Who Is Babylon?? according to Jeremiah 50-51

[Ephesians2-8]

There are a few books published advocating the notion that this Babylon of prophecy is the United States. The most prominent book out there is - "America, The Babylon" - volumes 1 and 2 - about 600 pages - by R.A. Coombes. Dr. Mark Hitchcock, a professor at Dallas Seminary noted in his book "Is America in Bible Prophecy" notes that Coombes' work on the subject is the most definitive work to date advocating the theory that America is the Babylon of prophecy.

Coombes' work has been hailed by several conservative Seminary professors, such as Dr. Fred Fogle and Dr. John Stohl of Grace Theological Seminary.

Coombes' work is not alone - Peter Goodgame in "Red Moon Rising" also goes to some length on the subject, and there are other, lesser works out there - but none as scholarly nor as extensive as "America, The Babylon."

Coombes' also has written other short books on the Babylon subject:

"The Mystery Babylon Debate Handbook"

"Mystery Babylon: Myths & Errors of Interpretation"

Both of the above are FREE E-book downloads you can get by going to this link:

http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=67

"America, The Babylon" - the book website is here:

http://americathebabylon.com/

Peter Goodgame's book - Red Moon Rising is also good - you can get more details on it at

http://www.redmoonrising.com/

Oh, Coombes' books - "America, The Babylon" Volume 1 goes heavily into the Hebrew and Greek textual analysis and includes grammatical analysis as well as lexical analysis and includes Strong's code number links to readers can verify his assertions for themselves. Volume 2 is primarily empirical proofs of America's Babylonian connections with hundreds of internet webpage links, some of which should raise the hair on the back of your neck. Also he includes chapters on why Babylon cannot be the Roman Catholic Church or Rome and another on why Iraq or ancient Babylon cannot be the future Babylon. He also notes in another chapter all the reasons why Babylon cannot be New York City or any other city and why it must be a nation - based upon the original Greek texts plus the descriptions of Isaiah, Jeremiah and John. All of this is why many who've read this book consider it to be "the definitive work" on the subject.

[givennewname]

I have a new thread here for us. please give your strong opinions and beliefs. I have been reading Jeremiah 50-51 and does anyone think this could pertain to the United States??

Do you know that back in 1988 Saddam Huissein believed he was Nebuchadnezzar for our day brought back with a message??

How many of you remember his claims back then? I sure do! Where is America in this picture?

God bless, let's stay peaceful....Girl

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text.

I agree.

I do think that the US fits the description of Babylon in the book of Revelation but when I take into consideration the prophesies about the revived Roman Empire and how the EU also fits the description of Babylon. I believe that the future Babylon is the nation of the EU. Which will include all of the territory of the old Roman Empire with Russia being an ally or part of the EU and England being separated from it in the future. At some point in the future the EU is going to change it's policies about Israel and become totally against it when the antichrist breaks his deal with Israel.

If we examine the text of Jer 51 carefully, some of the text were fulfilled in the conquest of Babylon by the Medes, but some of the chapter in Jer 51 does not fit with that event and await future fulfillment.

According to history of the conquest of Babylon by the Medes, there was very little bloodshed as the Medes took Babylon by subterfuge and diverted the Euphrates river. They entered Babylon when most of the inhabitants were asleep and partying as recorded in the book of Daniel. More importantly, the Medes did not destroy Babylon and much of the wealth and commerce continued well after the conquest. In fact when Alexander the Great conquered Babylon it was still a very prosperous city and doing very well. After the conquest of Babylon by Alexander, the city lost prominence due to the shift in trade routes and never regain the wealth and its former glory. The decline was slow and very gradual, until a madman called Saddam hussein rebuilt palaces right on the ancient ruins of the old Babylon. Well why am i being so long winded..?? the reason is that Jer 51 does not correlate well with the historical fate of Babylon to make complete fulfillment in the conquest of Babylon by the Med es.

51:1 Thus saith Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in Leb-kamai, a destroying wind.

Jer 51:2 And I will send unto Babylon strangers, that shall winnow her; and they shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about.

Jer 51:3 Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his coat of mail: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host.

Jer 51:4 And they shall fall down slain in the land of the Chaldeans, and thrust through in her streets.

The scale of destruction of Babylon described in Verse 2 cannot be accounted for by the invasion of Babylon by the Medes.. we know that very little of Babylon was destroyed in the Persian invasion and the city continues to function well into the Grecian empires of Alexander the Great. Similarly verse 3 & 4 cannot be accounted for by the Persian invasion of Babylon and await future fulfillment.

Jer 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: wail for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.

Jer 51:9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country; for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.

Similarly verse 8 is never fulfilled. The destruction of Babylon was very gradual and Saddam did enough building of his palaces to invalidate verse 9 if the Chaldean Babylon is the city mentioned in Jer 51..

Partial fulfillment of prophecy is not fulfillment as we know one jot or even one dot cannot be omitted from scriptures.

I do think that the US fits the description of Babylon in the book of Revelation but when I take into consideration the prophesies about the revived Roman Empire and how the EU also fits the description of Babylon. I believe that the future Babylon is the nation of the EU. Which will include all of the territory of the old Roman Empire with Russia being an ally or part of the EU and England being separated from it in the future. At some point in the future the EU is going to change it's policies about Israel and become totally against it when the antichrist breaks his deal with Israel.

the woman in Revelation is a city:

Rev 17:18 And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Just take the literal word from the Bble.. the woman is a city. she is not a region like the EU and she may control the power of seven kings..

Rev 17:9 Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:

Rev 17:10 and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goeth into perdition.

The city sits on 7 mountains or hills and controls 7 kings..

and Babylon had been the code name for Rome since the time of the apostles..

1Pe 5:13 She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.

1Pe 5:14 Salute one another with a kiss of love. Peace be unto you all that are in Christ.

So Babylon has to be Rome..

[Ephesians2-8]

The city sits on 7 mountains or hills and controls 7 kings..

and Babylon had been the code name for Rome since the time of the apostles..

1Pe 5:13 She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.

1Pe 5:14 Salute one another with a kiss of love. Peace be unto you all that are in Christ.

So Babylon has to be Rome..

[givennewname]

The city sits on 7 mountains or hills and controls 7 kings..

and Babylon had been the code name for Rome since the time of the apostles..

1Pe 5:13 She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.

1Pe 5:14 Salute one another with a kiss of love. Peace be unto you all that are in Christ.

So Babylon has to be Rome..

You might want to reconsider that conclusion if you'd read the information posted in the links I gave in my earlier post. If you really follow up on what that author wrote, it will likely 'blow your mind."- It did that to me and to everyone else I've passed the book around to.

The author goes into great scholastic detail in regards to Rev 17:9 and proves that the verse does not in any way refer to Rome and 7 hills. He's not alone. There are several Seminary professors who've written on this same problem involving Rev 17:9.

The Links I gave also note that the woman is the chief goddess of Babylon, Ishtar who held the title "Mother of the Harlots" given her by her worshipers as a title of great holiness. Her priestesses were called "holy harlots" and perpetual virgins who were pure, holy and sinless and they functioned to take away the worshipers sins during a religious sexual rite of intercourse which purified the worshiper and he or she gave a gold or silver coin in the temple collection box as a thanksgiving offering. Ishtar's mystery religion then invented the idea of prostitution as a religious means of salvation and it also invented the idea of money - gold/silver coins and banking and loans at interest. It also involved special sex rites with the King as well as merchants travelling through Babylonia. Hence all the references in Revelation 17/18 to the woman and the kings and merchants.

Hopefully, that will give you enough interest to follow up with your own investigations and research. So check out those publications - They're free... can't h

Right, I read the articles.. problem is the statue of Liberty may be modelled after Isthtar but i don't belive New York worships her as a Goddess. Come over to my country, you would find statues of chinese Ishtar goddesses and the people actually bow down with incense and every house will have a statue, only the name is changes to a chinese version.. maybe Malaysia or hong kong may be the city then??

The worship of a female Goddess and child is so prevalent in Asia as the Babylonian Mystery religion has spread worldwide.. Maybe Hislop may be mistaken about Seramis but the mother and child cult s so prevalent in Hindusim, chinese taoism and other pagan religions...

[givennewname]

The city sits on 7 mountains or hills and controls 7 kings..

and Babylon had been the code name for Rome since the time of the apostles..

1Pe 5:13 She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.

1Pe 5:14 Salute one another with a kiss of love. Peace be unto you all that are in Christ.

So Babylon has to be Rome..

You might want to reconsider that conclusion if you'd read the information posted in the links I gave in my earlier post. If you really follow up on what that author wrote, it will likely 'blow your mind."- It did that to me and to everyone else I've passed the book around to.

The author goes into great scholastic detail in regards to Rev 17:9 and proves that the verse does not in any way refer to Rome and 7 hills. He's not alone. There are several Seminary professors who've written on this same problem involving Rev 17:9.

The Links I gave also note that the woman is the chief goddess of Babylon, Ishtar who held the title "Mother of the Harlots" given her by her worshipers as a title of great holiness. Her priestesses were called "holy harlots" and perpetual virgins who were pure, holy and sinless and they functioned to take away the worshipers sins during a religious sexual rite of intercourse which purified the worshiper and he or she gave a gold or silver coin in the temple collection box as a thanksgiving offering. Ishtar's mystery religion then invented the idea of prostitution as a religious means of salvation and it also invented the idea of money - gold/silver coins and banking and loans at interest. It also involved special sex rites with the King as well as merchants travelling through Babylonia. Hence all the references in Revelation 17/18 to the woman and the kings and merchants.

Hopefully, that will give you enough interest to follow up with your own investigations and research. So check out those publications - They're free... can't hurt.

So are you saying that New york is the BAbyon mentioned in Rev 17 or is it that BAbylon will be restored and destroyed again?

[Guest]

That's not to say we can't find direction and meaning in the scripture. But, because we, in our time, want to see something new and exciting and fresh and different, because we want so desperately to be taken seriously as God's children, the line between the inspired writers and the illumined readers gets blurred and we wind up spending a disproportionate amount of time parsing out dubious meanings from obscure passages that have nothing to do with what we want them to say. We want this answer from this passage now. I'm afraid that what passes for scholarship and prophetic utterance, especially in charismatic circles, is simply nothing more than a grand exercise in self-deception.

Dear One

Is The Bible Really Closed To You

Or Do I Mistake The Intent Of Your Teachings

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:20-21

[Ephesians2-8]

I have a new thread here for us. please give your strong opinions and beliefs. I have been reading Jeremiah 50-51 and does anyone think this could pertain to the United States??

Do you know that back in 1988 Saddam Huissein believed he was Nebuchadnezzar for our day brought back with a message??

How many of you remember his claims back then? I sure do! Where is America in this picture?

God bless, let's stay peaceful....Girl

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text.

Rufus

I went over this in a different thread regarding Jeremiah 30 and 31 but it seems that with your posting here the record again needs to be set straight.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 is replete with Hebrew Messianic Idioms referencing the fact that the oracle of Babylon is a reference to the time just before the Coming of Messiah to set up the Millennial Kingdom.

50: 2 -- "Declare ye among the nations" -- is a special Hebrew Messianic idiom...followed by a second one right after that...

50:2 -- "and publish" --

50:2 ---"set up a standard" --

These 3 idioms abbreviated as they are refer to one Messianic ordinance - the requirement that the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet and escort the Messiah through the Messianic gate into Jerusalem.

In order to accomplish this requirement, the Jews set up an elaborate signaling/communications system using "flagmen" set on the top of the hills surrounding Israel. These flagmen had special flags or banners (KJV - "standard") - There was a special flag or banner or "standard" that was reserved for the Messiah. When it was waved by a flag man, it meant, the Messiah had been spotted approaching Israel. The flagmen on adjacent hill tops would see the Messiah's banner being waved and they in turn would wave their own Messiah flag or banner to signal to the next hilltop post further down the chain that the Messiah was coming. This created a chain reaction across the entire flagpost network across Israel, so that the Tribal elders could be notified in advance and make haste for Jerusalem in order to greet and escort the Messiah into Jerusalem and thus fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

Now, the Prophets, in order to conserve on space and ink, abbreviated this concept into 'idioms" and often times further abbreviated the idioms... such as -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" - or in English = "The Banner of the Messiah" abbreviated to "the banner" or "waving of the banner" or in the KJV "Publish" as a totally abbreviated idiomatic reference to the above flag signalling system. Also, as part of that alert system. A Messianic shout would be given or "Delcared" --

So that in verse 2 we 3 distinct Messianic idioms indicating that the entire oracle is set in the time frame of the coming of the Messiah and the fact that we have triple repetition is indicative of the absoluteness of the time frame. In other words, God is making it crystal clear that what follows in the description will take place in the time frame of the coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic, Millennial Kingdom.

So right off the bat in Verse 2, after the announcment that chapter 50 was a prophecy concerning Babylon we have the triple Messianic idiom references -- indicating that what is to follow is describing events that will occur at the time of the Coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic Kingdom.

In verse 4 and again in verse 20, the same Hebrew Messianic idiom is repeated - "In those days and in that time"

In chapter 51: verse 12 " Set up the standard" - the abbreviation for "gevlai shel Meshiach" the specific Messianic idiom.

In Chapter 51: verse 27, "Set up the standtard" -- again the same abbreviated Hebrew Messianic idiom.

And yet one more Messianic idiom - in verse 52 -- "Behold the days come" -- the days of the Coming of Messiah.

Furthermore -- Isaiah also does that same thing with his oracle against Babylon...

Isaiah 13 - verse 2 = "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain" -- here again the Hebrew Messianic idiom - "gevlais shel Meshiach." and then he further states to confirm this Messianic idiom - "exalt the voice unto them".... "shake the hand" [greeting the Messiah] ..."that they may go into the "gates of the nobles" - a reference to the Tribal elders greeting the Messiah and escorting him through the gates into Jerusalem.

Verse 6 -- "For the Day of the Lord is near" -- another Messianic idiom without abbreviation... and note that day is "near" when Babylon is judged by a fiery judgment.

Verse 8 ... "as a woman in travail" -- again another Messianic reference - see also Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the same idiom.

Verse 9 "Bhold, the Day of the Lord" - again same Messianic reference.

Both Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of a future Babylon, a super-power nation with the character traits of ancient Babylon which shall be destroyed in a special Divine judgment just before the coming of Messiah.

Both prophets are writing about the same Babylon as found in Revelation 17 and 18. All of these prophecies speak to a single, solitary nation of the end-times before the Messianic Kingdom is established.

It should be stated that neither prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. Persia's conquest of Babylon occured without a shot being fired. The city was not destroyed at all, and was not burned with fire in one day, neither were her cities (plural) destroyed by fire and neither did Babylon or Babylonia sink forever beneath the ocean waves nor did the sea come up over her... Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Neither did she become like Sodom and Gomorrah, never to be inhabited again nor even found.

No scholar in their right mind, claims to think that Jeremiah and Isaiah's predictions were fulfilled according to the writtend descriptions of Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Two of the biggest problems in understanding the Old Testament prophets are the historical distance and the fact that the prophets wrote/spoke a large part of their work poetically. Because the vast majority of us are inexperienced or unpracticed in exegeting the prophets, this can lead to all kinds of wild theories and speculation that have no basis in fact.

Any interpretation of what the prophets were saying has to be grounded in an understanding of the Mosaic covenant, specifically the passages in Deuteronomy 4 and Deuteronomy 25-30, where Moses records the blessings, curses and penalties for keeping and breaking the covenant. The prophets' job was to remind Israel of who they were and who they belonged to; it was not to hide esoteric clues about the end of the world that were not to be understood until thousands of years later.

It is human nature to want to be in the know.However, God doesn't operate that way. He doesn't hide things in the text for thousands of years and then suddenly reveal them to you and me. None of the Bible was written personally to anyone in our day. That's not to say we can't find direction and meaning in the scripture. But, because we, in our time, want to see something new and exciting and fresh and different, because we want so desperately to be taken seriously as God's children, the line between the inspired writers and the illumined readers gets blurred and we wind up spending a disproportionate amount of time parsing out dubious meanings from obscure passages that have nothing to do with what we want them to say. We want this answer from this passage now. I'm afraid that what passes for scholarship and prophetic utterance, especially in charismatic circles, is simply nothing more than a grand exercise in self-deception. The most extreme example that I can think of is the post that was here some months ago about how the Bible predicted the events of 9/11/2001.

To Rufus,

You didn't bother to address the numerous Messianic idioms which these prophets used - Isaiah and Jeremiah indicating that the particular passages in question were intended for a far future time - when the conquering Messiah would come.

Just what does "Day of the Lord" refer to if not the time of the coming of Messiah??????????

Just what does the term "Banner of the Messiah" -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" and its associated abbreviations refer to if not to the time of the coming of Messiah???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

There are 3 separate abbreviated variations of that idiom in Jeremiah 50:2 which kicks off The Oracle of Babylon's future judgment - the description of which - was never ever fulfilled - not even close ... in 539 B.C. by Cyrus.

Even Rabbinical sources at the time of Ezra point out that Jeremiah and Isaiah's prophecies, as well as Daniel's prophecies had yet to be fulfilled and were intended for the time of the Day of the Lord - a particularly Messianic Metaphor/idiom.

Rufus - you have no clue about properly using Biblical Hermeneutics, as evidenced by your statements denying these Hebrew idioms.

As for Apocalyptic literature being "poetic" - the main function of Hebrew poetry was repetition to drive home a point, not simply to be artistic. Hebrew poetry was not about phonetic rhyme of sounds.

Your comments indicate a narrow, very biased interpretation based upon erroneous presuppositions which are contradicted by the use of the Messianic idioms.

[Ephesians2-8]

The city sits on 7 mountains or hills and controls 7 kings..

and Babylon had been the code name for Rome since the time of the apostles..

1Pe 5:13 She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.

1Pe 5:14 Salute one another with a kiss of love. Peace be unto you all that are in Christ.

So Babylon has to be Rome..

You might want to reconsider that conclusion if you'd read the information posted in the links I gave in my earlier post. If you really follow up on what that author wrote, it will likely 'blow your mind."- It did that to me and to everyone else I've passed the book around to.

The author goes into great scholastic detail in regards to Rev 17:9 and proves that the verse does not in any way refer to Rome and 7 hills. He's not alone. There are several Seminary professors who've written on this same problem involving Rev 17:9.

The Links I gave also note that the woman is the chief goddess of Babylon, Ishtar who held the title "Mother of the Harlots" given her by her worshipers as a title of great holiness. Her priestesses were called "holy harlots" and perpetual virgins who were pure, holy and sinless and they functioned to take away the worshipers sins during a religious sexual rite of intercourse which purified the worshiper and he or she gave a gold or silver coin in the temple collection box as a thanksgiving offering. Ishtar's mystery religion then invented the idea of prostitution as a religious means of salvation and it also invented the idea of money - gold/silver coins and banking and loans at interest. It also involved special sex rites with the King as well as merchants travelling through Babylonia. Hence all the references in Revelation 17/18 to the woman and the kings and merchants.

Hopefully, that will give you enough interest to follow up with your own investigations and research. So check out those publications - They're free... can't hurt.

So are you saying that New york is the BAbyon mentioned in Rev 17 or is it that BAbylon will be restored and destroyed again?

Actually, New York can't be the Babylon of the future, although a part of it - because Jeremiah notes specifically that Babylon is a nation - a super-power nation - with the goddess Ishtar being the guardian angel or spirit of that nation. We see precedence for this in Daniel chapter 10 where Gabriel comes to Daniel and explains that Gabriel had been dispatched with a message for Daniel from God, but that he, Gabriel had been "bush-whacked" or "ambushed" - the original Hebrew carries the concept of a military attack - by the "sar" of Persia - and the attack "pinned down" Gabriel for 21 days until the archangel Michael came and "unpinned" him so he could continue with his mission to give Daniel a message. Gabriel then gives the message and says to Daniel that he, Gabriel must now go and fight the "sar" who is coming - the "Sar of Greece." This indicates that not only is there angelic warfare, but certain angels are assigned as guardians and or manipulators of certain nations to influence and or manipulate human national leaders to do the will and or bidding of Satan. We see this again in Ephesians 6:12 where the various ranks of authority in the angelic realm are outlined -- one of which is the Greek term "Kosmo-krator" = world ruler and of a 'dark world.'

So that - Revelation 17 indicates the woman is the guarding demonic/angelic entity overseeing a future super-power nation code-named "Babylon." This angelic entity has a close association with the super-power nation. The angelic entity in Revelation 17 was the same one who guarded ancient Babylon - known as Ishtar or Inanna - the goddess of Liberty/Freedom and also known as "MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS."

Note that Washington, D.C. is her home base, so to speak - with her statue atop the US Capitol Dome and the founding fathers originally naming the US Capitol Building as "The Temple of the goddess of Liberty" - shortening it to "Temple of Liberty" with a statue of Baal standing guard at the entrance wearing a Roman centurian's armor outfit. Ishtar's brother, Utu, had a temple in Babylonian called "The White House." -- According to secular art historian, David Ovason -in his book "The Secret Architecture of Our Nation's Capital" - he indicates that the entire city of Washington, D.C. is an open air temple dedicated to this goddess because she is the guardian spirit of the nation. There are dozens of esoteric art pieces - horoscopes, astrological signals pointing to her - as Isis or Venus or Libertas or Aphrodite or Ishtar - all names for this singular spirit guardian. The city street grid is laid out so that it honors her on the first day of spring and first day of fall every year as Constitution Avenue lines up with her star "The Dog Star- Sirius" in the constellation Virgo - and the Obelisk - the Washington Monument aligns precisely with the sun on the Summer Solstice to precisely split the light of the sun of the sun-god Utu (brother of Ishtar) into equal thirds to provide occult enlightenment of which one third falls onto the Capitol building to enlighten the Legislative branch, another third onto the Supreme Court Bldg to enlighten the Judicial branch and another third onto the White House to enlighten the Executive branch of government. The obelisk being an occult device associated with both Egypt and Babylon and Isis and Ishtar (both one and the same entity).

Ancient Babylon does not match the descriptive prophecies for a future Babylon, because among other things, the land of ancient Babylonia and Babylon were promised as part of the Abrahamic covenant in the Millennial Kingdom. Future Babylon will be destroyed, uninhabited and at the bottom of the ocean as a sea bed... and thus if Iraq's Babylon was the future Babylon then it couldn't also fulfill God's promises to Abraham and the Messianic Kingdom which included Babylon and much of present day Iraq. That's just one of 60 reasons why Iraq and ancient Babylon cannot be the Babylon of Revelation 17/18.

[givennewname]

I have a new thread here for us. please give your strong opinions and beliefs. I have been reading Jeremiah 50-51 and does anyone think this could pertain to the United States??

Do you know that back in 1988 Saddam Huissein believed he was Nebuchadnezzar for our day brought back with a message??

How many of you remember his claims back then? I sure do! Where is America in this picture?

God bless, let's stay peaceful....Girl

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text.

Rufus

I went over this in a different thread regarding Jeremiah 30 and 31 but it seems that with your posting here the record again needs to be set straight.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 is replete with Hebrew Messianic Idioms referencing the fact that the oracle of Babylon is a reference to the time just before the Coming of Messiah to set up the Millennial Kingdom.

50: 2 -- "Declare ye among the nations" -- is a special Hebrew Messianic idiom...followed by a second one right after that...

50:2 -- "and publish" --

50:2 ---"set up a standard" --

These 3 idioms abbreviated as they are refer to one Messianic ordinance - the requirement that the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet and escort the Messiah through the Messianic gate into Jerusalem.

In order to accomplish this requirement, the Jews set up an elaborate signaling/communications system using "flagmen" set on the top of the hills surrounding Israel. These flagmen had special flags or banners (KJV - "standard") - There was a special flag or banner or "standard" that was reserved for the Messiah. When it was waved by a flag man, it meant, the Messiah had been spotted approaching Israel. The flagmen on adjacent hill tops would see the Messiah's banner being waved and they in turn would wave their own Messiah flag or banner to signal to the next hilltop post further down the chain that the Messiah was coming. This created a chain reaction across the entire flagpost network across Israel, so that the Tribal elders could be notified in advance and make haste for Jerusalem in order to greet and escort the Messiah into Jerusalem and thus fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

Now, the Prophets, in order to conserve on space and ink, abbreviated this concept into 'idioms" and often times further abbreviated the idioms... such as -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" - or in English = "The Banner of the Messiah" abbreviated to "the banner" or "waving of the banner" or in the KJV "Publish" as a totally abbreviated idiomatic reference to the above flag signalling system. Also, as part of that alert system. A Messianic shout would be given or "Delcared" --

So that in verse 2 we 3 distinct Messianic idioms indicating that the entire oracle is set in the time frame of the coming of the Messiah and the fact that we have triple repetition is indicative of the absoluteness of the time frame. In other words, God is making it crystal clear that what follows in the description will take place in the time frame of the coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic, Millennial Kingdom.

So right off the bat in Verse 2, after the announcment that chapter 50 was a prophecy concerning Babylon we have the triple Messianic idiom references -- indicating that what is to follow is describing events that will occur at the time of the Coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic Kingdom.

In verse 4 and again in verse 20, the same Hebrew Messianic idiom is repeated - "In those days and in that time"

In chapter 51: verse 12 " Set up the standard" - the abbreviation for "gevlai shel Meshiach" the specific Messianic idiom.

In Chapter 51: verse 27, "Set up the standtard" -- again the same abbreviated Hebrew Messianic idiom.

And yet one more Messianic idiom - in verse 52 -- "Behold the days come" -- the days of the Coming of Messiah.

Furthermore -- Isaiah also does that same thing with his oracle against Babylon...

Isaiah 13 - verse 2 = "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain" -- here again the Hebrew Messianic idiom - "gevlais shel Meshiach." and then he further states to confirm this Messianic idiom - "exalt the voice unto them".... "shake the hand" [greeting the Messiah] ..."that they may go into the "gates of the nobles" - a reference to the Tribal elders greeting the Messiah and escorting him through the gates into Jerusalem.

Verse 6 -- "For the Day of the Lord is near" -- another Messianic idiom without abbreviation... and note that day is "near" when Babylon is judged by a fiery judgment.

Verse 8 ... "as a woman in travail" -- again another Messianic reference - see also Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the same idiom.

Verse 9 "Bhold, the Day of the Lord" - again same Messianic reference.

Both Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of a future Babylon, a super-power nation with the character traits of ancient Babylon which shall be destroyed in a special Divine judgment just before the coming of Messiah.

Both prophets are writing about the same Babylon as found in Revelation 17 and 18. All of these prophecies speak to a single, solitary nation of the end-times before the Messianic Kingdom is established.

It should be stated that neither prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. Persia's conquest of Babylon occured without a shot being fired. The city was not destroyed at all, and was not burned with fire in one day, neither were her cities (plural) destroyed by fire and neither did Babylon or Babylonia sink forever beneath the ocean waves nor did the sea come up over her... Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Neither did she become like Sodom and Gomorrah, never to be inhabited again nor even found.

No scholar in their right mind, claims to think that Jeremiah and Isaiah's predictions were fulfilled according to the writtend descriptions of Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Two of the biggest problems in understanding the Old Testament prophets are the historical distance and the fact that the prophets wrote/spoke a large part of their work poetically. Because the vast majority of us are inexperienced or unpracticed in exegeting the prophets, this can lead to all kinds of wild theories and speculation that have no basis in fact.

Any interpretation of what the prophets were saying has to be grounded in an understanding of the Mosaic covenant, specifically the passages in Deuteronomy 4 and Deuteronomy 25-30, where Moses records the blessings, curses and penalties for keeping and breaking the covenant. The prophets' job was to remind Israel of who they were and who they belonged to; it was not to hide esoteric clues about the end of the world that were not to be understood until thousands of years later.

It is human nature to want to be in the know.However, God doesn't operate that way. He doesn't hide things in the text for thousands of years and then suddenly reveal them to you and me. None of the Bible was written personally to anyone in our day. That's not to say we can't find direction and meaning in the scripture. But, because we, in our time, want to see something new and exciting and fresh and different, because we want so desperately to be taken seriously as God's children, the line between the inspired writers and the illumined readers gets blurred and we wind up spending a disproportionate amount of time parsing out dubious meanings from obscure passages that have nothing to do with what we want them to say. We want this answer from this passage now. I'm afraid that what passes for scholarship and prophetic utterance, especially in charismatic circles, is simply nothing more than a grand exercise in self-deception. The most extreme example that I can think of is the post that was here some months ago about how the Bible predicted the events of 9/11/2001.

To Rufus,

You didn't bother to address the numerous Messianic idioms which these prophets used - Isaiah and Jeremiah indicating that the particular passages in question were intended for a far future time - when the conquering Messiah would come.

Just what does "Day of the Lord" refer to if not the time of the coming of Messiah??????????

Just what does the term "Banner of the Messiah" -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" and its associated abbreviations refer to if not to the time of the coming of Messiah???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

There are 3 separate abbreviated variations of that idiom in Jeremiah 50:2 which kicks off The Oracle of Babylon's future judgment - the description of which - was never ever fulfilled - not even close ... in 539 B.C. by Cyrus.

Even Rabbinical sources at the time of Ezra point out that Jeremiah and Isaiah's prophecies, as well as Daniel's prophecies had yet to be fulfilled and were intended for the time of the Day of the Lord - a particularly Messianic Metaphor/idiom.

Rufus - you have no clue about properly using Biblical Hermeneutics, as evidenced by your statements denying these Hebrew idioms.

As for Apocalyptic literature being "poetic" - the main function of Hebrew poetry was repetition to drive home a point, not simply to be artistic. Hebrew poetry was not about phonetic rhyme of sounds.

Your comments indicate a narrow, very biased interpretation based upon erroneous presuppositions which are contradicted by the use of the Messianic idioms.

Actually, I never addressed the Messianic references at all. There is no doubt that by the time this was written, Israel was beginning to look for a deliverer from God. What's open to question is how developed the idea of the Messiah was at the time Jeremiah was writing. Be that as it may, the answer to the OP is right there in Jeremiah 50:1 - "The word that the LORD spoke concerning Babylon, the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:"

Jeremiah himself tells us who he is talking about. Trying to find a hidden meaning where none exists is an exercise in futility.

Oh dear brother Rufus,

how can you say such things// It is well known that when the OT prophets spoke, their prophecies have double or triple fulfillment and may be directed to others apart from the person whom the prophet is directing the prophecy. The prophet has a telescopic view of events, sometimes events of the first coming is superimposed on events of the second coming. Its like 3 hills superimposed on each other, the prophet views one event instead of three.

Let me just give one example although there are many in the OT. the Lord Jesus was handed the scroll of Isaiah, he quoted half the verse and said that today the scripture is fulfilled. Why did the Lord Jesus not quote the verse fully? He stopped in the Middle of Isaiah 61:2 saying he has fulfilled it in his coming? the answer is from the middle of verse 2 onwards, The day of the Lord's vengeance refer to his second coming, hence have not been fulfilled..

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, To-day hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the words of grace which proceeded out of his mouth: and they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isa 61:2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified.

Another example in Zechariah's prophecy:

Zec 9:8 And I will encamp about my house against the army, that none pass through or return; and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Verse 8 refers to a burden of damascus at the end time, verse 9 suddenly goes back to the first coming of the Lord and was fulfilled, verse 10 swings back to the end time millennial kingdom again.. how do we know verse 10 refer to the end time? it says that his dominion is from sea to sea.. The lord had never been given a dominion that stretches from sea to sea ...yet until his millennial kingdom comes.

Another example in Isaiah:

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou abhorrest shall be forsaken.

Double fulfillement in the sense that the sign unto Ahaz is that one of the women in his harem will concieve an child called Immanuel and before he is weans, the enemies coming against Ahaz will be defeated.. the second fulfillment is in our Lord..

Another eg in Ezekiel:

This prophecy is directed against the king of Tyre but God was also speaking to the power behind the King of Tyre who is Satan. The king of Tyre as a human cannot fit into the prophecy but yet the prophecy is directed to him..

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.

Eze 28:14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.

Eze 28:16 By the abundance of thy traffic they filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore have I cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God; and I have destroyed thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:17 Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I have cast thee to the ground; I have laid thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Eze 28:18 By the multitude of thine iniquities, in the unrighteousness of thy traffic, thou hast profaned thy sanctuaries; therefore have I brought forth a fire from the midst of thee; it hath devoured thee, and I have turned thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt nevermore have any being.

[givennewname]

Actually, I never addressed the Messianic references at all. There is no doubt that by the time this was written, Israel was beginning to look for a deliverer from God. What's open to question is how developed the idea of the Messiah was at the time Jeremiah was writing. Be that as it may, the answer to the OP is right there in Jeremiah 50:1 - "The word that the LORD spoke concerning Babylon, the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:"

Jeremiah himself tells us who he is talking about. Trying to find a hidden meaning where none exists is an exercise in futility.

I dunno how you can say this statement:There is no doubt that by the time this was written, Israel was beginning to look for a deliverer from God. What's open to question is how developed the idea of the Messiah was at the time Jeremiah was writing. . The Jews were introduced to the messiah concept all through the five book of Moses starting from this first messianic prophecy: Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The Lord himself said that Moses spoke of him, so how can you maintain that the Jews were just begining to look for a deliverer from God?

Trying to find a hidden meaning where none exists is an exercise in futility

I can't believe you said that............