No rapture or left behind

[Massorite]

Allow me to set the stage....The time is the new world order under one religion. The antichrist is killing all who do not pledge his alliance. You cannot buy, sell, or trade without his mark. What would you do? Where would you go? How do you protect your family? How would you survive? Do you have a plan if this horrible event should ever occur?

If you are in Jesus you and your loved ones will be taken out of the world before all this happens.The rapture is a distinct event in itself and takes place at least seven years before the second coming of christ. The rapture takes place before the tribulation, and the second coming after the tribulation. The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR the saints (1 Thess. 4:13-17), and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH them (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21). At the rapture, Christ takes the saints to heaven (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16; Col. 3:4), and at the second coming He Leaves Heaven with them (Rev. 19 11-21). At the rapture Christ does not come to Earth (1 thess.4:16) but at the second coming He does (Zech.14:14; Matt. 24:29-31). Since Christ does not come to earth at the rapture, it cannot be called the second coming of Christ. The rapture must and does take place before the fulfilment of Rev. 4-22, which describes the tribulation period and the Millennium and the New Earth after the Millennium. According to 2 Thess. 2:7-8 it is stated that "the Hinderer of lawlessness will be taken out of the way," "And Then shall the wicked be revealed" and since the wicked is here for the last seven years of this age, according to Dan. 9:27, the hinderer must be removed before the Antichrist comes and before the tribulation that he will cause when he comes. The hinderer refered to in 2 thess 2:7-8 is the church, and also that the Antichrist cannot possibly be revealed until after the church us taken out of the way. Now comes the question of whether the Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning or at the middle of the Week, then it can also be proved that the church is raptured before the beginning and not the middle of the Week as the manchild. In Dan. 9:27 we have one indisputable argument that he is revealed at the beginning of the Week, for he makes a covenant for seven years with Israel and not for three and one half years. The breaking of the covenant in the middle of the Week is not a revelation of him on the scene of action, but an unfolding of what he is to do in the middle of the Week, three and one half years after his revelation. This passage gives one of the scriptural marks by which we may know who the Antichrist is and when he is to be revealed. If the church is raptured in the middle of the Week there would be a definite time set for the rapture and we should quit looking for the rapture at any other time and look for the events which mark the appearance of the seventieth Week. But if the Church goes through the terrible events of the seals and trumpets, then the promise of Jesus that true believers shall "escape all these things" is contradicted and Paul's teaching that the church is caught up before the revelation of the Antichrist is also contradicted, for the Antichrist is here three and one half years before the middle of the Week. Therefore, once we understand that the church can be raptured any day and that there is no definite time set for that event, then we can conscientiously teach others that they should be ready for the rapture at any and all times. In Thess. 5:1-11 we have another definite promise assuring us that the saints will escape the wrath which precedes the day of the Lord. "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [deliverance from this wrath] by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." The second advent marks the beginning of the day of the Lord. This wrath is revealed in Matt. 24-25; luke 21; Rev. 6:1-19:21 and is to be fulfilled during the Seventieth Week. If the saints escape this wrath, the church must be raptured before the Week or in Rev. 4:1. Prophetical date Setting (Matt. 24:36-25:46) It is definitely stated and illustrated in these verses that no man will know the day or the hour of the second coming of Christ to the Earth. All we may know is "the times and seasons" which prove the nearness of the second advent (1 Thess. 5:1-9). To keep His disciples from speculating as to the day and hour of His coming, Christ gives a comparison showing a similarity between the days of Noah and the days just before His coming and states that men before the flood "knew not untill the flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37-39; 1 Thess. 5:1-3; Jude 14.As far as the Antichrist ruling all the world, that is a man made theory. He will never rule the entire world.The Antichrist will be a man; " Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six" (Revelation 13:18), and the Bible also teaches that the Antichrist will reign over only ten kingdoms that are yet to be formed inside the yet to be revived, Old Roman Empire and he will not be a world wide dictator (Dan. 7:23-24). Only these ten kingdoms will give their power and kingdoms to him. (Rev.13:1; 17:12-17). Certain countries will escape his rule (Dan.11:40-44). Certain countries will make war on him at the very time he is supposed to be ruling the whole world (Dan. 11:40-44). Because he will reign only over ten countries inside the Roman Empire territory and because America is not inside that territory and never will be, and because certain countries will escape him we can scripturally conclude that he will never rule America or be a world-wide dictator. Therefore, multitudes of people of many nations will also never take the mark of the beast and they will never be killed by the Antichrist for not doing so. The Bible speaks of many peoples of many nations that are left after the reign of the Antichrist, people who will be alive in the Millennium and will go up yearly to worship God (Zech. 14:16-21). This further limits the kingdom of the Antichrist to only part of the world and also limits his ability to kill every one who does not take the mark even in his own empire. According to Rev. 14:9-11 no one who has taken the mark will go into the Millennium, but will be sent to eternal Hell. That multitudes go into the Millennium proves they have not taken the mark of the beast and have not been killed, as taught by many Bible students. If the Antichrist were to kill every person who does not take his mark, and God sends to Hell every one who does take the mark, then there would be not one person left to enter the Millennium. Also, The mark of the beast will not be 666. There are three brands men will have a choice of taking in the days of the Antichrist inside his kingdom. They are his name, his mark, and the number of his name (Rev. 13:16-18). The name and mark of this man is not given in scripture; so no one will know what they are until he comes and men get to know what his name and mark will be, and what he will chose to put on his followers. The only one of these three brands that is given is the number of his name, and that is stated as being 666 in Rev. 13:18. So 666 is not the name or the mark of the beast. It is the number of the beast.

There is no scriptural proof that the 'Restrainer/Hinderer is the church/body of Christ. There is no scriptural proof that the144,000 chosen Jews will be Evangelists who will travel around the world re-Evangelizing a new body of Christ after the resurrection. There is no where in the bible where the seven year period is called or where the words "seven years of tribulation". The "number of souls standing before the throne of God that no man can count" in chapter 7 of the book of Revelation are not the converts of the 144,000 because a number which no man can count is more then there are people living on this earth today which 6.2 or 3 billion. And we know that man is capable of counting up to a trillion and beyond. Which means that the "number that no man can count" who are standing before the throne of God. Who came out of Great Tribulation are all of the souls that have died in the name of Christ for the past two thousand years. Which is why no man can count their number. Only God knows their number.

So many who believe in the pre-trib concept just Love to quote 2 Thess. 2:7-8 skipping verses 1-6 which say the exact opposite of what the pre-tribbers teach. What does it say? Verses 1 and 2 are talking about the "day of Christ/resurrection day" and then verse 3 says " Let no man DECEIVE you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME unless there is a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Sound to me like the resurrection will not come until the antichrist is revealed to us. Which means that he will be already on the world scene before Christ comes to pick us up.

In spit of verses 1-6 the pre-tribbers teach that verses 1-6 happen after verses 7-8. OK! I'll go for that. Show me some scripture where the bible says that verses 1-6 happen after 7-8 and there are none.

And let us not forget about Matthew 24:29-31 " IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Verse 30 " And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Verse 31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other". In verse 31 the elect speaks of anyone who has received "the word". These verses say that Christ will not be coming until after a period of tribulation of "those days" which have not happened.

The bottom line here is these scriptures that I just used and the facts that I have just stated. Put the pre-trib concept to shame making it a false doctrinal teaching and they only way to justify the pre-trib concept is to twist scripture to fit the concept. I don't know about anybody else but I take the word "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" literally and the research I have don't has revealed no hidden meaning in the Hebrew or the Greek or the Arabic. They mean exactly what they say.

[vicki-aka-bebe]

Well as many have said i am not planning on being here there for have made no plans other wise... but i know that isnt what u asked so i thought on it and i would say that i know it is going to be a very hard time for people that might have missed the rapture, but knowing what i do know i would do all i can to keep on the path to meet Jesus and when it got to where i had to make the choice of who i will serve everything in me says i will stand for my Lord... my children are grown and to see children put through what might happen to them if we dont take the mark would be my hardest thing to over come i think.. but again i stand for my Lord and i pray that i would have the strength with in my self as christians of old did to not give up.. so i plan on making the rapture, being ready when my saviour comes, in that i mean, staying in the race as some say and doing all i know to do and when i stumble get back up with the Lords help and go forward... may we all be in that number when the saints go marching home. God bless sister vicki

[EndDays]

I think that whatever happens in the end times, it will be completely different than what anyone has ever spectulated it would be like. Not only does 'no man know the day or the hour' but i think that no man even knows that it will be like. Half the things in revalation could be spiritual, half carnal, or wholly spiritual or wholly carnal. We dont know how it will be, so trusting in the Lord is our best bet, and listening to the Holy Spirit inside of us as the end of days draws nearer.

Agreed and I think that is why it puts fear into so many people....They do not know what lies ahead.

After starting this topic over year ago a lot has changed for me personally. See I live in the so-called "bible belt" of the USA. I don't live in a big city. Everybody is pretty friendly and there is a lot of Christians and a lot of churches everywhere I go.

Since spending a lot of time on the internet and (sadly) watching more television that I use to, my eyes have been opened to how much Christian bashing and Athiesm is truly out there. There is so much hate against God that it sickens my stomach. Still thru it all I can't help but smile. It only reinforces to me that the word of God is true - "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake" Matthew 10:22

Pray, stay strong and obey Gods word is the key to retaining a strong mind in these troubled times.

[damo1]

Well as many have said i am not planning on being here i

It is irrealevent what you are planning to do or not to do,If your belief contradicts scripture it is wrong.so unless you die first you will be here for the tribulation

damo1

owingsaseagles

read your bible right threw not just by what you might understand its just amazing my friend of what knowledge you do have on the rapture honestly do you dream dreams do you hear god speaking to you have you gone over matthew 24 and hear what jesus tells his disciples about the end days this is a forum a person should be able to have their say with out you jumping on them so please ownings do not jump on a sister like this with out hearing what others are saying i only just came to this topic to see what is being said so far

and i am right on the same path as end days with so much bashing of gods people and towards what christ did for us can you honestly say to me that you have this prophetic gift to predict to what is going to happen when only the father knows what is to come in the end days read matthew 24 propley before you go saying what you left for another sister i am still hear owningsaseagles and i am also alowed to have my say

so lets keep the personal remarks to our selves and stick to the topic that is being talked on

lets hear your views if you have this prophetic gift to predict what is going to occur can you honestly say that you wil be taken with the rest when christ comes back for the elect

lets hear your points on the topic with out attacking or forcing your views on any one

think hard man before you say something

from damo

[eric]

Well I might be wrong, Damo, but I don't know that onwings is any worse than the pre tribbers who jump on others who don't swallow their views.

No one in their camp can account for Rev 20:4 where John said he saw the souls of those who had been beheaded and who did not worship the beast or his image and did not receive the mark on their forehead or hand.

So if they reufsed the MOB, then they must have been on earth during the trib and that has to be after the a/c had been identified. So how come if they were saints or part of the church, ( which they would have to be if John saw their souls in heaven ) they didn't go in the alleged rapture?

[chin]

Well I might be wrong, Damo, but I don't know that onwings is any worse than the pre tribbers who jump on others who don't swallow their views.

No one in their camp can account for Rev 20:4 where John said he saw the souls of those who had been beheaded and who did not worship the beast or his image and did not receive the mark on their forehead or hand.

So if they reufsed the MOB, then they must have been on earth during the trib and that has to be after the a/c had been identified. So how come if they were saints or part of the church, ( which they would have to be if John saw their souls in heaven ) they didn't go in the alleged rapture?

because they got saved during the tribulation, they were non-believers at the time of the rapture.

[eric]

Hi Cobalt, I can see where you are coming from. I don't, as a rule get involved in these endlees arguments, but I like to ask question of the hard nosed pretribbers...... part of your response>>

I believe that many people who are straddling the fence, or ambivalent about accepting Jesus before the rapture will have enough knowledge that they understand what has happened when the church is raptured, and they will accept Christ. The Holy Spirit will still be at work, and He will still be drawing people to Jesus.

I gave my question to ancient, on the rapture thread, a few moments ago so my belief or whatever can be found there for you and Chin.

There are too many inconsistancies in the pre trib camp. If you take the H/S away at the rapture, there will be no one to convict these unsaved. So another question. How can the church or the H/S be the one that is called the restrainer, who accoring to Paul has to taken away before the a/c can be exposed?

All their reasonong is disjointed..

[EndDays]

This topic is VERY beneficial to us believers who love biblical prophecy.

I'm pretty certain we all hope for a pre-tribulation rapture, but what this discussion does is make us aware that if that does not occur that we must resist the evil and the temptation to be one of those who "fall away" from God simply because Jesus did not come and rescue us when we thought he would.

I think one of the best things we can do besides spreading the gospel and saving people thru Christ is to also make them aware of the above statement.

[eric]

Thank you, Cobalt for your in put. There are about three or four forums going about end times and the rapture and there is always some one getting all bitter and twisted, because they consider themselves to be the only ones who are right, and when they are challenged, they start getting a bit too persoal and attack the opposing poster, calling them names.

There is a pinned forum in the eschatology section to air their views on pre,mid or post trib and they can all waffle on in those and leave some space in the other forums for discussion or debate about other sections of the bible.

With all the huffing and puffing about the rapture, no one has come up with enough scriptual support to convince me they are right and that is why, sooner than argue, I would prefer them to point out where their info comes from.

Christians would be better employed about preaching the truth, that is in the word, instead of harping on assumtions of their own.........empty vessels make the most sound.

[damo1]

Damo ,I have given my views on this subject many times on many threads.And the fact is regaurdless of what you think or I think if it oposses scripture it is wrong ,that is not jumping on any one it is a truthful observation.We will be here for the tribulation the bible says two things that autimaticly equal a third #1 the 2nd coming is after the tribulation matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27.2ndly that the rapture is on the same day as the 2nd coming luke 17:26-30,1st cor 15:20-23,1st thess 4:15-17,2nd thess 1:6-10 and 2nd thess 2:1-3.So if the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and the rapture is at the 2nd coming then the rapture can be at no other time than after the tribulation aswell.Further more in 1st cor 15:51-53 it says the rapture is at the LAST TRUMP I know pretribbers have all kind of reasons that it doesn't''really mean the last trump but I choose to believe scripture,If you read matt 24:29-31 you can see clearly that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation,since the rapture can not be b4 this trump because it is at the LAST TRUMP then the rapture can not be b4 the end of the trib,Even further more Jesus says in john 6:39,40,44,54 that he raises us up at the last day not 7yrs b4 it.Lastly in revelation 20;4-6 it is ubundently clear that the 1st resurrection is after the tribulation and again I know that pretribbers try and explain how this is not really the ''1st resurrection'' but again I choose to believe scripture .Since there can be no resurrection b4 the 1st one and the 1st resurrection is after the trib the rapture can not be b4 the trib.So unless last doesn't mean last or after doesn't mean after or first doesn't mean first the the rapture is most obviously at the post trib 2nd coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

damo1 friday 9th of nov

duh what did i say to you owingsasegles un less you can honeslty for see futer events keep what you know to your self and alow people to have their say with out you jumping on any one this topic always comes up on worthy and when ever this topic comes up we get all these knowledgable experts just like your self who seem to understand scripture and just go by what ever principals you base with out alowing the other side to have a say in how they feel stick with the topic and alow people to have their say

do you know for sure that you wil be hear or do you for sure know that the path you are on know wil get you to heaven what does this verse mean to you

revelations 3 - 10

because you have kept my command to perserver i also wil keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth

11 behold i am coming quickly hold fast what you have that no one may take your crown

12 he who over comes i wil make him a pillar in the temple of my god and he shal go out no more i wil write on him the name of my god and the name of the city of my god the new jerusalem which comes down out of heaven from my god and i wil write on him my new name

13 he who has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the churches

do you think this was just for that time or do you feel this is also a warning for us in this time or is it just to tickle one ear and put fear in him ?

what do you think jesus is saying hear owingsaseagles is he just talking to the christians in that time or is he not saying this to us know that are alive on this earth

we are to perserver and pick up our own cross and stay on the path he has us on

i go to the source of gods word owingsaseagles i do not hide behind bible passages or say as i please

the sister you jumped on had every right to say what she said owingsaseagles just like you have a right to throw out your scripture passages with out understanding and tell ever one its deseption or it just tickles your ear

god word is never wrong my friend we are the ones that get it wrong when we twist it or manipulate it to wear we expect people to come to our way of thinking

you just answerd my question as it seem to me you have no prophetic gift or can for see futer events as a lot of these experts some how think they have when it comes to this topic

i am with in my rights on this forum to jump when ever i like and question these topics should be never alowed to start on this forum as its just wasting every ones time and it give the enemy foot hold to have us fighting among our selves and show the whole world how foolish christians are

did you know that any one in the whole wide world can read this owningsaseagles do you want to be held acountable for some one that wil fal by what we say to each other

think man think very hard if you can for see in the futer lets hear your views dont just hide behind scripture passages that is a cowards way

from damo