heaven and hell?

[Prodigalson123]

And even considering the most evil of people, I don't think any of them would deserve eternal hell.

So do I err then that you think that justice isn't important? Using Hitler as an example, why would he deserve to go to heaven? If I can live my life as good as can be, but Hitler is allowed in then what purpose was my behaving in a reasonable manner?

I didn't say that Hitler would deserve to go to heaven. All I said, is that he wouldn't deserve eternal hell.

Christianity would allow that Hitler would go to heaven if he had converted. To me this looks contrary to justice.

ah and thus the quandry. God sees you and me as heinous as Hitler, because we are a sinners. There is no distinction in Gods eyes, a sinner is a sinner. So....the good news is that Hitler would be accepted to heaven if he truly repented, and the same is offered you even though you think that there are people who by matter of degrees are worse, but the law still looks at them as sinners. If you're a felon, it doesn't matter what felony you committed, you are still a felon

Edited October 23, 2006 by Prodigalson123

[TheProcess]

And the theory that our forefathers don't pass along mistakes or benefits to us isn't logical is a fallacy. Do you benefit from the people who went before you in the history of this country? Of course you do. The mistakes and successes by the originators of this republic have affected your ability to be free from the moment you were born. If you were born in the former soviet socialist republic, then your rights and dare I say your perspective would be very different then they would be if born in the US. Your environment and the actions of those who preceded you make an impact on your life. Not really that large a stretch in my opinion then original sin gets passed on to lots of succeeding generations?

You seem to trying to argue from what IS the case, when what is at issue is what OUGHT to be the case. Should God have made Adam in that way?

[TheProcess]

God has a right to satisfy his justice as he sees fit. Do you think you have the status to question God as to how he provides redemption?

The question was whether God would really behave in that way, whether it would be a sensible thing to do. Your response along the lines of, "God can do what he likes", isn't answering the question.

[TheProcess]

ok process, if he doesn't deserve to go to heaven.....but not to hell....then where????

You could have reincarnation perhaps.

[TheProcess]

ah and thus the quandry. God sees you and me as heinous as Hitler, because we are a sinners.

Why should this be the case?

So....the good news is that Hitler would be accepted to heaven if he truly repented

Is this really good news? I think many people would find it suspect.

[apothanein kerdos]

Listen I can only debate with you if what you say makes sense, of course kindness, compasion and wholsome goodness can exist without Christianity. The Buddha was born 560 yrs before Jesus. And feeling undonditional love for all sentient beings is not a construct of the mind. Belief in the unproved and the supernatural is the construct of the mind. The love I have for life is real and all the biblical refrencing and certanties of youre faith dont change that.

Every atheistic philosopher would highly disagree with what you are saying about love. Freud would certainly laugh at the conclusions you brought up. Love, if there is no absolute, is merely something human man, a construct within the mind, and therefore has no true application. To follow Buddha's teachings is to take a moralistic stance on issues that, to true Atheists, are quite subjective. I'm asking for you to reconcile the beliefs. How can you follow teachings of sacrifice when these inevitably go against methodological and metaphysical naturalism?

[redeemed098]

Hello friends. I'am an atheist and a Buddhist. I have been debating on some Islamic websites and found them suprisingly welcoming, and even more suprisingly open to the critisism and my logical aproach to disbeliief. Although many of my arguments are just ignored when I point out that scripture is not proof. But on the whole I have found my experience on the Islamic boards very constructive.

I'm here to open a debate about the claims of the monotheistic religions, I want to talk about Christianities claims and Islam. Anything you would like to know about Buddhism feel free to ask.

So let me start by saying Hello to everyone and hoping you all find peace and happiness.

My first question is why would god burn peacefull, kind, loving non believers and forgive a cruel, selfish believer as long as he repents and asks for forgiveness on his deathbed??

Surely this undermines Christianities claim to be the moral basis in our society.

If a cruel, tyranical Christian can get away with it and be forgiven.

What are heaven and hell for if they are not the celestial carrot and stick to stop us from being evil. Or is heaven and hell just a way of ensuring belief in god???????????

Hi Luke and welcome.

You have a good name Luke..Luke means "to walk in the light."

Luke, what makes you think these people are kind, peaceful and loving..? and what makes you think a "cruel, selfish" believer is truly repentant at all...?

Why do you equate UNbelievers with being Kind, loving and peaceful and yet see believers as cruel and selfish...? Surely there are UNbelievers who are cruel and selfish, as there are also believers who are kind, loving and peaceful..

If it were up to YOU Luke to decide what constitutes "goodness" and "Kindness", then I guess the standard would be set on the foundation of what YOU think or in your opinion it IS to be "good" or "Kind." So what does it mean to be good or kind then...? Is it who helps the most people in time of need..? Is it the one who pours the most money into charity...??? Is it the soldier who takes a bullet to save his buddy...? Is it the mom who gets up every morning with three kids and gets them all ready for school and looks after the house all day while hubby is at work...? Is it Mother Theresa...? Is it the pope...? How do we define "good..??"

Surely you can see that in order for us to be good, then there MUST be a standard that defines what it IS to be good.

Have you heard the story Jesus told about the "good Samaritan." Jesus teaches that what this man did was a Good and right, but he is also quite clear in his teachings that there is NONE who is good. So what then of the "good Samaritan..?" He did a charitable thing but was he saved by his act of goodness or did he still need to repent of his sins in order to be saved..? You see, while the Samaritan did what was admirable, clearly this is NOT what God means by "good."

Good in mans eyes, YES..!! But in Gods sight, clearly there is another standard of "goodness". Otherwise he wouldn't call ALL people everywhere to repent. It is easy to look good in the sight of men Luke, but how does one look when God himself is the standard...?

You see Luke, while you feel free to determine for yourself who IS and ISNT good, you make yourself the standard. In effect the statement you make is this.

"The world would be a much better place to live if people were more like ME."

While this may be a nice thought to have, and you may even think it to be true, there is something I want you to know about Christians...Followers of Christ do NOT think the world would be a better place if people were more like THEM. They believe the world would be a better place if people were more like CHRIST.

Christians recognize the power of sin and damaging effects it can have on peoples lives. They also recognize that they themselves have fallen well short of the standard of God. Christians know that they are not "good" Luke...They may do good things and on many occasions do bad things too, but Luke, being good is about a whole lot more than "Not being Bad." Its not always about the things that you Did do, it can often be about the things that didnt do which you should have. We dont measure goodness Luke...God has already given us the standard..He IS the standard. If you want to see the plumbline that God has put in place to measure goodness, then look to the 10 Commandments. Judge yourself according to THEM...Test yourself..See how good you look in the sight of God.

Let me ask you a question Luke...From the heart think about the answer..No need to respond Luke, just think about it....

If God were right now this very instant to remove from the world all poverty, illness and disease, famine, drought, pestillence and war....How long do you think it would stay that way..??

If you are going to ask questions about God Luke, then they must begin on a right premise...There is nothing wrong with God. It is we who are slaves to sin and our own self indulgences. We need to look at ourselves, not others...We need to realise that no one elses sins are ever going to justify or excuse our own.

We need to look to Christ, not Christianity.

Your question about heaven and hell is a good one, but to put a really simple answer in place for you I would say this...

God has shown us that there are two absolute kingdoms at work here....and he has done it for a very good reason...To reveal to ALL that there is NO neutral ground or fence to sit on...There is a Kingdom of Light and there is a Kingdom of Darkness. In this lifetime you will choose to serve one or the other. Luke, one more thing....In this lifetime you will also choose which one of these are to be your eternal dwelling place.

You do not have to believe this is true of course, but NOT believing wont alter anything...Nothing has the power to alter truth. Not even UNbelief. You see, when you choose to NOT believe, your choice is a conscious choice. When you choose not to go ONE way, you are actually choosing to go the other.

Think about these things.

Regards,

Ben.

Hello Ben, and thankyou for youre warm welcome. And please I know my name, dont wear it out bro!

First let me clarify something that you guys seem to be missunderstanding. I dont know why you guys are missinterpreting what I said. But I didnt say that non believers were all loving and believers were all bad, my experience is that most people are compassionate.

Without love and compassion, (which by the way are not exclusive qualities of the Christians) the human race couldnt survive, so most people Christians, Muslims and Atheists alike are kind and compassionate.

As for what defines good it is all about intentions. Act with greed, ignorace or murderous intent I think we can all agree that this is bad. Act with love, compassion and kindness in youre heart, I think we all agree that is good.

It is not about doing amazing works for charity, gangsters give money to charity that says nothing about you heart. When I buy my paper I have a genuine affection and empathy for the newsagent, I smile and take the time to talk to the newsagent. You see if you live youre life with a feeling of connection and compassion with the world around you and the people you come into contact with, this is without a doubt an ethical and good way to lead youre life. You should live like this because you actually love the people you meet not because god told you to be good it should come from youre heart.

As long as you try to lead youre life like this with love in youre heart refrain from violence, lying, stealing or using sex as a weapon or tool you will have lived a wholesome life.

As for the rest of what you say about me thinking that the world we be a better place if everyone thought like me. When did I say that??

That is not what I think! and the world would without a doubt be a duller place if everyone was the same. Anyway the whole idea is absurd, reality is far to complex for everyone to be the same it is an imposibility a total fantasy.

But saying that, isnt that the aim of Christianity?

To convert every man woman and chid into the faith? This is not my wish and please dont atribute things I didnt say to me.

Also I didnt say that I was some kind of judge or baromator for who was good and who was bad, only you youreself can know what youre intentions are soo please stop putting statements in my mouth that I didnt say.

As for the ten commandments. Wasnt it Moses that god gave them to? Is that the same Moses that was incensed by the Isrealites mercifull restraint towards the conquerd medianite people. And gave orders to kill all male prisoners and older women.

''BUT ALL THE WOMEN CHILDREN WHO DO NOT KNOW MAN BY LYING WITH HIM, KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURESELVES''

You see all this talk of god and how everyone should be Christian or fry in the lake of fire is not only contradictory and illogical, the only authority Christians have to back their claims up is scripture, the passage of time and their imovable, blind faith.

Even if on the off chance there is a creator god, what are chances that the rules and customs in the bible would really be its will, this creator who created billions of galaxies with billions of stars and billions of planets would of had himself incarnated as a man to be tortured and executed for a symbolic sin by a Adam who seeing as we have discovered dinosuar bones almost surely didnt exist.

Why would such a powerfull creator use such an inefficiant way of getting his message accross?

Surely such an important message as OBEY,BELIEVE OR BURN. Should have been comunicated to every man woman and child on the planet. Not just the people who where lucky enought to be born in the geographical area as Jesus.

Why would he have left such an important message open to logical critisism. Why would he hide dinosuar bones??? Is he a prankster, is he trying to trip us up???

If he wont reveal himself to us and he wants us to believe in him through faith, why then give us enquiring minds????? Why give us teachings about the cosmos that are totally wrong?? The sun does not revolve around the earth, why tell us that??????

As for youre question about how long the earth would remain without hunger, poverty and war if a supreme being removed poverty, hunger and war..?? Well that is simple. If he didnt change the way plants grew, humans tribal nature and the size of the population, not very long. But what has that got to do with anything???

So until Christianity or Islam can bring tangible proof of god and then prove that the rules in youre particulr book is actually the will of god then we should question god and all of the claims that Christians and Muslims make.

As for the idea that something with such complexity as life and the universe can be divided into such a simple predictability as good and evil is crazy. Life is far more amazing and complex than that.

Peace

I see...So it isnt that you dont acknowledge God...You just dont like him. You dont agree with what he has said and done. I would challenge you to read the book of Job. In particular the dialogue where God addresses Job. You will find that God demonstrates that HE is God and Job is NOT. He then shows Job and gives him reasons why HE is God and Job is NOT. He gives Job very good reasons for his Trust in God to be validated. Job at the end of this discourse is thankful that he is NOT God and that God IS. He admits to speaking of things he knew nothing about.

It is easy to think you have all the answers Luke. God has very good reason for EVERYTHING he requests and requires...Cancer cannot be allowed to spread. Evil begets evil. You may not agree with what God commanded, but then again you are NOT God and therefore have no insight as to why he commands these things. It seems nonsensical to you because you hold yourself up as morally superior to God. Please Learn from the book of Job.

Your knowledge and understanding of how and why God has done ANYTHING has been tainted by your fallen sinful nature.

If God addresses the most righteous man in all the land (Job) as one withOUT knowledge, what would he say to YOU....??

You speak wrongly of God. Your premise is founded on the basis that YOU are good and God is NOT....I have news for you Luke..

The Word of God Judges YOU...You do not judge IT. The word of God is the standard by which your very own life will be measured. By that, I do not mean your failure to accept or do what God has commanded. Its already known that there is none who are righteous. The gospel of Christ has nothing to do with YOU accepting Christ....The True gospel message is Gods acceptance of YOU through the atoning sacrifice of Christ for your sins. Christ offered himself up to God for YOU...You do not accept HIM....God accepts YOU through Christs offering or not at all.

The truth is Luke, that you are NOT righteous and you are not "Good". Oh, sure, by your own standard you are...Your salvation however has never been dependent on YOUR goodness...It is dependent on Gods goodness toward you.

The salvation of the cross left Christ with scars that he will bare for all eternity....Imagine that Luke..You can be healed and totally set free, but HE will always be the Lamb who was slain since the begining of the world. He whom YOU condemn layed down his own life for those who would condemn HIM.

No one elses sins will excuse yours Luke...Dont ever forget that...!! There are two kingdoms Luke...The Kingdom of Light and the Kingdom of Darkness...The deception which you are living under right now is the belief that you are serving NEITHER....Truth as Jesus revealed is that there is no NEUTRAL territory...No fence to sit on. You are deceived into thinking you are are outside of these two kingdoms in a kingdom of your own...THAT'S the deception. Jesus said that it is impossible for a man to serve two masters..He will love the one and hate the other...This is a simple equation...You either HATE God and Love satan, or you love God and Hate satan.

Your deception is that you think there is a life outside of these two kingdoms. You have already demonstrated with your own words that you are not serving God...So who are you serving Luke..?

Regards,

Ben.

[Prodigalson123]

process, I have answered your statements, if you don't like the answer, then I have nothing left for you. You ask me why God would do something? I don't know why you would do something, so how can I speak for God?

Why should this be the case?

again, you ask questions that I answered. We inherited the condition form Adam, think of it as a spiritual birth defect.

The question was whether God would really behave in that way, whether it would be a sensible thing to do. Your response along the lines of, "God can do what he likes", isn't answering the question.

again, asked and answered. Just because you don't find it satisfactory doesn't mean that it wasn't answered. I would infer that this was the way God's justice could be satisfied. Look at Genesis 15. God makes promises to Abraham by swearing on Himself. Why? Because there is no higher authority, and He can't go against His own righteousness.

You could have reincarnation perhaps.

See, here is a perfect example of my not answering you like you are answering me. I reject your premise, but don't claim you didn't answer the question. Give me proof that reincarnation exsists. Are you going to use anectdotal evidence? personal testimony? If you are, then you are hardly in a position to claim that the case for Christ can't use the same

You seem to trying to argue from what IS the case, when what is at issue is what OUGHT to be the case. Should God have made Adam in that way?

I think you asked why, not what ought to be. If the question is what ought to be, then I go back to the question about do you have the prerequisite wisdom to make that decision? I would imagine you, nor anyone else except God, does. And if you think you do, could you please post your resume so that I may judge you worthy, since you seem to think that is a human beings role here Edited October 23, 2006 by Prodigalson123

[luke07930]

[

[luke07930]

Luke, I'm not sure why you think that not only can you ask for a debate, but also frame the parameters of the debate. Are you so naive that you don't think that scriptures, that the religion is based on, will be the core of the response when issues are brought up? If you want to discuss the validity of Christiantiy, my suggestion would be to look at other posts in this category to see some of the arguments. If you want to have a discussion, then maybe not telling people how to answer would be a first step. Debating is the presentation of ideas, then the logical examination of those ideas. Thus far all you've spoken about is why would God send good people to Hell? The answer was given to you, there are none righteous, no not one. Religions that believe that they can get to heaven by actions are, by definition, self-righteous. No matter the persuasion of the individual, everyone I've met is flawed and imperfect. Why does the concept that God would allow those who conform to His requirement (which is belief in His provididng a way to Him, his son Jesus Christ) then seem so out of the realm of possible? Do you at least admit it is possible? I also find it humorous how people like to state that this or that predated Christianity as if that in and of itself disqualifies the ethic. It doesn't predate God no matter the philosophy. Now the real matter is how do we prove God was before everything? How do you prove He wasn't? So, since the whole topic is grandiose, lets start with something small. I'm happy to have the discussion with you as long as it stays civil, and not insulting. Ask me a specific question and I will endeavor to answer you honestly, but....scripture will be part of it but we can dissect the verse to see if there is validity, ok?

What I'm saying is that using scripture proves nothing.

It is so rare that anyone quotes scripture that even starts to prove anything to a nonbeliver. For the simple reason that scripture is written by believers for believers.

If I'm asking where is the logic in burning a gentle human being and forgiving a violent believer, telling me its gods will doesnt explain it. If I ask for evidence of god or proof that youre rules are really the will of god, quoting Christian rules at me doesnt clarify anything. Not a thing.

If I ask a Muslim how he can claim that the Koran is the word of Allah and he replies ''you must surrender to Allah, I will show you the truth of the Qu'ran'' and quotes a piece of scripture.

'Do you not see that Allah is He Whom do glorify all those who are in the heavens and the earth, and the (very) birds with expanded wings? He knows the prayer of each one and its glorification, and Allah is Cognizant of what they do. (The Light 24.41)'

Does this prove anything? Is it constructive to the debate? Does it answer my question?

If you ask me to explain the Buddhist teaching of no self/emptiness and I say ''it is because Lord Buddha says it is so, you must obey'' The Dharmapada says

''All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.''

Do you now see the logic in no self/emptiness??

No, it is not constructive debate. It is preaching, not debate.

When Christians and Muslims quote their books to argue a point they make the assumption that just because they endow their book with the authority of undisputed truth, others will as well.

Atheists are totally scepical about the authority of the Bible and the Koran. So dont use the bible to defend youre faith.

Use proof, evidence, logic.

If you dont do this we can only assume that youre faith is just that and nothing else.

no logic, no proof, no evidence just blind faith.

If this is the case then you should keep youre beliefs out of politics, out of education and off the battlefield, until you can bring something more substantial to the table than a book and superstition.

As you requested, I will ask you a question...................

if god really loves us and doesnt enjoy troturing souls for all eternity, why didnt he have a prophet and messiah in every town and village across the planet, from Papua New Guinea and Borneo to Australia and Africa??? Or was he quite happy to fry those poor souls until the white man conquered their countries???

Surely an all powerfull, mercifull god would have been able to do this. According to you guys his message is ''I LOVE YOU'' ''BELIEVE IN ME OBEY OR BE TOTURED FOR ALL ETERNITY''

If so he would have used his power and ubiquitous nature to tell all in such a way that could not be argued with, Then he could rightfully say ''I TOLD YOU SO''

But on the flimsy evidence he supposedly left us and the totally inefficiant way he used of spreading his urgent message tells me, if you guys are right about the lake of fire and then he is not loving and he enjoys torture.

Or of course you could also come to a more logical conclusion!!!

That there is no truth in it what so ever.