One Punk Under God

[WillingToDie]

Is this thread about wether or not we should open our homes, churches and hearts to goths, punks, drug addicts etc., or wether or not it makes sense for a mature Christian to dress in a way that either represents darkness(goth) or disrespect(punk)?

Is it not possible to be a beacon to all, yet see why it is wrong for those desiring to glorify God to dress punk/goth? Why is it assumed that if a church sees what is wrong with punk, goth style, drug addiction, etc., that they probably turn all these people away at the door? I truly believe that is generally a big fat lie based on an assumption, I have never ever come across a church like this.

We are to be in the world, but not of the world. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

The original point of this thread was just to express my excitement about a ministry developed specifically for reaching the people that other churches and ministries would turn away at the door.

The thread has, since then, most likely evolved into covering both topics.

And dressing "punk" is not just about disrespect (although it can be), nor is goth just about "darkness" (although it can be). The reasons people people dress in different ways differ from person to person, and it is wrong and fallacious to try to jusdge somebody's heart on the way they dress.

Yeah, I know some people dress in black for it's slimming effect, that is not goth.

So what else is goth and punk about?

As for what they stand for, I can't really speak for Goths, because although I was in heavy contact with them in High School, I never was one. That aside, you're not likely to get one single, representative answer from all of them. For some of them, yes, it is about rebellion, others, it's just an aesthetics thing.

Punks, on the other hand, I have a bit more experience. To understand the punk dress, you have to understand punk music. It's usually socially or politically oriented, more often than not a negative commentary, which I suppose can be seen as disrespectful. What you refer to as "punk dress" is the result of an attempt at rejection of mainstream society (and why wouldn't they, our culture, to be quite frank, sucks) and what is called DIY (Do It Yourself)

The main thing to take away from the Punk thing is that it's not meant to be disrespectful, it's meant as a rejection of our culture's norms (a bit too extreme, sometimes). But look, I'm not a sociologist, this is just from my experiences with both sub-cultures, so I can't give you a perfect, 100% correct answer on this.

As for the whole "rejected by churches thing" being a lie, it's not. Particularly in more Conservative churches (socially, not necessarily theologically), it's happened, they are asked to "clean up" or "dress normal" before they come back;we've seen hints of tghis attitude in this very thread. But let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that it is a lie: perhaps even more important than whether or not a church would do so, the fact that these people labeled "outcasts" feel that they would not be accepted at a church. What does that say about us, as Christians, that that's the impression we give off?

[peaches]

this clothing argument is so much like the christian music thing.

[kittylover0991]

this clothing argument is so much like the christian music thing.

Intersetingly enough, it truly is...

What is right in the form of music? What is right in the form of clothing? Should a church really be based on reaching people through these aspects?

[gypc]

This is a link to the episodes that will air and the discusion of standing or not with gay christians.

Click here

[Emily~Anne]

Still waiting for scripture Emily. You have yet to supply any.

Galatians 6:7-9 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Titus 2:12-15 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldy passions, and to live self controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. These then are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

An excellent post by Kittylover0991: http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=712880

Edited December 13, 2006 by Emily Anne

[peaches]

this clothing argument is so much like the christian music thing.

Intersetingly enough, it truly is...

What is right in the form of music? What is right in the form of clothing? Should a church really be based on reaching people through these aspects?

or should it be based on God's word and His leading

[WillingToDie]

Still waiting for scripture Emily. You have yet to supply any.

Galatians 6:7-9 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Titus 2:12-15 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldy passions, and to live self controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. These then are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

An excellent post by Kittylover0991: http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=712880

I don't see how any of this is applicable

[Ovedya]

The answer to frustration with religious convention is not to go full-tilt-boogey in the other direction, mixing various worldly lusts with faith in Christ. It is simply to forsake all to gain Christ in a pure way. Otherwise you're just arranging another religious institution.

[gypc]

The answer to frustration with religious convention is not to go full-tilt-boogey in the other direction, mixing various worldly lusts with faith in Christ. It is simply to forsake all to gain Christ in a pure way. Otherwise you're just arranging another religious institution.

Wow! Now this is wisdom

[spiritman]

There are several points that I would like to make here. There are actually two different subjects I'd like to comment on subject 1, people who have body piercings and tattoos.

Subject 1:

1. I'm sure that some sinners before they came to Jesus , were tatooed and had their ears pierced. And I know that in the Torah it speaks against body piercings, and tattoos of

any kind. Lev 19:28: ( Never cut you bodies in mourning for the dead or mark your skin with tattoos) NLT. However I'd just like to ask how many Christians on this chat

board have pierced their ears?. or how many of us were guilty of any kind of sin before we came to the Lord?. And If you think it will keep you out of heaven? Of course it won't. Paul said, in 2 Corth 5:17; " What this means is that those who become Christians become new persons. They are not the same anymore, for the old life is gone. A new life has begun! or in the KJV: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: Old things have past away; behold, all things have become new. Psalms 103:12: He has removed our rebellious acts as far away from us as the east is from the west. NLT.

You see the newness of a person actually takes place after they become a Christian not before, this is the doctrine of Sanctification, and this is not done by the power of the

indivdual but by the Holy Spirit. As far as the way a person dresses; If a person is coming to church for the first time, they may not have any other clothing to wear, I say it is

better to be in church in rags, then not to be in church at all. And if we are so concerned about the way that a person dresses perhaps we should offer to take them to the department store and by them some new clothes, instead of judging them. I myself have been in church in rags many times, because I didn't have anything else to wear.

James 2:2-4: For instance suppose someone comes into your meeting dressed in fancy clothes and expensive jewelry, and another comes in who is poor and dressed in shabby clothes. If you give special attention and a good seat to the rich person, but you say to the poor one, " You can sit over there, or else sit on the floor"-- well, doesn't this discrimination show that you are guided by wrong motives? NLT. or KJV: James 2:2-4: For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; and ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing and say unto him, sit thou here in a good place; and say to thee poor, stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Isaiah 11:3: Isaish said; about the Messiah; " He shall make Him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and He (the messiah) shall not judge after the sight of His eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of His ears:KJV. NLT: Isaiah 11:3; He will delight in obeying the Lord. He will never judge by appearance false evidence, or hearsay.

So I ask if the Messiah himself does not judge by appearance why are we?

As long as a church preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ, and follows doctrine I don't have a problem with them. however this brings me to subject 2.

I read the link to the show about J's church and this disturbs me.

December 27 at 9:00pm e/p

Episode 3. Jay′s strong gay-affirming stance begins to impact Revolution′s financial health, and he finds himself debating the nuances of compromise and principle with his childhood friend. Now I'm not sure this is saying that J has decided to take a stance for the gay lifestyle and is ok with Jesus, or J is saying we should encourage gays to come into the church so that they can be saved? The gay lifestyle is never ok, and needs to be repented of by indivduals once they become a Christian.

However as I read on down, I found some other distrubing things:

The director and supervising producer of ONE PUNK UNDER GOD is Jeremy Simmons, whose credits include the television documentaries Sundance Channel′s "TransGeneration" (produced in association with LOGO) and MTV′s "School′s Out: The Life of a Gay High School in Texas" (both GLAAD Award nominees for Outstanding Documentary) and AMC′s "Gay Hollywood." "One Punk, Under God" is produced by Thairin Smothers and executive produced by award-winning filmmakers Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato, founders of film and television production company World of Wonder. As directors/producers, their credits include the documentaries Inside Deep Throat, The Eyes of Tammy Faye, and Party Monster: The Michael Alig Story, as well as the 2003 drama Party Monster. Executive producers for Sundance Channel are Laura Michalchyshyn and Lynne Kirby. Ann Rose is the supervising producer.

If J is serious about his walk with Christ and his church, he needs to get from under the influence of these people.