Remember the Sabbath

[Floatingaxe]

Matthew 12: 5-8

Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Yes, because of Christ we are free of the Law.

[darski]

The fourth commandment - which was a covenant with the Israelites, is the only one of the 10 that is not affirmed in the NT.

I often wonder if those who would take the Sabbath -that was given only to the Jews- are also believers of Replacement Theology? I'm not saying 'tis so - I am just wondering about this.

[irish]

I just wanted to thank everyone here for their impute into a very difficult question.

I am a forum leader in the spirituality section of Unexplained-Mysteries, and whenever I get stumped by a question I return here, if I cant find an answer in what is already posted you people are a treasured resource.

Keep up God's work and blessings to you all.

Yours in Christ

Irish

Edited November 9, 2006 by irish

[Guest yod]

Oy.

We are free from sin which is the result of the law because where there is no law, there can be no sin. If you say the Law is no longer applicable, then you are saying it is impossible to sin. We have been made free from the spiritual consequences of sin only through forgiveness of the debt...but there is a debt which has to be paid.

But saying the law is made void by grace is like saying that the law of gravity no longer exists because we have airplanes. In much the same way as our relationship to Torah, airplanes fly because they consider the laws of gravity and overcome within that system.

So much in the previous posts is based on post-biblical christian commentary rather than the Bible that I'm not sure where to start disagreeing with the overall gist of it. Suffice to say that we shouldn't judge each other over such trivial matters as how we observe dates so I'll just be quiet. You seem to grasp the "main thing" so these details are unimportant in the bigger picture.

Our hearts condition determines our works. As long as those things line up with scriptural requirements of righteousness, I won't argue against any date or holiday or food you choose to consume. If you cross that line and say that observance of the Sabbath on the Sabbath is wrong, then we'll have some issues to discuss.

[EricH]

Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but don't argue about doubtful issues. One person believes he may eat anything, but one who is weak eats only vegetables. One who eats must not look down on one who does not eat; and one who does not eat must not criticize one who does, because God has accepted him. Who are you to criticize another's household slave?

Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And stand he will! For the Lord is able to make him stand.One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind. Whoever observes the day, observes it to the Lord. Whoever eats, eats to the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is to the Lord that he does not eat, yet he thanks God.

Romans 14:1-6 CSB

[Beta]

So, because people are allowed to do one or the other does not make them all right, does it ?

I thought Jesus said only those who do the will of God are right - as numerous scriptures testify.

[Guest Cephas]

So, because people are allowed to do one or the other does not make them all right, does it ?

I thought Jesus said only those who do the will of God are right - as numerous scriptures testify.

To add the word Ten before each time you see Commandment in the New Testament would be in error. Jesus gave many NEW Commandments in the Gospels (and through the Apostles). It is a mistake to assume that everytime you see command or commandment or Law that Paul is somehow talking only about the OLD COVENANT or the Law of Moses. The Law of Grace is NOT the Law of Moses though there are SOME elements of the Sinai Covenant that are reaffirmed in the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was between God and ISRAEL and it's signs were Circumcision AND THE SABBATH. The New Covenant is Between God and Christians and it's sign is LOVE of fellow Christians (AND YOUR NEIGHBORS, AND GOD, AND YOUR ENEMY. LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW) All the Law and Prophets are summed up by Love. The two Great Commandments (reaffirmed in the NEW) are LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR SOUL AND ALL YOUR MIND, and the other is LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. Listed are the last 6 commandments AS EXAMPLES, for if you Love your neighbor you won't be killing him, robbing him, falsely accusing him, stealing his wife or coveting his possessions. However you CAN follow the 6 WITHOUT following the 2nd Great Commandment. You can follow the letter of the law without Loving your neighbor, but only out of fear of retribution. You CANNOT obey the 2nd Great Commandment and 'disobey' the 6. It's impossible.

I forget the exact scripture, and don't have time tonight to look it up, but Paul does say that Law Abiding Citizens don't need LAW(s) to tell them Right from Wrong, only the disobedient need that. The Obediant Citizen knows it's wrong to steal, kill, lie, cheat, avoid taxes, rabble rouse, etc, and laws are only needed to keep the disobedient in line. I believe he also restates it elsewhere using Christians. I will have to look up the exact wording again. Basically though, the New Covenant is a Spiritual Covenant, God telling you Right from Wrong by giving you a new heart, not laws, rituals and rules of obediance (or hoops to jump through). A Christian will live Rightly because Jesus is living in him, not because of stone tablets, rituals, holy days, sabbaths, etc.

YES, I won't deny it. The Sabbath was NEVER changed by God and is still the 7th day, from Sundown to Sundown, but it is also NEVER commanded of Christians!!! ANYWHERE in the writings of the Apostles or the Gospels (or the Old Testament either, for that matter) It was only commanded of the Tribes of Israel starting during the Exodus and reaffirmed at Sinai. It was not commanded ANYWHERE BEFORE the Exodus, and is not commanded now. Jesus IS our Sabbath, our "Rest". We don't need a special day because we rest in Him EVERYDAY and ALWAYS!!! The Works we perform now are not Works to EARN Righteousness (which CANNOT be done), but Works BECAUSE we have the Spirit of God living (and working) in us. The "LAW" (old Covenant) had one purpose, to define sin(s) and prove that humans could NOT obey it. Jesus became human(no intent to simply what happened either, or deny His Deity), lived it perfectly for us, and then crucified sin, AND the OLD COVENANT with him on the Cross. He ushered in a New Covenant, based on forgiveness, Grace, Faith, LOVE, Mercy. His sacrifice washes away ALL our sins; past, present AND FUTURE! NO that is not a license to "sin", but sin is more than breaking the TEN. Adam and Eve sinned and they didn't break ANY rule of the Sinai Covenant. They simply disobeyed God about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To say otherwise is to assume more than is written. The same with the Sabbath. To assume it is some kind of eternal command because God sanctified the 7th day at creation is assuming more than the Bible ever states. Your adopting opinions instead of God's Revelation. There are many things listed by the Apostles under the heading of sin that aren't mentioned in the Sinai Covenant, so the Law we are breaking has to be different and above the Sinai one. Drunkeness (among other things) is never listed in the Old, but is considered a sinful thing in the NEW. (Not getting Drunk on occasions, but BEING a Drunk).

YES, quite certainly, there are things that Christians shouldn't be doing, and there are things they should be doing (I think Paul puts it "everything is possible for me, but not everything is beneficial for me"), but if they fail at either side they are not discarded, they don't need to go kill some animal or make sacrifices, they aren't 'tossed into hell'. WE are under a NEW LAW, a NEW COVENANT, a covenant based on Spiritual fulfilment, laws written in the heart and mind (not necessarily the ones of Sinai either, though there are some of them that are reaffirmed). If a LAW or Requirement is NOT specifically reaffirmed in the New Covenant, then it doesn't apply to Christians. It is either the OLD COVENANT or the NEW COVENANT, not some kind of blend of both or either. The Old is gone, the New has replaced it, completely and fully. Again, Paul says that if you put yourself under ANY part of the Old, you put yourself under ALL OF IT!!! Either you "Earn your Righteousness" by obeying the "Law", or you are Righteous through FAITH, and he quite plainly states over and over that we CANNOT earn our Righteousness.

[Beta]

It seems impossible to get to the bottom of any kind of Truth, everyone has his own take on the Bible - including myself. What strikes me as being a major cause for division is the transgression of basic foundations and principles God established for the wellbeing of mankind.

To say the Sabbath was only given to the Jews is making a mockery of following scriptures Mk.2 v 27 the Sabbath was made for man . . .(not the Jew only). Through-out the Gospels and Acts we read of Jesus and his Disciples obseving and keeping the Sabbath without even a hint of change.In Is.66 v 22 talking of the future new heavens and new earth God says v 23 and it shall come to pass that . . .from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the Lord. Zech.14 describing the day of the Lord (yet future) v 16 and others , and it shall come to pass that everyone left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King the Lord of hosts and to keep the feast of Tabernacles (just one of Gods holy feasts from Lev.23 )

Those constantly espousing a difference between Jew and Gentile seem unaware that Christ broke down the middle wall of partition between us making both one. Christianity seems determined to keep it up by denying a number of scriptures that would bring them into the Commonwealth of spiritual Israel.Eph.2. To be christian goes much deeper than taking on his name. As seen from above scripts Christ will restore what man has ruined.

[Guest yod]

So, because people are allowed to do one or the other does not make them all right, does it ?

I thought Jesus said only those who do the will of God are right - as numerous scriptures testify.

To add the word Ten before each time you see Commandment in the New Testament would be in error. Jesus gave many NEW Commandments in the Gospels (and through the Apostles). It is a mistake to assume that everytime you see command or commandment or Law that Paul is somehow talking only about the OLD COVENANT or the Law of Moses. The Law of Grace is NOT the Law of Moses though there are SOME elements of the Sinai Covenant that are reaffirmed in the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was between God and ISRAEL and it's signs were Circumcision AND THE SABBATH. The New Covenant is Between God and Christians and it's sign is LOVE of fellow Christians (AND YOUR NEIGHBORS, AND GOD, AND YOUR ENEMY. LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW) All the Law and Prophets are summed up by Love. The two Great Commandments (reaffirmed in the NEW) are LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR SOUL AND ALL YOUR MIND, and the other is LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. Listed are the last 6 commandments AS EXAMPLES, for if you Love your neighbor you won't be killing him, robbing him, falsely accusing him, stealing his wife or coveting his possessions. However you CAN follow the 6 WITHOUT following the 2nd Great Commandment. You can follow the letter of the law without Loving your neighbor, but only out of fear of retribution. You CANNOT obey the 2nd Great Commandment and 'disobey' the 6. It's impossible.

I forget the exact scripture, and don't have time tonight to look it up, but Paul does say that Law Abiding Citizens don't need LAW(s) to tell them Right from Wrong, only the disobedient need that. The Obediant Citizen knows it's wrong to steal, kill, lie, cheat, avoid taxes, rabble rouse, etc, and laws are only needed to keep the disobedient in line. I believe he also restates it elsewhere using Christians. I will have to look up the exact wording again. Basically though, the New Covenant is a Spiritual Covenant, God telling you Right from Wrong by giving you a new heart, not laws, rituals and rules of obediance (or hoops to jump through). A Christian will live Rightly because Jesus is living in him, not because of stone tablets, rituals, holy days, sabbaths, etc.

YES, I won't deny it. The Sabbath was NEVER changed by God and is still the 7th day, from Sundown to Sundown, but it is also NEVER commanded of Christians!!! ANYWHERE in the writings of the Apostles or the Gospels (or the Old Testament either, for that matter) It was only commanded of the Tribes of Israel starting during the Exodus and reaffirmed at Sinai. It was not commanded ANYWHERE BEFORE the Exodus, and is not commanded now. Jesus IS our Sabbath, our "Rest". We don't need a special day because we rest in Him EVERYDAY and ALWAYS!!! The Works we perform now are not Works to EARN Righteousness (which CANNOT be done), but Works BECAUSE we have the Spirit of God living (and working) in us. The "LAW" (old Covenant) had one purpose, to define sin(s) and prove that humans could NOT obey it. Jesus became human(no intent to simply what happened either, or deny His Deity), lived it perfectly for us, and then crucified sin, AND the OLD COVENANT with him on the Cross. He ushered in a New Covenant, based on forgiveness, Grace, Faith, LOVE, Mercy. His sacrifice washes away ALL our sins; past, present AND FUTURE! NO that is not a license to "sin", but sin is more than breaking the TEN. Adam and Eve sinned and they didn't break ANY rule of the Sinai Covenant. They simply disobeyed God about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To say otherwise is to assume more than is written. The same with the Sabbath. To assume it is some kind of eternal command because God sanctified the 7th day at creation is assuming more than the Bible ever states. Your adopting opinions instead of God's Revelation. There are many things listed by the Apostles under the heading of sin that aren't mentioned in the Sinai Covenant, so the Law we are breaking has to be different and above the Sinai one. Drunkeness (among other things) is never listed in the Old, but is considered a sinful thing in the NEW. (Not getting Drunk on occasions, but BEING a Drunk).

YES, quite certainly, there are things that Christians shouldn't be doing, and there are things they should be doing (I think Paul puts it "everything is possible for me, but not everything is beneficial for me"), but if they fail at either side they are not discarded, they don't need to go kill some animal or make sacrifices, they aren't 'tossed into hell'. WE are under a NEW LAW, a NEW COVENANT, a covenant based on Spiritual fulfilment, laws written in the heart and mind (not necessarily the ones of Sinai either, though there are some of them that are reaffirmed). If a LAW or Requirement is NOT specifically reaffirmed in the New Covenant, then it doesn't apply to Christians. It is either the OLD COVENANT or the NEW COVENANT, not some kind of blend of both or either. The Old is gone, the New has replaced it, completely and fully. Again, Paul says that if you put yourself under ANY part of the Old, you put yourself under ALL OF IT!!! Either you "Earn your Righteousness" by obeying the "Law", or you are Righteous through FAITH, and he quite plainly states over and over that we CANNOT earn our Righteousness.

Oy.

We are free from sin which is the result of the law because where there is no law, there can be no sin. If you say the Law is no longer applicable, then you are saying it is impossible to sin. We have been made free from the spiritual consequences of sin only through forgiveness of the debt...but there is a debt which has to be paid.

But saying the law is made void by grace is like saying that the law of gravity no longer exists because we have airplanes. In much the same way as our relationship to Torah, airplanes fly because they consider the laws of gravity and overcome within that system.

So much in the previous posts is based on post-biblical christian commentary rather than the Bible that I'm not sure where to start disagreeing with the overall gist of it. Suffice to say that we shouldn't judge each other over such trivial matters as how we observe dates so I'll just be quiet. You seem to grasp the "main thing" so these details are unimportant in the bigger picture.

Our hearts condition determines our works. As long as those things line up with scriptural requirements of righteousness, I won't argue against any date or holiday or food you choose to consume. If you cross that line and say that observance of the Sabbath on the Sabbath is wrong, then we'll have some issues to discuss.

Is that what you are trying to say? When did obeying God become wrong?

The concept of "old" and "new" testament law is a post-biblical christian invention. There is but one Law.

And the pages that say "old testament" and "new testament" weren't put there by God. That is also a post-biblical christian invention. There is but one Holy Book.

Paul said that we establish the Law....that we are not to be hearers only...but doers of the Law. Not in a legalistic ritual observance but in allowing the Law to be written on news hearts instead of stone ones.

[Guest Cephas]

So, because people are allowed to do one or the other does not make them all right, does it ?

I thought Jesus said only those who do the will of God are right - as numerous scriptures testify.

To add the word Ten before each time you see Commandment in the New Testament would be in error. Jesus gave many NEW Commandments in the Gospels (and through the Apostles). It is a mistake to assume that everytime you see command or commandment or Law that Paul is somehow talking only about the OLD COVENANT or the Law of Moses. The Law of Grace is NOT the Law of Moses though there are SOME elements of the Sinai Covenant that are reaffirmed in the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was between God and ISRAEL and it's signs were Circumcision AND THE SABBATH. The New Covenant is Between God and Christians and it's sign is LOVE of fellow Christians (AND YOUR NEIGHBORS, AND GOD, AND YOUR ENEMY. LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW) All the Law and Prophets are summed up by Love. The two Great Commandments (reaffirmed in the NEW) are LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR SOUL AND ALL YOUR MIND, and the other is LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. Listed are the last 6 commandments AS EXAMPLES, for if you Love your neighbor you won't be killing him, robbing him, falsely accusing him, stealing his wife or coveting his possessions. However you CAN follow the 6 WITHOUT following the 2nd Great Commandment. You can follow the letter of the law without Loving your neighbor, but only out of fear of retribution. You CANNOT obey the 2nd Great Commandment and 'disobey' the 6. It's impossible.

I forget the exact scripture, and don't have time tonight to look it up, but Paul does say that Law Abiding Citizens don't need LAW(s) to tell them Right from Wrong, only the disobedient need that. The Obediant Citizen knows it's wrong to steal, kill, lie, cheat, avoid taxes, rabble rouse, etc, and laws are only needed to keep the disobedient in line. I believe he also restates it elsewhere using Christians. I will have to look up the exact wording again. Basically though, the New Covenant is a Spiritual Covenant, God telling you Right from Wrong by giving you a new heart, not laws, rituals and rules of obediance (or hoops to jump through). A Christian will live Rightly because Jesus is living in him, not because of stone tablets, rituals, holy days, sabbaths, etc.

YES, I won't deny it. The Sabbath was NEVER changed by God and is still the 7th day, from Sundown to Sundown, but it is also NEVER commanded of Christians!!! ANYWHERE in the writings of the Apostles or the Gospels (or the Old Testament either, for that matter) It was only commanded of the Tribes of Israel starting during the Exodus and reaffirmed at Sinai. It was not commanded ANYWHERE BEFORE the Exodus, and is not commanded now. Jesus IS our Sabbath, our "Rest". We don't need a special day because we rest in Him EVERYDAY and ALWAYS!!! The Works we perform now are not Works to EARN Righteousness (which CANNOT be done), but Works BECAUSE we have the Spirit of God living (and working) in us. The "LAW" (old Covenant) had one purpose, to define sin(s) and prove that humans could NOT obey it. Jesus became human(no intent to simply what happened either, or deny His Deity), lived it perfectly for us, and then crucified sin, AND the OLD COVENANT with him on the Cross. He ushered in a New Covenant, based on forgiveness, Grace, Faith, LOVE, Mercy. His sacrifice washes away ALL our sins; past, present AND FUTURE! NO that is not a license to "sin", but sin is more than breaking the TEN. Adam and Eve sinned and they didn't break ANY rule of the Sinai Covenant. They simply disobeyed God about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To say otherwise is to assume more than is written. The same with the Sabbath. To assume it is some kind of eternal command because God sanctified the 7th day at creation is assuming more than the Bible ever states. Your adopting opinions instead of God's Revelation. There are many things listed by the Apostles under the heading of sin that aren't mentioned in the Sinai Covenant, so the Law we are breaking has to be different and above the Sinai one. Drunkeness (among other things) is never listed in the Old, but is considered a sinful thing in the NEW. (Not getting Drunk on occasions, but BEING a Drunk).

YES, quite certainly, there are things that Christians shouldn't be doing, and there are things they should be doing (I think Paul puts it "everything is possible for me, but not everything is beneficial for me"), but if they fail at either side they are not discarded, they don't need to go kill some animal or make sacrifices, they aren't 'tossed into hell'. WE are under a NEW LAW, a NEW COVENANT, a covenant based on Spiritual fulfilment, laws written in the heart and mind (not necessarily the ones of Sinai either, though there are some of them that are reaffirmed). If a LAW or Requirement is NOT specifically reaffirmed in the New Covenant, then it doesn't apply to Christians. It is either the OLD COVENANT or the NEW COVENANT, not some kind of blend of both or either. The Old is gone, the New has replaced it, completely and fully. Again, Paul says that if you put yourself under ANY part of the Old, you put yourself under ALL OF IT!!! Either you "Earn your Righteousness" by obeying the "Law", or you are Righteous through FAITH, and he quite plainly states over and over that we CANNOT earn our Righteousness.

Oy.

We are free from sin which is the result of the law because where there is no law, there can be no sin. If you say the Law is no longer applicable, then you are saying it is impossible to sin. We have been made free from the spiritual consequences of sin only through forgiveness of the debt...but there is a debt which has to be paid.

But saying the law is made void by grace is like saying that the law of gravity no longer exists because we have airplanes. In much the same way as our relationship to Torah, airplanes fly because they consider the laws of gravity and overcome within that system.

So much in the previous posts is based on post-biblical christian commentary rather than the Bible that I'm not sure where to start disagreeing with the overall gist of it. Suffice to say that we shouldn't judge each other over such trivial matters as how we observe dates so I'll just be quiet. You seem to grasp the "main thing" so these details are unimportant in the bigger picture.

Our hearts condition determines our works. As long as those things line up with scriptural requirements of righteousness, I won't argue against any date or holiday or food you choose to consume. If you cross that line and say that observance of the Sabbath on the Sabbath is wrong, then we'll have some issues to discuss.

Is that what you are trying to say? When did obeying God become wrong?

The concept of "old" and "new" testament law is a post-biblical christian invention. There is but one Law.

And the pages that say "old testament" and "new testament" weren't put there by God. That is also a post-biblical christian invention. There is but one Holy Book.

Paul said that we establish the Law....that we are not to be hearers only...but doers of the Law. Not in a legalistic ritual observance but in allowing the Law to be written on news hearts instead of stone ones.

wow, do you ever need to dust off your Bible and read it. The words Old Covenant and New Covenant are all over the place in the New Testament, including the places I quoted for you. In fact there are many covenants in the Bible. Ones God made with Abraham, reaffirmed with Isaac and Jacob, ones made with Israel, ones made with Noah, and one PERMANENT one made with all mankind, call the New Covenant and made by Jesus himself. I don't know what Bible you read, but every translation I have are replete with the words Old and New Covenant

And YES Paul said LOTS of things about Laws, but you're confusing New Covenant Laws with Old Covenant Laws in an attempt to blend the 2. Jesus established several new commandments, which the Gospels themselves address, if you will remove the veil of the temple from your eyes long enough to read them. Paul talks of TWO sets of Laws, so be sure which one he's addressing at which moment before you cascade off on some tangent about works and keeping the Sinai Covenant.

As to the "Commentaries" you disdain so much, perhaps if you'd resort to reading them some, you might get a better understanding of what Scripture really says. The Accepted Commentaries are not scripture, to be sure, but they can add light to a confusing subject. or are you one of them who thinks YOU have the ONLY TRUE way of studying the Bible??? If so, don't bother me any more, I have no use for such people. If you are truly a student of the Bible, you will realize that ANY thing that helps clarify the real message is useful. And when the accepted and noted scholars of old disagree with you, maybe you should figure out why. Tis true they might be in error, but in all likelihood, the one in error is not them.

Edited November 11, 2006 by Cephas