Heaven, Hell, and the Judgement.

[Nero's Fiddle]

I have recently been entertaining a bit of a debate concerning the Judgement. I ask that you share your ideas and the reasoning behind them, and that you back them up with Biblical references.

Is judgement after death immediate? Do we die only to be spirited directly to Heaven or to Hell, dependent on our acceptance or lack thereof of Christ?

Or is there a time of waiting in unconsciousness for the Great Judgement?

(You needn't attempt to convince me either way. This post is more for the sake of argument than anything else. Thank you very much for your input!)

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Nero,

I have no definitive answer to this question. But here are my thoughts:

We are told there are TWO judgments:

2 Cor 5:8-10 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The context of this appears to be speaking what CHRISTIANS must face. Generally referred to as the Bema Seat Judgment. The following verses appears to support this, referring to "the resurrection of the just":

Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The context of this appears to be speaking of what UNBELIEVERS must face. Generally referred to as the Great White Throne Judgment.

The following verses mention both the resurrections:

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The two judgments appear to follow the FIRST and SECOND RESURRECTIONS.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Problematic scripture I have seen are:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This might elude to a judgment immediately following death. When I consider the following verses, they appear to lend credence to that idea:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Matthew 17:1-4 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Regarding the glorious transfiguration of Jesus, we see that Elijah (Elias) and Moses were both what appears to be their glorified bodies:

Luke 9:30-31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Now I don't think these were just apparitions or spirits, but I believe they were in their "glorified bodies" because the three disciples wanted to build "tabernacles" for each of them. They saw the 2 men with their physical eyes - it wasn't like Paul when Jesus appeared to him, or like the appearance to John of those mentioned in Revelation. This was REAL.

Now we go to 1 Cor 15:

1 Cor 15:35-54 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

From this, I must believe that Elijah and Moses have PUT OFF CORRUPTION, AND PUT ON INCORRUPTION, THEY HAVE PUT OFF MORTAL AND PUT ON IMMORTAL.

This was long before the cross, so what does all that mean? Were they just special cases. That idea might be supported when we read:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

So the physical body (bones?) of Moses may have been recovered by Michael and as the valley of bones Ezekiel saw, was brought to life and changed.

We know that at the "rapture", those who are alive and remain shall be "changed", and thus I believe Elijah was also changed - BECAUSE there is ONLY the "natural" and the "spiritual", and Elijah or anyone else CANNOT enter heaven in an earthly physical body. It HAS to be changed to be like Jesus in His Glorious Resurrected body.

So when is the "judgment of the righteous"? All I can think of in order to assimilate all this is that God is not constrained by the limits imposed by time. So from an earthly POV, there may be some time frame in which ALL shall be judged, but in God's presence, ALL could be judged at the same time.

If anyone can clarify this "mystery" better than this, I would like to hear it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest idolsmasher]

2 judgements, 1@ the ressurection of the just and 1@ the end of the millenium. I happen to believe also that we will for the most part judge ourselves when we stand in God's light and find out how the light we have shown is is extremely pale by comparison. The knowledge of God then will be such that we will be very remourseful over our failings when our whole lives flash before us with all the accompanying thoughts and emotions. It is even possible that we will not only feel our own emotions over our actions, but also that of our loved ones and all the other people we had contact with and interacted with, the good and the bad. In an that instant we will see all the joy and all the pain we have ever caused and we will learn the incredible lessons of life that God has been trying to get through to us all these years. Whew!

I have another question. If the second judgement is the judgement of the unjust, how come God has to check the books to see who's in the Book of Life? If they are all wicked, why would he have to check?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Could this mean that some of them are found written in the book of life and are spared?

[Adstar]

Hello Brothers Good posts

An observation about Hell

Revelations 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the final judgement called the great white throne Judgement Notice it says in verse 13 "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:"

So hell has people already in it before the last judgement. Also Note what verse 14 states:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire."

So Hell is not the lake of fire because after Hell gives up its occupants for the final judgment Hell is itself thrown into the lake of fire. So hell is not a permanent place it is no longer used after the final judgment, It is used prior to the final judgement.

quote Dad Ernie

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Yes that came direct from the Messiah :il:

You will note that the scriptures say:

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

It does not say that heaven will give up anyone for the second judgement why?

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Could it be that at the second coming of the Messiah that all those in paradise with Him will come to earth with Him?

I have no problem with the concept of people being in hell and in heaven before the final judgement It does say:

Quote Dad Ernie

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Note it says "shall all be changed' this is a future event so maybe Moses and Elias where not in their new bodies but appeared as spirits? maybe all those in heaven are not in their new bodies until the second coming?

Well it is something for us to ponder in our hearts

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[OneAccord]

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All I can think of in order to assimilate all this is that God is not constrained by the limits imposed by time. So from an earthly POV, there may be some time frame in which ALL shall be judged, but in God's presence, ALL could be judged at the same time.

I think you touched on something very important concerning the timing of everything right here, Dad Ernie, and that is the difference between eternity and time.

I believe that here on earth we are constrained by a dimension of time that happens in a linear, consecutive order. Here in time, God's plan has to be fulfilled according to appointed times, seasons ans fulfillments.

Outside of time, in heaven or eternity these constraints may no longer exist. For example, the Cross may be a fixed point in eternity happening continually, yesterday, today, and forever. Likewise, the judgement.......

Just some further thoughts to throw into this conversation.

Everyone who has responded has made some excellents and thought-provoking posts.

Adstar:

Your post on Rev 20 was especially good. It gives me a lot of fuel for some deeper Bible study.

Idolsmasher:

Wow! If I have to even think about all the pain I may have caused others in my lifetime, much less feel it, that would certainly be an intense judgement....interesting thoughts.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Idolsmasher,

I have another question. If the second judgement is the judgement of the unjust, how come God has to check the books to see who's in the Book of Life? If they are all wicked, why would he have to check?

Could this mean that some of them are found written in the book of life and are spared?

I believe that when both believers and unbelievers are judged there shall be absolutely no excuse because everything was written down in the Books. It will reveal why the saved are saved and why the unbelievers shall receive their punishment.

To support this, I do not see the Gospel message being preached during the Mill. reign of Christ. The nations are required to do homage to Christ, but once Satan is released again, all nations shall come against Christ and His saints.

Also, I do not see our Lord leaving any of His behind at the first resurrection/rapture. The Bride will be complete and beautiful. It does say that the saints shall reign with Him for 1,000 years. I don't think the nations will produce any SAINTS that will reign during those 1,000 years.

BTW, Good responses everyone.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest idolsmasher]

I believe that when both believers and unbelievers are judged there shall be absolutely no excuse because everything was written down in the Books. It will reveal why the saved are saved and why the unbelievers shall receive their punishment.

But is it possible that there is a third class of the "unsaved spared" that are found writen in the books that will live on but still be unsaved? Is there a class of the unsaved who will be given another chance for some reason written in the books. It's clear that even on the "new earth" after the millenium that there is a different class living outside the city of the saved, "the "New Jerusalem".

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Who is this unsaved class of people living on the new earth?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Idolsmasher,

But is it possible that there is a third class of the "unsaved spared" that are found writen in the books that will live on but still be unsaved? Is there a class of the unsaved who will be given another chance for some reason written in the books. It's clear that even on the "new earth" after the millenium that there is a different class living outside the city of the saved, "the "New Jerusalem".

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Who is this unsaved class of people living on the new earth?

Rev 22:6 closes out the prophecy describing the New Jerusalem.

Then beginning with vs. 7 we see: "Behold I come quickly" and again in vs. 12. I believe this sets the time frame for those verses you question. It is a rehash or insistence on being prepared for the Lord's coming.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest idolsmasher]

But in the verses I quoted, it is talking about inside and outside the city of the saved, "New Jerusalem" which comes down from heaven "after" the millenium. This would seem to indicate there are unsaved people on the earth "after" the 2nd judgement.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Idolsmasher,

I think what you have said just "clicked". In Rev 21:1, there is a New Heaven and a New Earth. To me this has registered as AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment and the end of the Mill reign of Christ. Now you have made me re-evaluate those chapters again. Thank you for pushing me.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie