The Watchmaker

[SaturnV]

To you this may just be a game but to us it will have eternal consequences, old man, eternal consequences and we weep for you!

I weep too-for those who shut their minds to the wonders of the Universe and refuse to see it in all its glory. I weep for the future generations of Americans whose right to an education is being threatened by those who would force religion into their science class. Most of all, however, I weep when I think of the consequences that will have for our great nation.

You are right, Joe-this issue has very serious consequences. The Creationist lobby is seeking to undermine science education in schools and circumvent the separation of Church and State that is enshrined in the Constitution (something near and dear to my heart). The next generation of Americans are being used as pawns in an attempt to remake America into fundamentalist Christianity's image of a "Christian Nation." The Founding Fathers would no doubt be appalled, to say the least.

So it's not a game to us either. And to the fundamentalists who no doubt take exception to the indignation coming your way, just remember that you cast the first stone when you tried to force Christianity into the classroom.

[Guest]

Our tears are for the lost and the hopeless and the proud! We take no pleasure in the Wrath to Come and come it will!

I do still have hope for those who shut their minds to The Wonders of The Creation and who are blind to the reflection of The Glory of The Creator!

"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;" (Psalms 8:3)

" For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20)

It is with sadness that I read your gleeful thoughts on some possible future indignation over, I guess, the substitution of factual science with the evolution fable, a religious tenet of the Elitist Atheist.

I believe indignation will shortly be the least of the problems in The USA!

I certainly take no joy in the current accelerating breakdown in law and order caused by our rebellion against God. Anarchy will trump the veneer of civilization in a heartbeat.

"For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind:....." (Hosea 8:7)

You have probably guessed by now that I'm blessed to be a foundational Christian who believes The Bible and who rests my all on Jesus.

I see a little of what you believe in.

How about sharing with us a little more of your core beliefs.

Also, let us know what you hope to receive from your time here at Worthy!

[SaturnV]

Our tears are for the lost and the hopeless and the proud! We take no pleasure in the Wrath to Come and come it will!

I do still have hope for those who shut their minds to The Wonders of The Creation and who are blind to the reflection of The Glory of The Creator!

I do not doubt that you view the world with a degree of wonder. However, you seem content to believe in a God whose creation is limited by the bounds of one Book. Why not accept that Creation that is more wonderful than Abraham, Moses or the Apostles could have begun to imagine? They, after all, only had their eyes to go on. If the authors of the Bible had the Hubble telescope, the MRI, or tunneling electron microscopes in their time, I am sure the Bible would be quite different.

It is with sadness that I read your gleeful thoughts on some possible future indignation over, I guess, the substitution of factual science with the evolution fable, a religious tenet of the Elitist Atheist.

You misunderstand me. My manner might have been a bit terse, but I am not at all gleeful about a confrontation between religion and science. What you believe, and what do in your home or church really doesn't concern me. I was merely pointing out that I, like many others, are upset by the Creationist lobby's attempt to subvert the Constitution and public education in order to further their religious beliefs. That is why the Evolution issue tends to get me a bit riled up-pseudoscience is being used as a "wedge" (the Discovery Institute's words) to open the classroom to religious teaching.

As for Evolution being the "religious tenet of the Elitist Atheist," I seriously would like to know why you believe that. Firstly, I do not consider myself superior to anyone. I am made of the same flesh and blood as you, I am human, and I am fallible. The scientific method teaches that our understanding is perpetually incomplete, and that there are many things we simply do not yet know. It also teaches that anything we know today may be proven wrong tomorrow. If scientific evidence refuted the Theory of Gravity, Atomic Theory, or yes, even the Theory of Evolution, scientists would revise or even abandon said theory as the weight of evidence would dictate. Can you say the same of your religious beliefs? Or do you simply believe that will never happen?

I would also like to see the "factual science" that you claim to have, as I have not yet come by it in any peer-reviewed, scholarly journal.

You have probably guessed by now that I'm blessed to be a foundational Christian who believes The Bible and who rests my all on Jesus.

I see a little of what you believe in.

Indeed, I surmised that from your response to Questioner. I take it "foundational Christian" means that you believe in Creationism and a literal interpretation of the Bible. I use the term "fundamentalist" in this regard, although I know that term has connotations of evangelism as well. I hope you do not take exception to my use of the word, I am only attempting to differentiate between Christians who believe in a literal Bible and those who do not.

How about sharing with us a little more of your core beliefs.

Also, let us know what you hope to receive from your time here at Worthy!

Certainly. I have a reverence for the Universe that probably borders on pantheism, but you can safely call me an atheist. I was raised Catholic and used to consider myself a devout Christian, but I began questioning my faith more and more over the years. When I finally asked myself point-blank whether God existed, It took about a year of agonizing over the question, reading the Bible, analyzing the evidence (both scientific and scriptural), and self reflection to make up my mind.

If you want to know what finally decided the question, it was holding a blob of DNA in my hand after isolating it in a lab. I was holding a chemical compound that I had isolated by chemical means, and yet that compound was the basis of all life on Earth-from the strawberries I isolated it from, to my pet cat, to myself. It was both humbling and grand at the same time. I realize that same experience could have just as easily made a believer out of me, and why it led me in the opposite direction is not easy to explain. I suppose you could call it a revelation.

As for why I'm here, even though I no longer consider myself a Christian, I still find the Christian perspective interesting. There are also a few interesting Biblical questions my Religious Studies classes didn't touch on that I'd like to discuss.

The Faith/Science threads are the only ones where you'll see me passionately argue, as I believe science and education hold the key to bettering the Human condition.

Cheers!

[Guest]

[cjrose]

Our tears are for the lost and the hopeless and the proud! We take no pleasure in the Wrath to Come and come it will!

Please ease up with the fear mongering.

I do still have hope for those who shut their minds to The Wonders of The Creation and who are blind to the reflection of The Glory of The Creator!

"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;" (Psalms 8:3)

" For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20)

So is god perfect or did he create life? Because with all of the design flaws those two things are mutually exclusive.

You see the flaws, we see the beauty.

[SaturnV]

You see the flaws, we see the beauty.

And some see the beauty of a work still in progress

[cjrose]

You see the flaws, we see the beauty.

And some see the beauty of a work still in progress

well now that's just being redundant j/k you and I know what it means to be a work in progress but with the statement I refered to, thought it best to keep it simple.

It's all perspective.

[Guest]

The Faith/Science threads are the only ones where you'll see me passionately argue, as I believe science and education hold the key to bettering the Human condition.

The Human Condition, Sin......

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." (Psalms 14:1)

Today and Tomorrow!

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

"All these are the beginning of sorrows." (Matthew 24:5-8)

Jesus, The Way, The Truth and The Life! Hope for Sin, The Human Condition.....

"And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." (Numbers 21:9)

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-15)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

[SaturnV]

I was referring more to poverty, famine, pollution, and the like. Those are problems we can actually solve if we try.

[Guest]

I was referring more to poverty, famine, pollution, and the like. Those are problems we can actually solve if we try.