is why we are requested, commanded, in fact, to test to see if we are IN Christ. If one gets in Christ once, based on your view, why the test? It is a rediculous requirement. We cannot possible leave the Spirit, so why test?

You are misquoting Paul from 2 Cor. 13:5. Paul was responding to those who challenged His fitness to be an apostle. Pauls tells them to prove themselves whether they be in the faith. Paul's point is that testing themselves would be a more vital excersize than testing his right to be an apostle.

It can go off in a lot of different sin. I see it prevelent in Christian churches of all kinds. Yet you say that these kinds of sins that takes a reasonable decision to do for the most part, and implies a willingness on the part of the Christian to do it, is impossible for a true Christian to do. How so?

Without moral compunction. That is the question. They are willingly doing it knowing it is wrong. But you say, they could not possibly do this as a Christian? Where does it say anywhere that we are not prone to sin, that these particular sins are exempt from Christians?

Let me ask you regarding a very fast growing condition, at least again in the US. A very large number of young people, confessing Christians, beleivers in other words, have decided to live together outside of wedlock. It is an acceptable behavior in the so-called secular world for several decades already but now spreading as a habit among Christians. Professing, baptised members of Churches. How so? Is this not lacking moral compunction? Disregarding what the Bible says, what it means to be a Christian?

Having said that, your argument would of necessity be that they did not have a sincere profession, that they were really never saved in the first place.

Whereas, the scriptural defintion of a believer is that they were confessing Christ, were baptised, sealed. But their willingness to continue to follow that initial faith is faltering. Without repentance, one would assume they are outside of Christ. Willfully sinning, knowingly sinning without repentance is defined as living outside of Christ. One cannot sin and sin repeatedly, habitually, without repentance and still be saved.

First of all, where you getting your facts from? How large of a number? What does that mean? I would expect in a Church where a large number of false "professors" also frequent bars, nightclubs, cheat on their spouses, and on their taxes, that it would not be a surprise that they are raising a generation of fale "professors." The problem is that we have been cowed into never defining what a Christian is, because that would leave some people out, and everybody is afraid of being accused of "judging." A Christian is what a Christian is, and if you can rationalize sin, in order to live in it, and you can do this without remorse, if you profess Christ but accept homosexuality as a valid lifestyle within the pale of Christian Orthodoxy, as many do, then there is a disconnect. It cannot work both ways. Anyone can come with anecdotal examples of someone who "lost their faith." The truth is that they never had it start with. I get so sick of being expected to accept EVERYONE who claims to be a "Christian." There are simply somethings that cannot be compromised on. We have people sitting pews who play church on Sunday, and then live in sin the rest of the week, but I am supposed to accept them as brothers and sisters, and I don't. The Bible says they are sinners in need of salvation.

[billie]

And who came from the House of Judah, the House of Israel?

[billie]

And who came from the House of Judah, the House of Israel?

A lot of people.

One very special One.

[billie]

No, The house of Isreal and Judah are the 12 tribes.

You could take it to mean that, if you wanted to........

[Thaddaeus]

shiloh,

You are accepting everyone who professes faith, as a Christian, the Bible does not. I will go by the Bible's definition, not yours.

Really, can you quote any text that says that someone who beleives is not in the Body of Christ. Actually, the definition or understanding of scripture is anyone who confirms that faith, by repentance and baptism. That is what qualifies as a bonified believer.

I dont' have to be God to know. The Bible outlines perfectly for us how we can know a false profession, from a true one. The book of 1 John spends a lot of time on this.

It is one of the Books that has a very large number of texts which refutes OSAS many times over. You have simply changed the meaning and called it some kind(s) of professions when it is faith that is by and through which we are saved. We are not saved by or through a confession. Name one text that says one is saved upon a confession, let alone a genuine confession.

God commands us to endure, but He also places in us the empowerment, and the passion to do exactly that.

ONLY if you are willing, Only THROUGH your faith. You have not given a single verse yet, that shows He empoweres you , that He is saving you, INSPITE of your waywardness. That it matters not at all how you regard Him, how much you live, obey, how much you follow Him. That He will continue to save you even when you abandon Him, reject Him, are not longer abiding in Him. None.

It is not a matter of God sitting back and watching while struggle, and fight, and pull, and drag myself into the Kingdom. It is not a matter of me trying to muster up the strength to bear the weight of salvation on my shoulders and yet still be unsure if I am going to make it or not.

That's because you are so far to the extreme that it has does not imply that man does anything at all. It is that man believes. That man continue to have faith, so that God can continue to empower you. He does not empower you when you do not what Him. That would be illogical, even from man's point of view.

It is descriptive of a faith that never was. Mental assent, and faith are two different things. You apparently are not theologically equipped to know the difference.

that is becuase you need to redefine the works to fit. A one time belief and you are in, is just that, a mental assertion. It is not back by what the Bible calls, through faith, rather than by faith. We are justified, but if we do not do the doing, we no longer have faith, thus we no longer are even justified, which means to be put into a correct relationship. If you are out of relationship, you are out of Christ. Quite simple, biblically.

Faith is faith. If it is described as faith, that is what it is. If nothing follows that faith, namely the first group in the parable of the sower, which is outright rejection of the gospel, faith just was not exercised. In all others there was faith, maybe short, weak, but faith nonetheless. That is the scriptural understanding of faith. There is no such thing as true faith and false faith. False is no faith, dead faith. You have systematically changed the entire wording and meaning of the key words in this whole discussion.

I doubt you can make such a claim. You are resting in your works, not in Jesus. Your salvation is based upon your effort. A real Christian bases their salvation on Christ's work, not their own. You need to make up your mind, really. I already know my future. I don't have to guess.

That is why OSAS is so dangerous. It gives false sense of security. It leads down the slippery slobe of faithlessness and unbelief. Christ commanded us to watch and wait, not just wait. To test if we are still in the faith, not think that God has guaranteed you at some point in the past of a sincere confession, which many years later one forsakes.

It would be absurd that we have all these warnings regarding some rewards, which no one ever seems to know what they are. That the rewards are much more important than Christ and that one can get the rewards without having Christ.

Yes, because it is Holy Spirit living me who is the guarantor

Find just one, ONLY one text that states explicitly that the Holy Spirit guarantees your permanent salvation in this life without any action or decision on your part. Just one.

I never said anything about a bed of roses. The problem is that when persecution comes, we can always see the true Christians and we can see the ones with a false profession. Persecution has a way of sifting the true followers of Jesus from the false ones.

Not false followers, but faithful who have become unfaithful. How can one even be a false follower. You are either following or you are not following. Once again you have changed the meaning of simple words to fix a contradiction of your view with scripture.

We cannot reconcile the world with God.

Well, I can understand that you would overlook such a text as it sinks your whole view. II Cor 5:18-20. The word co-worker is translated, ambassadors, co-reconciler. Chapter 6:1 seems to be quite plain, that working together with Him.

You are not good enough to reconcile the world to God.

to bad you did not read the rest of that section in context.

Then you turn it right on yourself with these great words.

Our job is to deliver the message of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5) Really try reading your Bible instead of misquoting it from memory.

We are co-workers with Him. How much plainer can you get.

You are misquoting Paul from 2 Cor. 13:5. Paul was responding to those who challenged His fitness to be an apostle.

Yes, checking ones own faith and then making sure it aligns with any teacher. Paul then says to know that we are not disqualified.

Paul's point is that testing themselves would be a more vital excersize than testing his right to be an apostle.

Precisely. Test ones faith. Faith is the only ingredient of our salvation. Better make sure yourself is faithful and not concerned about those bringing the gospel or questioning their qualifications.

First of all, where you getting your facts from? How large of a number? What does that mean? I would expect in a Church where a large number of false "professors" also frequent bars, nightclubs, cheat on their spouses, and on their taxes, that it would not be a surprise that they are raising a generation of fale "professors." The problem is that we have been cowed into never defining what a Christian is, because that would leave some people out, and everybody is afraid of being accused of "judging." A Christian is what a Christian is, and if you can rationalize sin, in order to live in it, and you can do this without remorse, if you profess Christ but accept homosexuality as a valid lifestyle within the pale of Christian Orthodoxy, as many do, then there is a disconnect.

This is not a result of false professions. It is the result of failure to hold to ones faith. To hold to that first faith. That is what all the warnings are specifically addressing. It is faith, faith, faith, faith. It has nothing to do with confessions , professions, or we judging. We leave that to Christ. We are to judge ONLY ourselves. If we judge ourselves, Christ need not judge us in the end. This is exactly the danger in a view as OSAS. One can live confortably in the knowledge that they can sin, but either have already been forgiven and/or that they made a statement of faith fifty years ago, or even 2 years ago. It matters not, it is the loss of faith, a weak faith made weaker and virtually absent because the believer does not take the living IN Christ seriously. They will fall away.

What do you mean by cowed. I scripture cowing you? it is defined in scripture. Accept what it says. One who believes and is baptised shall be saved. Quite simple really, He has entered into the Kingdom. He is a member of the Body of Christ until he and God determine if he is in or out. We don't need to worry about anyone else. We need to worry only about ourselves. are we in the faith. Test, test, test, because if not, you are not being saved, no matter how sincere and heartfelt your long ago profession might have been.

Anyone can come with anecdotal examples of someone who "lost their faith." The truth is that they never had it start with.

It may be, but in losing it we don't need to know. That is God' the judge's knowledge and decision. But the Bible is very clear on what makes one a believer. That is what you are failing to understand. There is no need to make anecdotes about all the qualifiers you have placed on faith just in this post. In order to make sure that no text says you can lose faith, which is quite manifestly obvious that a beleiver can, you need to make sure your definition of faith makes it impossible to define a believer. You actually have not definition, It is always the opposite of what the loss of faith might entail, so you can define it as insincere, false, no faith to begin with. It is a masterful job at gymnastics. Just take it as it is stated. You don't need to redefine the terms.

I get so sick of being expected to accept EVERYONE who claims to be a "Christian."

Why? It is not your job. You are not the judge of another relationship with Christ. If that person made any kind of profession of faith, repented, was baptised, they are a bonified, scripturally defined beleiver. You cannot redefine them out of that definition. It is entrance into the Kingdom, the Body of Christ. It separates you from unbeleivers. It is quite simple but when one is trying to protect a presupposition that must be presented saying the opposite, then it becomes cumbersome, contradictory, and convoluted.

We have people sitting pews who play church on Sunday, and then live in sin the rest of the week, but I am supposed to accept them as brothers and sisters, and I don't. The Bible says they are sinners in need of salvation.

Yes, and they are bonefied believers who have fallen way, we can presume but can never know. We are not the judge firstly. We need to make sure the beam is not in our own eye first.

The Bible says they are sinners in need of salvation.

We are all sinners in need of salvation. But we need to make sure WE are in the faith. It is not automatic. It is not given to you without you doing something. You were created to do the work with Christ. Get about doing it.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Thaddaeus