Sinful passions aroused by the law

[OneAccord]

7:5 -

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

7:6 -

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

7:7 -

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."

7:8 -

But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

7:9 -

I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

7:10 -

And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

7:11 -

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

7:12 -

Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

7:13 -

Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

I just read this this morning and am trying to figure this out. It seems that the commandment or law gave sin occasion to produce death.

I was reminded as I read this of the Garden of Eden, how the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the object of the only commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve, and serpent took opportunity through the commandment to decieve them, and produced death in them.

Then later the Law was given to the children of Israel, and then "when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died......"

I find this a very interesting relationship between the giving of the Law or commandments and the presence of sin leading to death. Sin appears to actually use the commandments to kill us.

There are some real jewels hidden in these passages, has anyone else considered them deeply? I'd love to see some commentary on this portion of scripture. Thanks in advance.....

[His son]

I believe you have to add into this mix the sins of ignorance. God being pure justice He couldn't hold us accountable for the choices we make unless we knew what the choices are, and the results, hence the law. We are made aware of what is sin, but that knowledge in and of itself does not empower us to totally resist sin. So another purpose of the law comes into play: It acts as a fence on both sides of the narrow path to keep us going in the proper direction until the coming of Christ into our lives as Paul indicates in his school master Scripture. Mind you this fence is not right next to the path, and it is climable. We had no freewill power to totally resist sin because satan is the lord of this world, and we are his subjects. Christ came, and took away his lordship over our freewills, and returned us to the place of Adam, and Eve in The Garden, and we once again have the freewill to choose who we will obey, God or satan. And so now we do have the freewill power to resist all satans wiles, and The extra empowerment to carry out those freewill choices in that God desires to dwell in us in His fulness. I am assuming here that you know your Bible, and the Scriptures that I refer to with my statements.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings OneAccord,

The following is from the FREE Bible Program E-Sword:

Barnes

Romans 7 -

Few chapters in the bible have been the subject of more decidedly different interpretations than this. And after all that has been written on it by the learned, it is still made a matter of discussion, whether the apostle has reference in the main scope of the chapter to his own experience before he became a Christian; or to the conflicts in the mind of a man who is renewed. Which of these opinions is the correct one I shall endeavor to state in the notes at the particular verses in the chapter. The main design of the chapter is not very difficult to understand. It is, evidently, to show the insufficiency of the Law to produce peace of mind to a troubled sinner. In the previous chapters he had shown that it was incapable of producing justification, Rom. 1

[OneAccord]

His son

Thanks for your post. I'm not so sure what you mean by sins of ignorance although maybe Paul is saying something about this in verse 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

I like what you said about the law being a fence on both sides of the narrow road. I have referred to it as the plumbline, the absoultely straight and true line by which all else is measured by and found to be crooked....

I agree also that a person in sin is one of Satan's subjects, bound, until deliverance by Christ.

Dad Ernie:

Thank you for the commentaries. I read them through and they gave a pretty general picture of this chapter which is always helpful to have an overview.

What I specifically want to address here are the portions of scripture that I outlined in bold.

It almost makes it sounds like sin is an entity here who took great opportunity and occasion through the commandment.

It sounds like the Law gave Satan more occasion and opportunity to decieve and produce death (kill). In other words, the Law empowered Satan. Can you see what I am trying to get at?

I believe that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is possibly a type of the Law, and the serpent a type of sin.

Think of these verses as if Adam were speaking rather than Paul.

7:9 -

I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

7:10 -

And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

7:11 -

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

7:12 -

Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

7:13 -

Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

[homebild]

"It sounds like the Law gave Satan more occasion and opportunity to decieve and produce death (kill). In other words, the Law empowered Satan..."

In a sense I suppose this is true.

Remember Paul said that were there is no law sin is not taken into account:

Romans 5:13

for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Or put in practical terms, if there is no law against recklessly driving at 120mph on a winding stretch of road does not mean that driving at 120mph is prudent or acceptable....It just means that anyone driving at that speed cannot be punished for their reckless behavior. There is no law to punish their offense.

But once a law is enacted so that driving above 25mph on that same stretch of road becomes a crime, then anyone driving 120mph can be prosecuted and and suffer the consequences of their bad behavior.

So in a sense, the Law perhaps did make Satan the 'prosecutor' for the Law against all types of sinful behavior. After all, somewhere in scripture he is refered to as the 'accuser of the bretheran'.

The whole purpose of law in general is to try to get people to change because of their bad behavior.

The Law of Moses was given to declare all men sinful and guilty so that there could be a change of behavior to become a new man in Christ.

[sagz4Christ]

I wonder after reading this, that if God had not told Adam to "not eat from the tree of knwledge of good and evil," would Adam have eaten? Would it even have crossed his mind? I don't know.

I am reminded of a couple of life examples...

A child in the kitchen with a boiling pot of water on the stove. You say to the child, "Now don't touch that pot, it will burn you really bad!"

What does the child do? Looks at the pot, and you can see in their mind that they are thinking...I wonder if that is true. I should touch the pot to see if that is true...

What happens? They touch the pot and wind up with a bandage on their hands!

Another example is found at resturants. I do this ALL the time. The server comes out with a steaming hot plate of food wearing oven mittens. leaning over me, they reach to put the plate in front of me, and as I reach for the plate to help them, they stop and tell me, "Don't touch this plate, it is hot, it will burn you."

I let them put the plate down, and immediately, and sometimes I wait till they leave so they don't see me, I grab the plate and "adjust it." In actuality, I am seeing exactly how hot the plate is. I usually end up with a sore hand! Will I ever learn?

7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

I don't know....probably not though.

It almost makes it sounds like sin is an entity here who took great opportunity and occasion through the commandment.

It sounds like the Law gave Satan more occasion and opportunity to decieve and produce death (kill). In other words, the Law empowered Satan. Can you see what I am trying to get at?

I don't know if I understand what you are saying. I would not say that sin is an entity in and of itself. Like an angel controlled by satan. I would say that sin is a vehicle by which satan uses to condem us. Though to be sure, we also condem ourselves without satan's help!

I don't think that is what the Law was intended for either. As you said earlier, the Law is the plumbline by which everything else is judged to standard. This brings to mind an aspect of the Law being that which helps us realize our desperate need for reliance on God. This is what I believe the Law was intended for. Look at the greatest commandment,

"love the Lord your God with all you heart, all your mind, all your strength and all your soul." (paraphrased)

Without the Law, and without the ability to choose for or against it and without the knowledge of our utter failure at it, how can we hope to fulfill this, the greatest commandment?

I believe that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is possibly a type of the Law, and the serpent a type of sin.

I am not seeing where you are coming from.

I don't see how the Tree could be a "type of the Law, and the serpent a type of sin."

Allow me to give my understanding of the following verses as coming from Adam...my comments will be in blue.

Romans

7:9 -

I was alive once without the law (Gen 2:16-17; And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.") , but when the commandment came (see above), sin revived (will I really die?  I wonder what the fruit tastes like!)  (James 1:14-15; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.)and I died.

7:10 -

And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

7:11 -

For sin (James 1:14-15), taking occasion by the commandment (the serpent), deceived me (the serpent), and by it killed me.

7:12 -

Therefore the law (Genesis 2:16-17) is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

7:13 -

Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin (James 1:14-15), that it might appear sin (that I might know my weakness and turn to God for reliance and strength), was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. (I lost my thought....I need help with this last part and probably the whole thing!)

Ok. I got lost in my own thoughts, but will post this just the same to get these thoughts out and corrected. I hope that I helped to answer something, if not to show just how inept I am with theology.

*sighs and walks out of the room*

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings OA,

It almost makes it sounds like sin is an entity here who took great opportunity and occasion through the commandment.

It sounds like the Law gave Satan more occasion and opportunity to decieve and produce death (kill). In other words, the Law empowered Satan. Can you see what I am trying to get at?

It appears you are trying to blame Satan for all of mankinds ills. That is not true. He is the bad guy, but all he can do is hold out the apple. We are the ones who are tempted to sin. It is our "nature" to push God to the limits, just like kids try to push their parents.

For 1,000 years Satan is going to be locked up. During that time all the nations are supposed to pay homage to Christ. But it is said that those who don't shall face the WRATH of God. So you see it is US that sin, and we individually are held accoutable to God for OUR OWN sin.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest idolsmasher]

In other words, the Law empowered Satan.

Very interesting! I think you've really hit on something here! The devil stands as the accuser of the saints, the prosecuting attorney who says continually to God, "they've broken the law, now you must judge them. He is the enforcer of the law of sin and death. Whew! Thank God we are no longer under the law.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The devil is not cast out yet, this appears to take place in the time of the tribulation if you notice the 6th verse and the reference to the 3 1/2 years and again in the 14th verse the "time, and times, and half a time" also refers to the 3 1/2 year tribulation. When the devil sees that using the law no longer works and God has cast him out, he throws a fit of fury and wrath, and the result is the tribulation.

[Guest Teri]

One Accord this is so funny. I was reading all of this here yesturday and you really got me thinking about it. Anyway I come home last night and my husband says don't go into the garage. Now I never go into the garage, it's his domain and if I need something I send one of the kids. I don't think I've been in the garage since last spring. So I said I never go into the garage, so why would I go in there now. So he tells me him and kids went christmas shopping and my present is in the garage so don't go in there. Well guess what now temptation is in the garage and I have a desire to sneak a peek. I instantly thought of you and this thread and started laughing, so instead of going into the garage I think I'll re-read Romans. So now I have that tree in my garage for another 21 days. Pray that I can resist the temptation.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[OneAccord]

Good analogy, Teri. Maybe we can use it as this discussion progresses, if you don't mind.......

Idolsmasher:

The devil stands as the accuser of the saints, the prosecuting attorney who says continually to God, "they've broken the law, now you must judge them. He is the enforcer of the law of sin and death.

The devil is the accuser, yes, as we see in the opening verses of Job 1.

He is also given power to wreak havoc on the lives of the saints and righteous ones like Job.

He is also the tempter, and we are to pray that we are not led into temptation.

But then, what is sin? It seems as though it is this disease or cancerous entity that abides in the flesh/carnal nature of man.

Is it a tool of Satan's? Does he use this inherant sin nature to bind us, kill us, destroy us?

In the above verses, Paul personifies sin as though it were a conscious entity within us. And the law gave sin more opportunity to kill.

Look at verse 7:5 : The law arouses the sinful passions.......

7:8 the law gave sin opportunity to produce in him all manner of evil desire........

7:9 sin was dead apart from the law, but when the law came, sin revived and he (Paul) died...

7:11 the law gave sin occasion to decieve and kill him.....

7:12 Through the law, sin became exceedingly sinful......

Why did the giving of the Law cause sin to become extremely sinful???????

What does it mean that sin is dead apart from the Law? Is the Law dead apart from sin as well?

The Law was given only to Israel, does this mean that sin is dead elsewhere where they never even heard of the Law?

Is sin dead in a small child unable to comprehend the Law?

What about the righteous ones before the Law, Abraham, Noah, Job........It appears that Job was capable of sinning against God but restrained himself despite a direct and violent attack by Satan........If the Law had come to Job would he have sinned? Or was sin dead apart from the law?

I'm finding this very complex and have been mulling it over for days but can't seem to grasp this one.