Smalcald Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted December 30, 2006 The bible is both inspired and without error for one reason, it alone brings us the Gospel of Christ, which alone has the power to bring people to faith in Christ. The inspiration of the bible is shown by the bible itself and its power to bring us the pure Gospel. We do not need men standing at the doorstep holding this Gospel away from the believers, locking it away, and actually discouraging people from reading the Gospel. Now, the Christian Church prior to the split between the Eastern Church and the Bishop of Rome, or the modern Catholic Church ( a subset of the historical church), did indeed play a critical role in establishing the bible. But how did this Church led by the Holy Spirit, decide which books should be included in the New Testament? Very simply they looked at which books had the power to convert people, which ones had the Holy Spirit! So yes the historical Christian Church was critical. The modern Catholic Church led by the Bishop of Rome, cannot of course lay claim to be that sole historical Christian Church (although it is certainly part of that Church). If we are going to only rely on historical succession to make a case for the validity of a Christian tradition, the Eastern Church would have a stronger claim to that mantle then Rome. The first Christians and indeed Peter, were found in Jerusalem and in Asia Minor, those places were and are part of the Eastern Orthodox Tradition. In addition they are organized around Bishops, as we see presented in the first writings about the Church, which never included any concept of a Papacy. We have little historical evidence that Peter ever even went to Rome. But the OP is right in one thing, we must trust that the first Church was guided by the Holy Spirit, and I do, as we see the result in that beautiful Book. This Church also protected the faith from a series of heresies so I think we must all be thankful for this historical Church of which Rome is certainly a part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted December 30, 2006 There is no doubt that the Lord Christ Himself founded the Catholic Church, but I know that the preparation of the heart in man, and the reply of the tongue is of The Lord. I know that man's goings are of the Lord also, such that every place I put my feet to the ground was ordained of God before He laid the foundations of the earth. I feel the presence of the Spirit of God when others pray. I attend an independent baptist church, not Catholic, because the Spirit of the Lord drew me there. I love this church because I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit when the preacher is in the pulpit, not just in a mild way, but strongly. The presence of the Lord here is unmistakeable. My wife is directly descended from the original protestants who were co-protestant with Luther, and has a compelling family history of the protestant reformation. If the Catholic Church were a tad more holy and more inclined to adhere to the Word of God, Martin Luther would never have had to staple his 95 grievances to the door of the parish church. Indeed, the Catholic Church is of the Lord, or it would not still exist, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, but it must be understood that those who are Protestant who call upon the name of the Lord and believe upon His Holy Name shall be saved along with any true Catholic. This applies also to certain baptists who claim that their ways predate the Catholic Church going back to John the Baptist. Any man who believes that Jesus is the Christ of God and confesses the same to witnesses will be saved, church membership being irrelevant. Baptist and Catholic and Protestant will in the end of all things prove to be nothing more than logos, like brand names on the items of daily living. This inter demominational bashing is irksome. Are we of the Lord? "Ye must be born again." Are we found in Christ, in the faith, or just blowing hot air? Truly, there is some authority in the Catholic Church, but it certainly does not equal the authority of God, nor even approach it. The Bereans, being of more noble character, searched the scriptures daily to "see if these things were so". Scripture is the yardstick by which all things allegedly of God are to be measured, as men are liars and cannot be trusted. The Lord has determined exactly where everyman should live, where each should go to worship, and has grafted each into the vine at His own discretion. No man comes to Christ unless the Father calls him, and no man comes to the Father except by Christ, and no man has Christ save those in whom is found the Spirit of God. We who believe are all Christ's, brand names coming to naught in the end. The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It was not founded by Jesus Christ. The CHURCH of Jesus Christ was founded by Jesus Christ, and the Catholic Church bears no resemblance to the first churches in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted December 31, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.01 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted December 31, 2006 Why should the Bible be taken as a rule of faith at all, let alone as the sole rule of faith? Why do you accept the Bible as inspired, because the Bible can be taken as a rule of faith only if it is first held to be inspired and thus inerrant. Some may say he accepts the Bible as inspired (whatever that means to him) for some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted December 31, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.01 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted December 31, 2006 The Catholic believes in inspiration because the Church tells him so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherTraveler Posted December 31, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,595 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 31, 2006 As Augustine said, “I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic church did not move me to do so.” It is just Augustine's good fortune that the gospel was approved (sort of) by the Catholic Church. I would not be so trusting of them personally. The Spirit of truth validates truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candi770 Posted December 31, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 119 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,316 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/01/1970 Share Posted December 31, 2006 Why should the Bible be taken as a rule of faith at all, let alone as the sole rule of faith? Why do you accept the Bible as inspired, because the Bible can be taken as a rule of faith only if it is first held to be inspired and thus inerrant. Some may say he accepts the Bible as inspired (whatever that means to him) for some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benobi1 Posted December 31, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/11/1976 Share Posted December 31, 2006 However, the Lord Jesus Christ is the head of THE church, no denomination. Unless you mean the definition of Catholic that is universal church. Which has lost some of it's hold since Catholic became known primarily as a specific denomination. The early Christians were just that, christian. Not Catholic Christians, or Protestant Christians, Jewish Christians, Methodist Christians. Simply Christian. Forgive me if I have made assumptions. I intend no offense. In His Mighty Grip, Bib Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 31, 2006 Closed, I'm sorry but the intent of this thread appears to be Catholic Apologetics. The Focus of this Ministrty is Jesus Christ and not a singular Denomination. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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