Ephesians2-8

The point God was making was not for men to make themselves appear feminine. In ancient times male prostitution was an act of worship to pagan gods and men who served in that capacity who were homosexual would make themselves appear femine to attract and seduce other male worshippers. There was a much bigger picture than just wearing a type of garment. Even in biblical times women and men wore "breeches" under their robes. Breeches were similar o pants but would keep one's privates well hidden if the wind caught your robe the wrong way. Honestly, this is why I hate religion. Shiloh -- The specific religion was Babylonian, the mystery religion of the goddess Ishtar who had both male and female priestesses serve her temple as harlots/whores who they considered to be holy and pure, and who during a religious sex rite of worship with a worshiper (either male or female) would become 'one with the goddess' and thus the goddess became 'one with the worshipper' in order for the worshipper's sins to be forgiven and purified by sexual secretions. Ishtar's religion invented homosexuality as a means of attaining salvation as also heterosexual union as well... holy sex -- sex by salvation and or salvation by 'works.' Afterwords, the worshipper would give a thanksgiving offering by putting a gold or silver coin or coins into the temple's collection box before leaving. Ishtar's temple invented the concept of money, banking on loans for interest. Her harlot-whore priestesses and the thanksgiving offering was the very first instance of prostitution. Prostitution as we know it today, did not exist in ancient Babylon nor any other of the ancient cultures. There was no need for it -- the Ishtar Temple took care of that problem. The prohibitions about men dressing feminine in scripture was to not be mistaken for being an Ishtar devotee. The abomination was Ishtar's religion not a matter of dress, per se for either gender, man or woman. Ditto for the idea of fornication and adultery -- the abominations were when associated with the Ishtar religion. Oh, Shiloh- you're in good company about hating religion -- God also hates religion - See Isaiah 64 6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;" The Hebrew word "Filthy Rags" is the word for used, smells-to-high-heaven" menstrual cloth -- and this is what God thinks of our righteousnesses or our good deeds, or our religious deeds. Imagine what he thinks of our sins. Yup, God hates religion and religion is defined as anything that requires us to 'act a certain way, be a certain way' and by what we do, gain brownie points with God. That is religion. And that negates grace, evertime, as Paul so eloquently stated in Romans and later in Galatians. I really enjoyed reading your reply. Thanks for educating me. Willow325 Thank you - glad to be of help

There are skilled linguists and Hebrew scholars who will debate you on the term "rosh" - as a term meaning a rank of title as in "general" or "admiral" or in this case "Chief prince" or implied "chief of princes." In other words, the term does not refer to a geographical location. Also this understanding makes greater sense, logically from the grammatical perspective. The other often misapplied terms of "meshech" and "tubal" being referenced to Moscow and Tobalsk are also an even greater linguistical stretch. According to most anthropologists and archaeologists, Meschech and Tubal were located in Turkey. To claim that it must be Russia - because Russia is supplying Syria and Iran weapons -- well, So is the USA. In fact, the USA has heavily supplied Turkey and the better part of the Iranian air force is made up of US jet fighters - F-14's and F-4 Phantoms not to forget US tanks and a British destroyer as I recall. Much of Iran's weaponry in missiles and ground components coming from either China or North Korea. Under your logic - that should make them also equal candidates, not to forget the USA. Prior to 1945, most prophecy scholars believed that Magog and Meschech, Tubal, etc were Turkey. Russia or the Soviet Union was not even considered a possibility. The idea that Gomer is Germany is also a reallllll stretch linguistically also. Again, Gomer originally falls back to a portion of Turkey and Armenia. I'm not dogmatically opposed to the idea of Russia as being in on this, but the claims cited for Russia as Magog are IMHO, very , very weak.

So are you saying that New york is the BAbyon mentioned in Rev 17 or is it that BAbylon will be restored and destroyed again? Actually, New York can't be the Babylon of the future, although a part of it - because Jeremiah notes specifically that Babylon is a nation - a super-power nation - with the goddess Ishtar being the guardian angel or spirit of that nation. We see precedence for this in Daniel chapter 10 where Gabriel comes to Daniel and explains that Gabriel had been dispatched with a message for Daniel from God, but that he, Gabriel had been "bush-whacked" or "ambushed" - the original Hebrew carries the concept of a military attack - by the "sar" of Persia - and the attack "pinned down" Gabriel for 21 days until the archangel Michael came and "unpinned" him so he could continue with his mission to give Daniel a message. Gabriel then gives the message and says to Daniel that he, Gabriel must now go and fight the "sar" who is coming - the "Sar of Greece." This indicates that not only is there angelic warfare, but certain angels are assigned as guardians and or manipulators of certain nations to influence and or manipulate human national leaders to do the will and or bidding of Satan. We see this again in Ephesians 6:12 where the various ranks of authority in the angelic realm are outlined -- one of which is the Greek term "Kosmo-krator" = world ruler and of a 'dark world.' So that - Revelation 17 indicates the woman is the guarding demonic/angelic entity overseeing a future super-power nation code-named "Babylon." This angelic entity has a close association with the super-power nation. The angelic entity in Revelation 17 was the same one who guarded ancient Babylon - known as Ishtar or Inanna - the goddess of Liberty/Freedom and also known as "MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS." Note that Washington, D.C. is her home base, so to speak - with her statue atop the US Capitol Dome and the founding fathers originally naming the US Capitol Building as "The Temple of the goddess of Liberty" - shortening it to "Temple of Liberty" with a statue of Baal standing guard at the entrance wearing a Roman centurian's armor outfit. Ishtar's brother, Utu, had a temple in Babylonian called "The White House." -- According to secular art historian, David Ovason -in his book "The Secret Architecture of Our Nation's Capital" - he indicates that the entire city of Washington, D.C. is an open air temple dedicated to this goddess because she is the guardian spirit of the nation. There are dozens of esoteric art pieces - horoscopes, astrological signals pointing to her - as Isis or Venus or Libertas or Aphrodite or Ishtar - all names for this singular spirit guardian. The city street grid is laid out so that it honors her on the first day of spring and first day of fall every year as Constitution Avenue lines up with her star "The Dog Star- Sirius" in the constellation Virgo - and the Obelisk - the Washington Monument aligns precisely with the sun on the Summer Solstice to precisely split the light of the sun of the sun-god Utu (brother of Ishtar) into equal thirds to provide occult enlightenment of which one third falls onto the Capitol building to enlighten the Legislative branch, another third onto the Supreme Court Bldg to enlighten the Judicial branch and another third onto the White House to enlighten the Executive branch of government. The obelisk being an occult device associated with both Egypt and Babylon and Isis and Ishtar (both one and the same entity). Ancient Babylon does not match the descriptive prophecies for a future Babylon, because among other things, the land of ancient Babylonia and Babylon were promised as part of the Abrahamic covenant in the Millennial Kingdom. Future Babylon will be destroyed, uninhabited and at the bottom of the ocean as a sea bed... and thus if Iraq's Babylon was the future Babylon then it couldn't also fulfill God's promises to Abraham and the Messianic Kingdom which included Babylon and much of present day Iraq. That's just one of 60 reasons why Iraq and ancient Babylon cannot be the Babylon of Revelation 17/18.

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text. Rufus I went over this in a different thread regarding Jeremiah 30 and 31 but it seems that with your posting here the record again needs to be set straight. Jeremiah 50 and 51 is replete with Hebrew Messianic Idioms referencing the fact that the oracle of Babylon is a reference to the time just before the Coming of Messiah to set up the Millennial Kingdom. 50: 2 -- "Declare ye among the nations" -- is a special Hebrew Messianic idiom...followed by a second one right after that... 50:2 -- "and publish" -- 50:2 ---"set up a standard" -- These 3 idioms abbreviated as they are refer to one Messianic ordinance - the requirement that the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet and escort the Messiah through the Messianic gate into Jerusalem. In order to accomplish this requirement, the Jews set up an elaborate signaling/communications system using "flagmen" set on the top of the hills surrounding Israel. These flagmen had special flags or banners (KJV - "standard") - There was a special flag or banner or "standard" that was reserved for the Messiah. When it was waved by a flag man, it meant, the Messiah had been spotted approaching Israel. The flagmen on adjacent hill tops would see the Messiah's banner being waved and they in turn would wave their own Messiah flag or banner to signal to the next hilltop post further down the chain that the Messiah was coming. This created a chain reaction across the entire flagpost network across Israel, so that the Tribal elders could be notified in advance and make haste for Jerusalem in order to greet and escort the Messiah into Jerusalem and thus fulfill the Messianic prophecies. Now, the Prophets, in order to conserve on space and ink, abbreviated this concept into 'idioms" and often times further abbreviated the idioms... such as -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" - or in English = "The Banner of the Messiah" abbreviated to "the banner" or "waving of the banner" or in the KJV "Publish" as a totally abbreviated idiomatic reference to the above flag signalling system. Also, as part of that alert system. A Messianic shout would be given or "Delcared" -- So that in verse 2 we 3 distinct Messianic idioms indicating that the entire oracle is set in the time frame of the coming of the Messiah and the fact that we have triple repetition is indicative of the absoluteness of the time frame. In other words, God is making it crystal clear that what follows in the description will take place in the time frame of the coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic, Millennial Kingdom. So right off the bat in Verse 2, after the announcment that chapter 50 was a prophecy concerning Babylon we have the triple Messianic idiom references -- indicating that what is to follow is describing events that will occur at the time of the Coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic Kingdom. In verse 4 and again in verse 20, the same Hebrew Messianic idiom is repeated - "In those days and in that time" In chapter 51: verse 12 " Set up the standard" - the abbreviation for "gevlai shel Meshiach" the specific Messianic idiom. In Chapter 51: verse 27, "Set up the standtard" -- again the same abbreviated Hebrew Messianic idiom. And yet one more Messianic idiom - in verse 52 -- "Behold the days come" -- the days of the Coming of Messiah. Furthermore -- Isaiah also does that same thing with his oracle against Babylon... Isaiah 13 - verse 2 = "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain" -- here again the Hebrew Messianic idiom - "gevlais shel Meshiach." and then he further states to confirm this Messianic idiom - "exalt the voice unto them".... "shake the hand" [greeting the Messiah] ..."that they may go into the "gates of the nobles" - a reference to the Tribal elders greeting the Messiah and escorting him through the gates into Jerusalem. Verse 6 -- "For the Day of the Lord is near" -- another Messianic idiom without abbreviation... and note that day is "near" when Babylon is judged by a fiery judgment. Verse 8 ... "as a woman in travail" -- again another Messianic reference - see also Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the same idiom. Verse 9 "Bhold, the Day of the Lord" - again same Messianic reference. Both Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of a future Babylon, a super-power nation with the character traits of ancient Babylon which shall be destroyed in a special Divine judgment just before the coming of Messiah. Both prophets are writing about the same Babylon as found in Revelation 17 and 18. All of these prophecies speak to a single, solitary nation of the end-times before the Messianic Kingdom is established. It should be stated that neither prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. Persia's conquest of Babylon occured without a shot being fired. The city was not destroyed at all, and was not burned with fire in one day, neither were her cities (plural) destroyed by fire and neither did Babylon or Babylonia sink forever beneath the ocean waves nor did the sea come up over her... Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Neither did she become like Sodom and Gomorrah, never to be inhabited again nor even found. No scholar in their right mind, claims to think that Jeremiah and Isaiah's predictions were fulfilled according to the writtend descriptions of Jeremiah and Isaiah. Two of the biggest problems in understanding the Old Testament prophets are the historical distance and the fact that the prophets wrote/spoke a large part of their work poetically. Because the vast majority of us are inexperienced or unpracticed in exegeting the prophets, this can lead to all kinds of wild theories and speculation that have no basis in fact. Any interpretation of what the prophets were saying has to be grounded in an understanding of the Mosaic covenant, specifically the passages in Deuteronomy 4 and Deuteronomy 25-30, where Moses records the blessings, curses and penalties for keeping and breaking the covenant. The prophets' job was to remind Israel of who they were and who they belonged to; it was not to hide esoteric clues about the end of the world that were not to be understood until thousands of years later. It is human nature to want to be in the know.However, God doesn't operate that way. He doesn't hide things in the text for thousands of years and then suddenly reveal them to you and me. None of the Bible was written personally to anyone in our day. That's not to say we can't find direction and meaning in the scripture. But, because we, in our time, want to see something new and exciting and fresh and different, because we want so desperately to be taken seriously as God's children, the line between the inspired writers and the illumined readers gets blurred and we wind up spending a disproportionate amount of time parsing out dubious meanings from obscure passages that have nothing to do with what we want them to say. We want this answer from this passage now. I'm afraid that what passes for scholarship and prophetic utterance, especially in charismatic circles, is simply nothing more than a grand exercise in self-deception. The most extreme example that I can think of is the post that was here some months ago about how the Bible predicted the events of 9/11/2001. To Rufus, You didn't bother to address the numerous Messianic idioms which these prophets used - Isaiah and Jeremiah indicating that the particular passages in question were intended for a far future time - when the conquering Messiah would come. Just what does "Day of the Lord" refer to if not the time of the coming of Messiah?????????? Just what does the term "Banner of the Messiah" -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" and its associated abbreviations refer to if not to the time of the coming of Messiah??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? There are 3 separate abbreviated variations of that idiom in Jeremiah 50:2 which kicks off The Oracle of Babylon's future judgment - the description of which - was never ever fulfilled - not even close ... in 539 B.C. by Cyrus. Even Rabbinical sources at the time of Ezra point out that Jeremiah and Isaiah's prophecies, as well as Daniel's prophecies had yet to be fulfilled and were intended for the time of the Day of the Lord - a particularly Messianic Metaphor/idiom. Rufus - you have no clue about properly using Biblical Hermeneutics, as evidenced by your statements denying these Hebrew idioms. As for Apocalyptic literature being "poetic" - the main function of Hebrew poetry was repetition to drive home a point, not simply to be artistic. Hebrew poetry was not about phonetic rhyme of sounds. Your comments indicate a narrow, very biased interpretation based upon erroneous presuppositions which are contradicted by the use of the Messianic idioms.

The city sits on 7 mountains or hills and controls 7 kings.. and Babylon had been the code name for Rome since the time of the apostles.. 1Pe 5:13 She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son. 1Pe 5:14 Salute one another with a kiss of love. Peace be unto you all that are in Christ. So Babylon has to be Rome..

There are a few books published advocating the notion that this Babylon of prophecy is the United States. The most prominent book out there is - "America, The Babylon" - volumes 1 and 2 - about 600 pages - by R.A. Coombes. Dr. Mark Hitchcock, a professor at Dallas Seminary noted in his book "Is America in Bible Prophecy" notes that Coombes' work on the subject is the most definitive work to date advocating the theory that America is the Babylon of prophecy. Coombes' work has been hailed by several conservative Seminary professors, such as Dr. Fred Fogle and Dr. John Stohl of Grace Theological Seminary. Coombes' work is not alone - Peter Goodgame in "Red Moon Rising" also goes to some length on the subject, and there are other, lesser works out there - but none as scholarly nor as extensive as "America, The Babylon." Coombes' also has written other short books on the Babylon subject: "The Mystery Babylon Debate Handbook" "Mystery Babylon: Myths & Errors of Interpretation" Both of the above are FREE E-book downloads you can get by going to this link: http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=67 "America, The Babylon" - the book website is here: http://americathebabylon.com/ Peter Goodgame's book - Red Moon Rising is also good - you can get more details on it at http://www.redmoonrising.com/ Oh, Coombes' books - "America, The Babylon" Volume 1 goes heavily into the Hebrew and Greek textual analysis and includes grammatical analysis as well as lexical analysis and includes Strong's code number links to readers can verify his assertions for themselves. Volume 2 is primarily empirical proofs of America's Babylonian connections with hundreds of internet webpage links, some of which should raise the hair on the back of your neck. Also he includes chapters on why Babylon cannot be the Roman Catholic Church or Rome and another on why Iraq or ancient Babylon cannot be the future Babylon. He also notes in another chapter all the reasons why Babylon cannot be New York City or any other city and why it must be a nation - based upon the original Greek texts plus the descriptions of Isaiah, Jeremiah and John. All of this is why many who've read this book consider it to be "the definitive work" on the subject.

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text. Rufus I went over this in a different thread regarding Jeremiah 30 and 31 but it seems that with your posting here the record again needs to be set straight. Jeremiah 50 and 51 is replete with Hebrew Messianic Idioms referencing the fact that the oracle of Babylon is a reference to the time just before the Coming of Messiah to set up the Millennial Kingdom. 50: 2 -- "Declare ye among the nations" -- is a special Hebrew Messianic idiom...followed by a second one right after that... 50:2 -- "and publish" -- 50:2 ---"set up a standard" -- These 3 idioms abbreviated as they are refer to one Messianic ordinance - the requirement that the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet and escort the Messiah through the Messianic gate into Jerusalem. In order to accomplish this requirement, the Jews set up an elaborate signaling/communications system using "flagmen" set on the top of the hills surrounding Israel. These flagmen had special flags or banners (KJV - "standard") - There was a special flag or banner or "standard" that was reserved for the Messiah. When it was waved by a flag man, it meant, the Messiah had been spotted approaching Israel. The flagmen on adjacent hill tops would see the Messiah's banner being waved and they in turn would wave their own Messiah flag or banner to signal to the next hilltop post further down the chain that the Messiah was coming. This created a chain reaction across the entire flagpost network across Israel, so that the Tribal elders could be notified in advance and make haste for Jerusalem in order to greet and escort the Messiah into Jerusalem and thus fulfill the Messianic prophecies. Now, the Prophets, in order to conserve on space and ink, abbreviated this concept into 'idioms" and often times further abbreviated the idioms... such as -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" - or in English = "The Banner of the Messiah" abbreviated to "the banner" or "waving of the banner" or in the KJV "Publish" as a totally abbreviated idiomatic reference to the above flag signalling system. Also, as part of that alert system. A Messianic shout would be given or "Delcared" -- So that in verse 2 we 3 distinct Messianic idioms indicating that the entire oracle is set in the time frame of the coming of the Messiah and the fact that we have triple repetition is indicative of the absoluteness of the time frame. In other words, God is making it crystal clear that what follows in the description will take place in the time frame of the coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic, Millennial Kingdom. So right off the bat in Verse 2, after the announcment that chapter 50 was a prophecy concerning Babylon we have the triple Messianic idiom references -- indicating that what is to follow is describing events that will occur at the time of the Coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic Kingdom. In verse 4 and again in verse 20, the same Hebrew Messianic idiom is repeated - "In those days and in that time" In chapter 51: verse 12 " Set up the standard" - the abbreviation for "gevlai shel Meshiach" the specific Messianic idiom. In Chapter 51: verse 27, "Set up the standtard" -- again the same abbreviated Hebrew Messianic idiom. And yet one more Messianic idiom - in verse 52 -- "Behold the days come" -- the days of the Coming of Messiah. Furthermore -- Isaiah also does that same thing with his oracle against Babylon... Isaiah 13 - verse 2 = "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain" -- here again the Hebrew Messianic idiom - "gevlais shel Meshiach." and then he further states to confirm this Messianic idiom - "exalt the voice unto them".... "shake the hand" [greeting the Messiah] ..."that they may go into the "gates of the nobles" - a reference to the Tribal elders greeting the Messiah and escorting him through the gates into Jerusalem. Verse 6 -- "For the Day of the Lord is near" -- another Messianic idiom without abbreviation... and note that day is "near" when Babylon is judged by a fiery judgment. Verse 8 ... "as a woman in travail" -- again another Messianic reference - see also Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the same idiom. Verse 9 "Bhold, the Day of the Lord" - again same Messianic reference. Both Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of a future Babylon, a super-power nation with the character traits of ancient Babylon which shall be destroyed in a special Divine judgment just before the coming of Messiah. Both prophets are writing about the same Babylon as found in Revelation 17 and 18. All of these prophecies speak to a single, solitary nation of the end-times before the Messianic Kingdom is established. It should be stated that neither prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. Persia's conquest of Babylon occured without a shot being fired. The city was not destroyed at all, and was not burned with fire in one day, neither were her cities (plural) destroyed by fire and neither did Babylon or Babylonia sink forever beneath the ocean waves nor did the sea come up over her... Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Neither did she become like Sodom and Gomorrah, never to be inhabited again nor even found. No scholar in their right mind, claims to think that Jeremiah and Isaiah's predictions were fulfilled according to the writtend descriptions of Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Anyone else here ever notice how controversial the subject of Mystery Babylon is on discussion forums? Ever notice how often people make false statements and misrepresent the facts on that subject? I just came across a very good commentary on common errors and misunderstandings concerning the controversial subject of "Mystery Babylon." It is a Free E-book entitled "Mystery Babylon: Myths and Errors of Interpetation" by R.A. Coombes. He also has another Free E-book for download entitled "The Mystery Babylon Debate Handbook" which looks at all the various identity theories for the subject of Mystery Babylon and points out the strengths and weaknesses of each theory. I particularly find interesting the fact that one error is in referring to the subject as "Mystery Babylon" as opposed to merely Babylon... the author makes a point of noting why the term "Mystery Babylon" is wrong and provides extensive grammatical documentation to back it up. Another one I find interesting is that Dave Hunt and others refer to the woman of Revelation 17 as riding the beast, but as Coombes' points out, nowhere in scripture does it say the woman "rides" the beast or that the beast is even moving. Instead she is simply "sitting" on the beast. It might seem like a fine point of hair splitting but it may have enormous implications in the interpretation. So much of what this guy writes seems to be eye-popping and perhaps unbelievable at first, but he backs up everything with extensive documentation especially on the subject of Babylon. Also his FREE E-book commentaries on First and Second Thessalonians are an equally a great resource for Bible studies. Here is a link to the page for the free e-book downloads and no, there is no catch they're totally free. http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=67 You may also want to catch his entire Prophecy News and Studies website too - http://www.aoreport.com Have you come across other myths and errors concerning the subject of "Mystery Babylon?" If so, take a moment to share.

I would heartily concur with you.

I agree. MAny times in the writings of the prophet, the term in that day or The day of the Lord or the day of the Lor'd vengence refer to the end times. However, an appeal to grammar does not justify making a quantum leap to the conclusion that Jeremiah, et. al. were making esoteric predictions about events that were to take place thousands of years in their future. Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. Their concern was enforcing the covenant among the people of their time. Rufus - the rules of hermeneutics require grammatical understanding and recognition whether the hermeneutical principles pertain to Biblical writings or in modern day contractual law. There is no, repeat NO quantum leap in Jeremiah 30:7-8 or any of the other verses in that chapter. The prophets used Hebrew Messianic idioms extensively. You apparently have no understanding of the Mishnah or the Midrash nor the long traditional of rebbinical analysis of the prophet's writings or you'd know better than to make such a statement as you've made. Furthermore ... Jeremiah 30:2 ... Jeremiah is told to write down what God had spoken to him. Jeremiah did not pick and choose only ideas that pertained to the near future. In fact, Jeremiah chose nothing of his own. He wrote down what he was told by God to write down. Now as for proving statements - prove your statement - "Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. " Prove that statement- Prove it. I want factual documentation to validate your point. The fact of the matter is that you cannot because there can be no such documentation. You've jumped to conclusions based on erroneous presuppositions and misrepresentations of the facts. The facts are - the text is littered with Messianic idioms and statements that pertain to the time of the coming of Messiah, not mere decades. Rufus - why do I get the sense that you are nothing but a troll who takes great delight in debating and arguing for the sole purpose and delight of debating and arguing. Personally, I see no valid reason to continue discussing the matter with someone who clearly can not accept or understand valid hermeneutical principles.

Dear Brother, I need to celar up a point about the nature of prophecy esp those that foretell the fture like the book of Daniel ect.. Isn't it the nature of such prophecy that the person would not be able to understand the prophecy until the prophecy is fullfilled? For example Daniel foretold the kingdoms of Alexander well before the man came unto the scene of history, so theoretically the people at Daniel's time would have a lot of difficulty understanding what Daniel said.. Yes, you make an excellent point. Aside perhaps from Jonah, I'm hard pressed to think of any of the OT prophets who really understood their long-range prophecies, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel or Ezekiel in regards to their prophecies concerning the Day of the Lord time frame.

Rufus, To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect. Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

To Rufus I already outlined my reasons in the prior responses. As noted previously, even John himself, from the texts indicates that he lacks full understanding of what he saw and I pointed this out from the text. If John, didn't understand it all, then neither would his audience. Indeed, succeeding generations failed to come to terms with all that is written, in part because as the text itself notes, it is a "mystery" and this is especially true of the Babylon issue. The early church fathers also had a difficult time in understanding and interpreting John's Revelation. This is part of the reason why some questioned it's canonicity I would again encourage you to read the Charlesworth commentary. Enough said.

The point God was making was not for men to make themselves appear feminine. In ancient times male prostitution was an act of worship to pagan gods and men who served in that capacity who were homosexual would make themselves appear femine to attract and seduce other male worshippers. There was a much bigger picture than just wearing a type of garment. Even in biblical times women and men wore "breeches" under their robes. Breeches were similar o pants but would keep one's privates well hidden if the wind caught your robe the wrong way. Honestly, this is why I hate religion. Shiloh -- The specific religion was Babylonian, the mystery religion of the goddess Ishtar who had both male and female priestesses serve her temple as harlots/whores who they considered to be holy and pure, and who during a religious sex rite of worship with a worshiper (either male or female) would become 'one with the goddess' and thus the goddess became 'one with the worshipper' in order for the worshipper's sins to be forgiven and purified by sexual secretions. Ishtar's religion invented homosexuality as a means of attaining salvation as also heterosexual union as well... holy sex -- sex by salvation and or salvation by 'works.' Afterwords, the worshipper would give a thanksgiving offering by putting a gold or silver coin or coins into the temple's collection box before leaving. Ishtar's temple invented the concept of money, banking on loans for interest. Her harlot-whore priestesses and the thanksgiving offering was the very first instance of prostitution. Prostitution as we know it today, did not exist in ancient Babylon nor any other of the ancient cultures. There was no need for it -- the Ishtar Temple took care of that problem. The prohibitions about men dressing feminine in scripture was to not be mistaken for being an Ishtar devotee. The abomination was Ishtar's religion not a matter of dress, per se for either gender, man or woman. Ditto for the idea of fornication and adultery -- the abominations were when associated with the Ishtar religion. Oh, Shiloh- you're in good company about hating religion -- God also hates religion - See Isaiah 64 6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;" The Hebrew word "Filthy Rags" is the word for used, smells-to-high-heaven" menstrual cloth -- and this is what God thinks of our righteousnesses or our good deeds, or our religious deeds. Imagine what he thinks of our sins. Yup, God hates religion and religion is defined as anything that requires us to 'act a certain way, be a certain way' and by what we do, gain brownie points with God. That is religion. And that negates grace, evertime, as Paul so eloquently stated in Romans and later in Galatians.

Celt, You said: Nothing but men's theories. What we need more of are those willing to listen to God's simple Word and heed It instead of man... Allright then, you asked for it - you're going to get exactly God's Word, and His word is more than just Revelation 17 and 18 when it comes to the issue of a future "Babylon." Now let me show you the exact Greek term as underlined in the KJV above. My point is to negate your notion that "city" is the correct translation. Here is the exact Greek phrase in Greek letters. Let me give it to you in the raw, original pristine exact terms of the Greek Text, just as John wrote it, in regards to Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. και η γυνη ην ειδες εστιν η πολις η μεγαλη η εχουσα βασιλειαν επι των βασιλεων της γης Now let me narrow that verse down to just the key phrase: top line is the Greek, 2nd line is the English transliteration and the third line is the literal English word equivalent or as close as we can get. η πολις η μεγαλη hay polis hay megala the city the super-power In the Greek language and usage, a city can be used for just the city. Often times though, when combined with a superlative adjective, like "hey megala" - the adjective = η μεγαλη - when used in conjunction with = η πολις - refers to the empire or nation which the city resides in. Often times the capital city was used to refer to a nation. So just because the name "Carthage" was used didn't necessarily mean it referred to the empire of Carthage. Ditto for Athens, ditto for Rome or Babylon. HOWEVER -- when you add "η μεγαλη" to the term - that changes everything in terms of how the Greek-speaking world in the first century used the term. It generally referred to the nation or the empire itself. Furthermore - the term -- η μεγαλη = hay megala is the word we use in English sometimes as "Mega" and or "Super" IF you doubt me - check out Strong's Concordance and the Greek-English dictionary in the back. Look for code #3173 and the root word is "megas" - Now Strong's dictionary definitions are very skinny, sparse and very generic. Often times many words are multi-faceted in meaning. Strong's doesn't really elaborate much on such words. To get the elaborate definitions, you need to go to a full-blown "Lexicon"- and in this case, probably the best Lexicon with a definition on this word is Joseph Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. You'll find his definition on Page 394, column 2 by the Strong's Code # 3173. Thayer's definition runs a total of just over 2 columns or just over a full page of definition, notes and citations where the term's definitions were used and how. B-A-G-D's Greek-English Lexicon also provides a lengthy definition, as does Liddell & Scott which is a 2-volume dictionary and considered "THE" definitive dictionary for Greek to English. The word Mega - means "Super" in power, size, scope when applied to something like a city and it conveys the idea of a nation by way of using its capital city or chief city. So if you wanted to refer to the nation of Japan in the first century and if Tokyo was its capital or chief city, you might say "Tokyo, the polis the mega -- or Tokyo, the Great - if following the KJV translation model. Now, in case your rebellious mind refuses to accept the above facts... let's move to another of God's prophecy passages dealing with this 'future Babylon' because you see, Revelation 17 and 18 is less than half of God's written words about a future Babylon, super-power nation that exists at the time of the Day of the Lord and the 2nd Coming. Jeremiah 50 and 51 predict the demise of "mystery" Babylon only the term "mystery" is NOT used, just Babylon. Jeremiah is not the only prophet to give predictions on Babylon either. Isaiah in chapters 13, 14, and 47 also give parallel information that correlates to Revelation. However, for purposes pertaining to city versus nation -- let's look at Jeremiah Jeremiah 51:43 states: "Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth any son of man pass thereby" This verse describes God's judgment upon Babylon's cities... and on her land... Let's look also at Jeremiah 50:32 speaking of the King of Babylon, God says...and I quote: "And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him." Notice the words -- "in his cities" indicating again more than just the city of Babylon but rather the whole nation. Still not enough for you?????? Try Jeremiah 50:16a - a reference to her farmers and farms "Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth the sickle in the time of harvest:" I'll bet your still so stubborn that that is not good enough for you. Allright, now for the icing on the cake. "Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert." Key phrase here for our purposes -- "Hindermost of the nations" with hindermost being an archaic English word for "last" The phrase is indicating that Babylon is the Last of the nations -- not a city of the nations but a nation among the nations, the last of the nations. Do you now get the idea that Babylon of future prophecy is a nation? NOOOOOO???? Well try this on for size. Jeremiah 51:53 and tell me if any city on Earth has this... "Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers come unto her, saith the LORD." This verse indicates Babylon's military has outer space capabilities... "up to heaven" is a Hebrew word for the part of heaven that is close to earth but has no air... or in our modern term - Outer Space...or in Earth's orbit. Here Babylon has outer space military capabilities... NOW -- you name for me --- any city in the world - that has its own military and its own outer space military program.... Hmmm. Name one city. You can't. There are none. In fact, no city has its own army. Only nations have armies.... Sooooooooo - you're only hope here to defend yourself is to negate Jeremiah's chapters 50 and 51 as being the same Babylon as Revelation 17 and 18. You're only hope is to claim that these prophecies were fulfilled. Right??? Good try, but Wrong. Jeremiah 50 and 51 are laced with Messianic Hebrew idioms, indicating that the entire description of events takes place at the time of the coming of Messiah - in the Day of the Lord... in the last days of the gentile era... How do we see this??? Look at Jeremiah 50:2 "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces." The term "set up a standard" - is the Hebrew phrase gevlai shelmaschiach -- "Banner of the Messiah" or "standard" of the Messiah -- it is an obscure, abbreviated Messianic Hebrew idiom. It is an abbrevation for the Messianic prophecies indicating that when Messiah comes, the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet Him and escort him thru the gates of Jerusalem. Now, in ancient Israel, the tribes and tribal leaders were scattered all over the nation. So Israel set up a series of "Flag" stations on hilltops to wave a special flag of the Messiah. When it was waved, the signal man on the next hill picked up his Messianic flag and waved it -- and so on til the message was flashed across Israel that the Messiah was coming. This meant that the tribal leaders instantly dropped everything they were doing and headed for Jerusalem. Now, if you're Jeremiah, how are you going to indicate that what you're writing about takes place when the Messiah is on His way so to speak, during The Day of the Lord? Answer - You use an abbreviated Hebrew idiom that everyone in those days would understand and know what you're talking about. SO, he used that phrase "gevlai" - to set up a standard or banner or in this case it meant - to set up the Messiah's flag -- indicative that all that follows takes place during this time frame. Now -- you might argue though that Jeremiah 50 and 51 took place in 539 B.C. when Persian conquered Babylon. You can argue that point -- but you're wrong -- because Persia never destroyed Babylon in one day and Babylon was never uninhabited after Persia's conquest. Instead, Babylon became Persia's capital. Persia never burned Babylon to the ground nor did Persian obliterate the nation and its farmlands nor did Persia make Babylonia uninhabited as Isaiah 13:19-21 describes. Nor did the ocean waves come up over Babylon and sink her to the seabed, as Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, and 64 describe. The prophecies of Jeremiah 50 and 51 have never been fulfilled, yet. There are even more indications in Jeremiah's prophecies indicating Babylon of the future is a nation, not a mere city, but I've gone on long enough. As for the Babylon harlot not being America, you're right, sorta, but then I never said she was. I stated as have others. like R.A. Coombes in his books "America, The Babylon" Vols 1 and 2 - that the woman is the chief goddess of Babylon by the personal name of Inanna or Ishtar, depending on either the early or late dialect version of the same person. Ishtar was given many titles by her worshippers -- among them the title "MOTHRER OF THE HARLOTS" and Goddess of Liberty/Freedom and Godess of Immigrants as well as Goddess of Justice, Goddess of War, Goddess of Love, Goddess of Fertility, etc etc. I think in another post here I went into more detail about her religion being a mystery religion in which her priestesses were called "holy whores" or "holy harlots" and engaged in religious, ritual sex with a worshipper so that they could be purified of their sins and have salvation by sex. Holy Sex. A Ishtar Harlot was holy, sinless and pure in the eyes of Babylonians. It was the highest honor a woman could achieve. Ishtar's religion invented the idea of money, and banking and loaning money at interest. On New years eve the King would go to the temple to have holy sex with the chief high priestess. The goddess would possess the priestesses body and the king and the goddess would become one together. IF the king failed to please the goddess sexually, the nation would suffer crop failures and the king would be eliminated and a new king chosen. During the New Year's ceremony, the temple's worshippers would gather outside and throw a big drunken orgy to urge the king on. Travelling merchants routinely engaged in holy sex as part of their business routine to obtain blessings from Ishtar. Also, Ishtar's religion was called a "mystery" religion with numerous "mystery" or 'secret' doctrines. One of which we know concerned her crown of 7 horns or spikes. These spikes, according to the 'mystery' functioned to reflect the occult enlightenment of Ishtar's brother, the sun-god Utu (aka Shamash) upon each of the 7 "hora" or large landmasses or 7 continents and 7 seas of the Earth. Revelation 17:9 - the woman sits on 7 "hora" as the Greek word puts it. KJV translates it as mountains. Liddell & Scott's Lexicon notes that the word in its root form means large land mass and could be used for continents, mountain or dessert, but not for a hill. The verse is quoting Ishtar's mystery doctrine of her crown and telling us her influence was global as covering the 7 continents. The Greeks who worshipped Ishtar used that same word "hora" in that mystery doctrine. Today, the crown of the Statue of Liberty, according to the National Park Service serves to reflect the enlightenment of the statue's brother the sun god on the 7 continents and 7 seas. The statue's sculptor, a freemason- Frecerick Bartholdi wrote in his notes that the statue was his artistic rendering of the Roman Goddess Libertas... Some background - the Roman Goddess Libertas was a prostitute religion focused solely on the sexual liberty of the mystery religion they borrowed from the Greeks whom they called Astarte or Aphrodite -- and they borrowed or adopted her religion from Babylon where she was called Ishtar, Mother of the Harlots and Goddess of Liberty. Soooooooo the Statue of Liberty is the largest idol ever made with human hands and it represents a likeness of THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS. Another Freemason sculptor, Thomas Crawford did his own version of the Roman goddess Libertas, and called her the goddess of Freedom - which stands atop the capitol dome in Washington, D.C. - The capitol building itself was originally named "Temple of the goddess of Liberty" by the Founding Fathers, Ben Franklin and George Washington, both of whom were mastermasons. The Capitol was consecrated in an occult Masonic ceremony in a cornerstone laying to give occult blessing to the building. The 2nd most popular temple in all of Babylon was the temple of the sun-god Utu/Shamash - brother of Ishtar - his temple's name -- The White House. According to David Ovason in his recent book, "The Secret Architecture of our Nation's Capital" Ovason takes 500+ pages with 150+pages of documented footnotes to prove and conclude that the city of Washington, D.C. is an open-air temple of Ishtar because she is the guardian angel of the nation. Constitution Avenue lines up with Ishtar's home star, Sirius in her constellation Virgo (she's called the perpetual virgin) and Constitution Avenue lines up with Sirious on every Spring and Autumnal equinox. -- Washington, D.C. is more Babylonian than ancient Babylon ever was. Washington is the most occult city ever built. All of that is just for starters -- the tip of the iceberg of America being the Babylon of prophecy. Clearly, Revelation 17 is referencing Ishtar and no one or nothing else and the fact that she is the guardian angel of a super power nation at the end of the gentile age going into the Day of the Lord. Jerusalem - cannot be the Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. because if this were so, it would negate the Messianic prophecies of the Millennial kingdom, because the Earthly Jerusalem is the capital city of the Messiah and thus it cannot be destroyed as the Babylon prophecies indicate because Babylon will never be rebuilt, never inhabited and sinks below the ocean. The New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven, does so AFTER the millenial reign of Christ and the final battle with Satan and AFTER Eternity begins or as Eternity begins. So any notion that present day Jerusalem is Babylon is beyond laughable, but outright blasphemy and an attempt to negate God's Word. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You also said.... The Babylon harlot is not America. Nor is it the EU, nor any 10 nations of the G10, etc. It's what God's Word says it is, "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth." It is a particular 'city'. Not a nation, nor a group of nations. But a particular singular city. All one need do is pay attention in Revelation to know the 'dragon' is at Jerusalem when he ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" who will appear there in Jerusalem (per Revelation 11).

It looks like this thread is still active enough for me to think it might be helpful to post an interesting resource guide. For anyone truly wanting THE Ultimate study resource on this subject, I recommend the following book: "The Silence Is Broken" by Douglas Berner. It is nearly 400 pages in softcover. Douglas Berner does a great job in covering ALL identity theories about who is Magog and the allies that join in the war on Israel. Berner also gives the pros and cons for each identity theory argument. He of course also goes into detail on where, why and what all is involved in the prophecy. Perhaps the most fascinating part of his research deals with the issue of "when" and the various theories that have popped up over the years. He gives the pros and cons for each. He personally things it is likely (not being dogmatic) that Magog's war could occur before the rise of the Antichrist and even before the Tribulation or even before a Pre-Trib rapture. Now that, to me is a stunning notion. His logic seems rather strong too. The book is very well researched and written, although I disagree with him about Russia being Magog. My research strongly remains with 2000+ years of opinion that Magog is what we know to day as Turkey. So even though I tend to disagree with him on Russia (and I'm not dogmatically opposed to the idea of Russia being Magog - its just that I think there are serious problems with the idea) I still highly recommend his book whether for newbies to prophecy or old scholars and know-it-alls. I think its available on Amazon but he also has a website: www.thesilenceisbroken.us Hope this post helps someone who is searching for answers.

I've not seen any postings, at least recently on speculation that the situation in Lebanon involving Hezbollah might be connected somehow to Ezekiel 38 and 39 and the Magog invasion of Israel. From what I can tell in research, the Magog invasion will come through what is present-day southern Lebanon, where Hezbollah has concentrated much of its 60,000 man militia. Furthermore, Hezbollah has volunteer fighters coming in from all the allied nations mentioned in Ezekiel's prophecy including Libya, Sudan, Chad, Ethiopia, Algeria, Turkey, Chechnya, and of course Persia/Iran and Iranian Revolutionary Guards, as well as Syrians. I'm not asserting anything here, just posting what amounts to - a "hummm, interesting." No conclusions here, just raising a potential question, looking for comments and opinions from others. Oh, also - I'm not keen on the idea that Magog's allies include Russia. I never did think Meschech stood for Moscow nor Tubal as standing for Tobalsk. Aside from Gesenius, no prophecy commentators ever considered Russia or the Soviets to be Magog until after WW2. Most all commentators assumed it was Turkey because that is where the Magog tribe lived at the time of Ezekiel according to archaeologists and anthropologists. Isn't it at least "ironic" concerning the present situation in Lebanon and the Ezekiel prophecies? Your thoughts? Opinions? Comments on this idea? yea or nay.

John was writing down what he was told on the basis of what he saw. He was not writing it down necessarily for those of his day. He was merely trying to remain faithful to writing down what he saw using the vocabulary of his own day, not knowing when such events might unfold. Your question sounds like you take a preterist viewpoint. Nevertheless, the question stands. Poisoning the wells doesn't make it go away. To reiterate, how would John's intended audience, the Christians he wrote the letter to, have understood this passage? To reiterate - John wrote to the audience the Holy Spirit directed him to write to - which was all the saints, but especially to the saints who would be alive at the time of the fulfillments. Revelation 1:1 - is often mistranslated as if it indicates that John expected these events he writes about to occur soon. The actual Greek text and the grammar do not necessarily conform to such thinking. The KJV states Rev 1:1 as follows: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: The actual, literal Greek text states -- αποκαλυψις ιησου χριστου ην εδωκεν αυτω ο θεος δειξαι τοις δουλοις αυτου A revelation of Jesus Christ which gave to him God to show to the slaves of him α δει γενεσθαι εν ταχει και εσημανεν αποστειλας δια του αγγελου things which it behooves to occur with speed and he signified sending thru an angel αυτου τω δουλω αυτου ιωαννη of him to the slave of him John. Now the key phrase here in terms of timing is the following: δει γενεσθαι εν ταχει it behooves to occur with speed This phrase indicates not that the events described would occur - soon - but when they did happen would occur with speed. In other words, once the events started - they would occur speedily. According to rabbinical writings, there was a popular theory that the Messiah would come at the 6,000 year mark and establish a 1,000 year millenial reign. This was a very prominent view in the 1st Century A.D. within scholarly Jewish circles but not amongst the unlearned Jews. Early church fathers wrote that this view of 6,000 years influenced the Apostles' thinking. With that being the case, John was writing to a broader audience than just those of his day, and he apparently realized it. As an aside, I would suggest reading the commentary of Revelation written by R.H. Charles in 1920. Someone has posted the introduction to his commentary, which is quite fascinating - for those of a scholarly background. Charles makes some interesting observations about the authorship of the book and how it was written. He questions which John wrote the book and he also believes that John whoever John was, had a scribe who finished the book. His thesis is that John wrote down visions which occurred at different moments of time with apparent time gaps between visions. He bases it, in part on stylistics sentence structure and vocabulary among other things. He also asserts that Revelation is not written in a completely chronological order and that the visions were not given necessarily in a chronological order. No matter what one's views are of the book, Charles' comments are to say the least, fascinating. Take a look if you'd like- but it's not quick nor easy reading http://www.dabar.org/RHCharles/Revelation/contents.htm Fascinating reading. However, it doesn't answer the question of how John's original audience would have understood the passage in question. That is the only valid objective point of control for interpreting the book. Once that control point is established, then there is a basis for application if need be. To properly exegete the book, it must be read with first-century eyes and heard with first-century ears. Otherwise, the text is bent to the reader's own biases and the faulty interpretation builds on itself. But I just answered your question. The book was not intended for merely a first century readership. It should NOT be interpreted through first century eyes, only. Period. To properly exegete the text - one must understand Koine-Greek, yes, but not with the idea that it was only written to first century readers nor that it described first century events. The fact was - according to the early church fathers -- no one understood John's visions, PERIOD! - Everyone was scratching their heads, including John's disciples. Even John, himself didn't understand it. You see this in some of his own statements in the text. For example - Rev 17: 6 where he says "I wondered with great admiration." - That is a lousy translation and totally fails to communicate the meanings of two key Greek words -- "ethaumasa" and "thauma" - both are combined with the Greek word "mega" which John used every time he turned around. John "Megas" every thing 'to death' in Revelation and especially in Rev 17 and 18. Mega is a superlative adjective, meaning "super" in size, scope, power, as in awesome. The words "Ethaumasa" and "thauma" are spelling variations of the same word which can carry different shades of meaning depending on use, context and relational adjectives. In the case of Revelation 17:6 when there is double repetition combined with the superlative "mega"- indicates acute astonishment. A former Greek professor of mine who turned down a chance to teach Greek grammar and New Testament Greek at Oxford and Cambridge Universities - commented on this verse in Greek class, one day - noting that the verse could and should be properly understood along our modern day vernacular as... "I was amazed/astonished and flabbergasted, floored to the point of speechless" indicating he was unable to come to terms with what he was seeing. In other words - he didn't quite understand it, himself. We see that confirmed in the next verse when the angel asked him why he was reacting this way? And the angel again tries to explain it to him. So the angel then explains further, the 'mystery" of the woman and then proceeds to describe one the mystery doctrines of the woman, known as the Goddess Ishtar of Babylon - who was called by her worshippers and was known widely around the known world as "The MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS" because her temple priestesses were "holy harlots" pure and sinless and functioned to assiste worshippers in being purified by engaging in sexual intercourse in the temple with a worshipper so that in sexual union the goddess' spirit came down and possessed the body of the priestess so that the priestess (harlot) and the worshipper would become "one with the goddess" and purified from sin with the sexual secretions. Afterwards, the worshipper would give a thanksgiving offering in the temple collection box of a gold or silver coin(s) minted by the Temple because Ishtar's temple functioned as a bank also. Ishtar's religion invented the concept of money, banking and interest loans, not to forget the invention of fractional reserve banking. This is how the idea of Prostitution came into existence - not merely for sex for money, but rather as a means of spiritual salvation and purity. There was no such thing as street hookers or call-girls or brothels... no need - just go to the Temple. So in Rev 17:9 -- the angel gives another 'mystery' doctrine of Ishtar - her influence extended to the 7 continents of the world. Her mystery doctrine of her crown of 7 spikes taught that her 7 spikes in her crown functioned to spread the occult enlightenment of her brother - the sun-god Utu (aka Shamash in the Akkadian dialect) upon each of the 7 "hora" or continents and the 7 seas of the world. This particular phrase of her mystery doctrine, was borrowed intact and quoted in Rev 17:9. Unfortunately - idiots out there misunderstand the key word - "hora" in the original Greek text of verse 9. The NIV & other modernist translations - ascribe the word "hill" to it. The word NEVER was used for "hill" by the users of Koine Greek. There were a dozen or so other different words for hill. One specifically "bounos" was a latin word that was used for the 7 hills of Rome. In fact, the term 7 hills of Rome - was an unkown term in 1st Century AD or at least we have no record of it being written down. It never appeared until the 3rd or 4th century A.D. -- There were 6 or 7 instances of its usage in obscure writings before the time of Julius Caesar, but never again until 300 or so years had passed. The KJV and NASV translate "hora" as mountain in verse 9. Mountain was a valid usage in the 1st century. Also it was used for deserts, BUT -- Liddell & Scott's 2-Volume Lexicon of the Greek-to-English indicates that the primary root word means "large land mass" and a reference to continents as well as deserts or any kind of large land mass. But the fact that the phrase in Verse 9 matches the mystery doctrine of Ishtar combined with the reference of Verse 5 as the "Mother of the Harlots" only confirms that the woman being described is the goddess, Ishtar. Incidentally, she held many other interesting titles - like "Goddess of Liberty/Freedom" and Goddess of Immigrants, Goddess of War, Fertility, Justice, Civlization, and as the Queen of Heaven. The Romans originally borrowed her via the Greeks, as the Goddess Libertas and later adopted all of her mystery dogmas and called her Venus. The Greeks called her - originally - Astarte and later Aphrodite. The Egyptians called her "Ishi" or "Ishti" -- but the Greeks referred to the Egyptian name as Isis because Greek language has no "SH" sound and the final "s" is never pronounced in Greek. LoL. I guess I kinda digressed, but back to my point about John not quite understanding what he was writing... Your argument that we should interpret Revelation as John intended for his 1st Century readers to understand it - is laughable on its face. John didn't undrestand it. His readers didn't understand it either. Everyone scratched their heads. Therefore your objection and arguments are meaningless and totally invalid. I rest my case. I suggest you read some of the books I mentioned earlier like, "Red Moon Rising" or "America, The Babylon" and R.H. Charles' commentary on Revelation, if you can get copies.

It seems a chunk of this thread went off track onto the subject of Mystery Babylon. There is a lot of misunderstanding and false understandings about that subject, not the least of which concerns various theories about the identity of this "mystery" called Babylon, The Great. I think that's because, God indicated that a future Babylon would be a 'mystery.' There is a couple of short E-books on the subject that anyone can download for FREE. One is entitled "Mystery Babylon: Myths, Errors of Interpretation" and a second book "The Mystery Babylon Debate Handbook." - both are by R.A. Coombes - who has also written a scholarly 2-volume work on the subject: "America, The Babylon." -- It's a 2 volume work - huge in size, heavy attention to the original Greek and Hebrew texts and scholastic translation work. Coombes also includes extensive empirical proofs. A Seminary professor, Dr. Mark Hitchcock at Dallas Theological Seminary hailed Coombes' books as the definitive work on the theory that America is the Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. A Grace Theological Seminary professor, Dr. Fred Fogle praised the books in his book "A Road Map to the Future." Other authors, like Peter Goodgame, heavily cites Coombes in his book "Red Moon Rising." For those citations, I figure some folks here might like to at least download some of his latest, FREE e-books on the subject. He has many E-books that are free downloads on his Prophecy News and Studies website - The Alpha-Omega Report. Here is a link to the E-book download page - http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=67 I noticed that someone is proposing the idea that Jerusalem is the Babylon of Revelation 17. 18. There are serious flaws in such a theory. Namely - that whoever Babylon is - it is destroyed, never to be rebuilt or lived in. Furthermore, it sinks beneath the ocean as Jesus Christ returns at the Second Coming, according to Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, and 64 as well as Revelation 18:21 - yet the prophecies also speak of a fire judgment that takes one hour for Babylon's destruction and it happens at the time the A/C comes to power in that same 'one hour' that the 10 horns vote power to him in Revelation 17:12-17. So that, Babylon has two judgments, one by fire in one hour, leaving her a desert for an undetermined time frame. then at the 2nd coming - Rev 16:17-21 indicates a second judgment on Babylon at the 2nd Coming. The result is that Babylon is to be found no more ever. If Jerusalem were actually "T-H-E" Babylon - then Jerusalem would be destroyed, never to be rebuilt and unable to fulfill the prophecies during the Tribulation period and unable to fulfill the role as the seat of the throne of Christ during the Millennial reign of Christ, because Jerusalem is the capital city of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. So the idea that Babylon is Jerusalem negates the Messianic, Millennial prophecies. Some think a new Jerusalem comes down from heaven, and it does, but only after the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years and the old earth is destroyed and a new heaven and new Earth come down, i.e. the New Jerusalem. The moral here is don't confuse the "New Jerusalem" as a replacement for a Babylon. Other factors also come into play, negating Jerusalem as the Babylon. including the fact that Babylon is the "last of the super-power nations (per Jeremiah 50-51) and Babylon is where all the world's leaders meet. It is also a land of abundant fresh waters Israel is not a fresh-water nation, and - Jeremiah tells us - Babylon is CITIES --- PLURAL. Babylon also has military forces/defenses that mount up into outer space. Also Jeremiah tells the Jews to flee out of Babylon and return to Zion and Jerusalem. The "harlot" or "whore" concept is a reference to the chief goddess of ancient Babylon - goddess Ishtar aka Inanna who held the title in Babylon - given to her by her worshippers -- as the "Mother of the Harlots" because her religion was a "mystery" religion and promoted the concept of "Holy Sex" -- or salvation by sex. The Ishtar goddess and her religion is what Revelation 17 is referencing. But who was Ishtar? According to Babylonian royal records she was one of the Anunnaki - the "benai hahelohim" of Genesis 6 who came down to Earth and messed with human DNA, creating a hybrid offspring race, called the Nephilim. --- Bottom line -- Ishtar was/is a fallen angel of high rank. She was the guardian angel of ancient Babylon... and according to Revelation 17, Ishtar, the Mother of the Harlots is the guardian angel of a super-power nation, which according to Revelation 18, and especially verses 11-13 indicates that this future super-power nation - the last of the super-powers - is also the Engine of Wealth for the world's economy and the place where world consumer goods prices are pegged and benchmarked. As for the "blood" of prophets and saints... that is describing Ishtar, the fallen angel, primarily though also Rev 18:24 indicates that Babylon is responsible for all innocent murders from the time of the very first murder - Abel - based upon a special Greek verb tense - called a perfect participle. A perfect participle in Rev 18:24 indicates that the guilt of murder applies to the very first instance - which puts us back to Abel and all who come afterwards, and not just prophets and saints but of all those innocently killed. Bottom line: Jerusalem fails to fit ALL the criteria of the prophetic passages, but especially the part about the Millennial reign aspects. Israel must be around to be The Kingdom of the Messiah, whose kingdom includes most of Iraq including ancient Babylon--- which also rules out the idea that Babylon is modern-day Iraq. If you really want to get a handle on the complicated issues surrounding the attempts to identify a future Babylon, read the books - 2 volumes - "America, The Babylon" -- www.americathebabylon.com and get the book through The A-O Report website - www.aoreport.com

Whoa, what a thread - how did this thread get so far off topic and onto other subjects like Mystery Babylon? LoL. As for the original poster's question - You assume it is 10 nations based on the 10 toes of Daniels vision, correct? While it might seem logical to conclude the 10 toes are nations, the text does not specify. Some would then refer to Revelation 17:12-14 with the 10 'horns'- but that term simply means "representatives"- or "ambassadors." Most likely the 10 toes is a reference to nations but it pays to be cautious on the point and not absolutely dogmatic. Also, the 10 toes would not necessarily mean a re-constitution of areas that comprised the old Roman empire per se. It might, but then again it might refer to 10 key nations which adopted a Roman-style form of government with an elected legislature and an executive leader - as in today's democracy. With this idea, it is entirely possible that the 10 horns and or toes is a reference to today's G-10 or G10 nations. Consider this possible scenario... The rapture occurs. Multitudes are missing. At the same time or shortly thereafter (perhaps minutes or hours) Babylon, aka "mystery" Babylon is destroyed by fire in one hour of one day as Revelation 18 puts it. It comes in the same one hour that the 10 horns vote power to the beast... Why? Why vote him into power? Perhaps it is because the "spin doctors" declare that UFOs from outer space ... i.e. "aliens" attacked Babylon and conducted a mass abduction. Planet Earth needs to unify behind a global government. Ambassadors of the G-10 meet hurriedly behind closed doors and elect/select a leader who promised he can rally humanity to defend the planet against a follow up "alien" attack. Sound feasible? The Powers That Be have hinted that at some point, a global gov't could and would be formed under such an "alien" threat. President Reagan and Soviet Premier Gorbachev hinted as much twice back in the 1980s during speeches.

John was writing down what he was told on the basis of what he saw. He was not writing it down necessarily for those of his day. He was merely trying to remain faithful to writing down what he saw using the vocabulary of his own day, not knowing when such events might unfold. Your question sounds like you take a preterist viewpoint. Nevertheless, the question stands. Poisoning the wells doesn't make it go away. To reiterate, how would John's intended audience, the Christians he wrote the letter to, have understood this passage? To reiterate - John wrote to the audience the Holy Spirit directed him to write to - which was all the saints, but especially to the saints who would be alive at the time of the fulfillments. Revelation 1:1 - is often mistranslated as if it indicates that John expected these events he writes about to occur soon. The actual Greek text and the grammar do not necessarily conform to such thinking. The KJV states Rev 1:1 as follows: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: The actual, literal Greek text states -- αποκαλυψις ιησου χριστου ην εδωκεν αυτω ο θεος δειξαι τοις δουλοις αυτου A revelation of Jesus Christ which gave to him God to show to the slaves of him α δει γενεσθαι εν ταχει και εσημανεν αποστειλας δια του αγγελου things which it behooves to occur with speed and he signified sending thru an angel αυτου τω δουλω αυτου ιωαννη of him to the slave of him John. Now the key phrase here in terms of timing is the following: δει γενεσθαι εν ταχει it behooves to occur with speed This phrase indicates not that the events described would occur - soon - but when they did happen would occur with speed. In other words, once the events started - they would occur speedily. According to rabbinical writings, there was a popular theory that the Messiah would come at the 6,000 year mark and establish a 1,000 year millenial reign. This was a very prominent view in the 1st Century A.D. within scholarly Jewish circles but not amongst the unlearned Jews. Early church fathers wrote that this view of 6,000 years influenced the Apostles' thinking. With that being the case, John was writing to a broader audience than just those of his day, and he apparently realized it. As an aside, I would suggest reading the commentary of Revelation written by R.H. Charles in 1920. Someone has posted the introduction to his commentary, which is quite fascinating - for those of a scholarly background. Charles makes some interesting observations about the authorship of the book and how it was written. He questions which John wrote the book and he also believes that John whoever John was, had a scribe who finished the book. His thesis is that John wrote down visions which occurred at different moments of time with apparent time gaps between visions. He bases it, in part on stylistics sentence structure and vocabulary among other things. He also asserts that Revelation is not written in a completely chronological order and that the visions were not given necessarily in a chronological order. No matter what one's views are of the book, Charles' comments are to say the least, fascinating. Take a look if you'd like- but it's not quick nor easy reading http://www.dabar.org/RHCharles/Revelation/contents.htm

I watched CNN interview Barak earlier today. and to me, Barak looked and talked worried. CNN's Wolf Blitzer was trying to pin him down on an allowable time frame for diplomacy of 15 to 18 months perhaps. Barak refused to take the bait. From what I've been able to pick up from Israeli sources, it sounds like the Israelis are thinking Iran will have a nuke by February of 2009. Debka is reporting that the US has privately offered a very top secret anti-missile defense radar system to catch an Iranian missile just as it launches, giving Israel a critical extra 5 minutes to respond but it sounds like that kind of help won't be enough to dissuade the Israelis from striking sooner, rather than later. Dubya's team is frantically doing every thing it can to forestall Israel from striking Iran before Bush leaves office. Why? If Israel strikes - all you know what breaks loose and there goes Dubya's "legacy" as a peace maker. LoL. I'm just wondering - Do they take "stupid" pills every morning at the White House? LoL

WorldNetDaily has been harping on this for quite some time now. While it is do-able, there are some technologies the US has in its "black ops" program that is literally - 'out of this world.' - Frankly, I don't see Iran getting the chance to sneak a nuke missile onto a freighter and steaming to the US coastal area. However in 5 years, or so, Iran is expected to have its own ICBM - now then - we have a different ballgame all together. Although, again, with our "out of this world" technology, even an Iranian ICBM would likely be shot down long before Apogees. -- Ditto for the Russians or the Chinese ICBMs also. From what I understand, the bigger concern is Red Chinese ability to hack into US computer systems. Now that IS a problem.

How would John's readers have understood this passage? Any "interpretation" that isn't anchored to the understanding of the original audience is meaningless. I seriously doubt John knew or cared anything about New York City. He was more concerned about the immediate events of his own day, under Roman rule with its cult of emperor-worship. What would be the point of cryptically forecasting events thousands of years in his, John's, future?