Guest Teri Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Endure, I'm not sure what your point is here. Could you throw your opinion or point in with the scripture. We need to be careful when drawing conclusions about things. It would be easy for me to say that someone is going through a tough time, or point out they are experiencing discipline from the Lord while the trial is going on but then I'm afraid I may be wrong and put on the same level with Jobs friends. I like tsth have alot of questions. Abraham was a liar, and the funny thing about that is God did not go after Abraham on it but the Pharoh to hand back his wife. Genesis 12:17 But the Lord inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram's wife Sarai. And what is really strange is Abraham actually benefited from his lie. Genesis 12:16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels. Genesis 12:20 Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had. Proverbs 16, God hates a lying tongue. I guess I at this point but it's subject to change would have to go with the tree gave us this knowledge of good and evil and we then like tsth said make a choice as to which we prefer. Sorry back to the IF. What I can gather at this point in the dicussion is God did not say IF you follow my commands you will be perfect but He did say blessed. Blessed meaning take possession of the land, foreshadow eternity. Not meaning blessed in that your life here will be a bed of roses. Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations, but he never saw it on this side of glory. If your heart turns away and you do not listen you will perish, not meaning you will not have anything here but you will spend eternity in hell. Unsaved people prosper here so I would have to say the blessing is in the fact that we get to spend eternity with Christ. Abide in Christ's love meaning the knowledge that no matter what happens here, that IF I stay the course, finish the race and keep with Christ I will be going to be feasting at a banquet laid out by the king of the universe. Wickedness, anything outside of God's will? There are even those who do not follow the spirit but do all kinds of good deeds. Would they be considered wicked because what they do is for the boasting of it, not for the glory of God? Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. I want to clearly say here I am in no way saying my opinion in any of this is final and I like tsth am chasing this thing. I'm thinking out loud and find this quite interesting. In Yeshua's love Teri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted December 13, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 13, 2003 Ok Teri, so now I go to the thread "Without Spot or Wrinkle". The Word I was given this morning goes with this and that as well. I posted it. Take a look if you wouldn't mind, I'd love to speak of these things, they are burning within! I find that these are the defining factors of blessing/cursing, righteousness/wickedness. Spot or Wrinkle Thanks! I must clarify endure, (if I may), he is only desiring obedience to the Word as well. There is no contention toward you Teri, nor me. He is in agreement with me here. Just wanted to clarify, so that there are no hard feelings. Forgive me Endure, if I spoke out of turn? I just reread what Endure wrote........it is exactly what I posted in the link above, I TRULY had no idea! We were hearing the same things! It is about the defining factor, "obedience"! Do we believe to the point of obeying? In His LOve, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teri Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Hey Tsth, are you referring to Dueteronomy 30:15? I have to tell you I have spent the morning now bouncing between all these threads and there is something there but I feel like it's on the edge of my brain. As for endure, thanks but I wasn't worried about him having contentions, I just want to pick his brain on all of this. I wrote what I wrote at the end because sometimes people get a little upset and as far as I can tell we are in the figuring out stage so any responses to this would be great, but not to get it into a personal attack thing because I'm thinking out loud. Sometimes whole threads get off course because it turns into this mud slinging thing and well you know how that goes. So Endure are you holding the thread that will unravel all this for us? I feel like I'm coming up with more questions than answers. In Yeshua's love Teri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted December 13, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Hi Teri! May you be blessed by our Lord and Savior! Endure, I'm not sure what your point is here. Could you throw your opinion or point in with the scripture. I am not sure what opinions I can add to what God said! If God said something, it is absolute truth and we have no room to debate or question it. I guess I at this point but it's subject to change would have to go with the tree gave us this knowledge of good and evil and we then like tsth said make a choice as to which we prefer. Sorry back to the IF. What I can gather at this point in the dicussion is God did not say IF you follow my commands you will be perfect but He did say blessed. Blessed meaning take possession of the land, foreshadow eternity. Not meaning blessed in that your life here will be a bed of roses. Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations, but he never saw it on this side of glory. I want to comment on the underlined portion of your comments here. The OT as a whole is a forshadowing of not only Jesus the Messiah, but the covenant that He made with us under grace as well! God brought them out of slavery through miracles (there is Jesus), and after He did that, the ones that disobeyed were destroyed. And when the nation as a whole rejected the covenant because of what is called 'uncircumsized hearts', God sent armies against them, drove them out of the land, and destroyed the temple. This actually happened twice, right? So God's promises are clearly conditional upon our obedience to Him and His commands! He tells us this all over the Bible and we need to accept the good promises of God along with the negative promises of God. I would suggest reading all of Deuteronomy to get a clear understanding. If your heart turns away and you do not listen you will perish, not meaning you will not have anything here but you will spend eternity in hell. Unsaved people prosper here so I would have to say the blessing is in the fact that we get to spend eternity with Christ. Abide in Christ's love meaning the knowledge that no matter what happens here, that IF I stay the course, finish the race and keep with Christ I will be going to be feasting at a banquet laid out by the king of the universe. I tend to think that the usaved and wicked people have an apparence of prosperity. We know that we have the true peace in our lives--we know God (or as Paul put it, are known by God!). I enjoy discussing things like these! As for endure, thanks but I wasn't worried about him having contentions, I just want to pick his brain on all of this. I wrote what I wrote at the end because sometimes people get a little upset and as far as I can tell we are in the figuring out stage so any responses to this would be great, but not to get it into a personal attack thing because I'm thinking out loud. Sometimes whole threads get off course because it turns into this mud slinging thing and well you know how that goes. So Endure are you holding the thread that will unravel all this for us? I feel like I'm coming up with more questions than answers. You can pick my brain all day and night! I really like to talk about the Lord and the Bible. My main point is that we can live a holy and pleasing life before our Lord IF (there is that "IF" word again~ ), we are willing to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. But we must meet the conditions found in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Journey Posted December 13, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 582 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/19/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1970 Share Posted December 13, 2003 "If you keep my commands, you'll remain intimately at home in my love. That's what I've done--kept my Father's commands and made myself at home in his love." The Message Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teri Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Endure I'm going to take your advise and go back and read Dueteronomy again. I'll have to get back to you as I have to work all weekend. Then of course there's church, husband and children. So I sure hope this thread stays up until Monday. This is really fun and interesting, and I will much enjoy picking your brain. In Yeshua's love Teri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted December 14, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Endure I'm going to take your advise and go back and read Dueteronomy again. I'll have to get back to you as I have to work all weekend. Then of course there's church, husband and children. So I sure hope this thread stays up until Monday. This is really fun and interesting, and I will much enjoy picking your brain. In Yeshua's love Teri Hi Teri! I just used Deuteronomy because it is filled with obvious conditional promises of God to the Israelites. As you read it, make sure to look to see the many times that God says "If you do this, I will do that." I was thoroughly amazed at it my own self. And please take note that Hebrews 13 has God making the promise of "I will never leave you nor forsake you." This is actually a quote from Deuteronomy and the context is not an unconditional "never leave nor forsake", but is actually a promise that if someone does leave or forsake Him (through unbelief--the opposite of faith), they will also be forsaken by God. My main reason for starting this thread is just that exact point. We are justified and saved by our faith, and we can abandon that faith and therefore........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teri Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 So Jake what your basically saying is OSAS is wrong, your going to get a bunch of people upset. LOL. I just jumped in here to make sure this doesn't get lost before I'm done reading. In Yeshua's love Teri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted December 15, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted December 15, 2003 So Jake what your basically saying is OSAS is wrong, your going to get a bunch of people upset. LOL. I just jumped in here to make sure this doesn't get lost before I'm done reading. In Yeshua's love Teri Hi Teri. I would just like to remind you of the fact that God's word goes to such great lengths to show us that GOD HATES SIN!!! There was no OSAS before the fall--In Genesis 2:17 God told Adam that if he sinned, he would die. There was no OSAS in the OT covenant--Ezekiel 18 clearly says that if a righteous person turns away from righteousness, his soul will die. There will be no OSAS during the tribulation--Revelation 14 says that if a saint (Christian) receives the mark of the beast he will be tormented forever with the flames from the lake of fire. There was no OSAS for The Apostle Judas Iscariot--he was called a spiritual brother of Jesus (Matthew 12:48-50), had his name in the book of life (Luke 10:20), and ended up in hell (John 17:12, Mark 14:21). There are clear warnings issued to Christians that it is still possible for them to end up in the lake of fire as well; here is a list of things that can happen to a Christian, who has been born-again and sealed and justified.... * Refusal to do the will of the Father in heaven (Matthew 7:22) * Fall away (Matthew 11:6; Mark 14:27-29) * Refusal to change and be humble (Matthew 18:1-3) * Wander away (Matthew 18:12-13) * Unfruitfulness (Matthew 21:33-46) * Turn away from the faith (Matthew 24:10) * Not standing firm to the end (Matthew 24:13) * Disobedience (Matthew 24:42-51) * Be told 'I don't know you' by Jesus because one was not ready (Matthew 25:1-13) * Stop believing and fall away in the time of testing (Luke 8:13) * Lose your saltiness (Luke 14:34, 35) * Turn back and no longer follow Jesus (John 6:66) * Be like a branch that is thrown away and wither in the fire and burned (John 15:6) * Go astray (John 16:1) * Be broken off because of unbelief (Romans 11:20) * Wickedness, sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, male prostitution, homosexuality, theft, greed, drunkenness, slandering and swindling (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) * Fall from grace to the point that Jesus is no longer of any value to you (Galatians 5:4) * Sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness and orgies (Galatians 5:19-21) * Immorality, impurity, greed and idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) * Sexual immorality and lust (1 Thessalonians 4:3) * Wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Timothy 1:5,6) * Have your faith shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19) * Wander away from the faith (1 Timothy 6:10, 21) * Turn away to follow Satan (1 Timothy 4:1) * Depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1) * Wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Timothy 2:18) * Turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Timothy 4:4) * Drift away to Transgression and disobedience (Hebrews 2:1-3) * Acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Hebrews 3:12) * Not making every effort to enter God's rest and fall short (Hebrews 4:11) * Fall away to the point where you can't be renewed to repentance (Hebrews 6:6) * Turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Hebrews 12:25) * Be carried away by all kids of strange teachings (Hebrews 13:9) * Leave the straight and narrow way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Peter 2:15) * Be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Peter 3:17) * Not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2:10, 11) * Become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Revelation 3:15, 16) * Receiving the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-14) * Cowardness, unbelief, vileness, murder, sexually immorality, practicing magic arts, idolatry and lying (Revelation 21:8) * Have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Revelation 22:19) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted December 15, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 15, 2003 Hello Sweet Sister Suzanne, I have always told my children that the biggest word in the Bible is "if." It is amazing that so many people fail to recognize the word and its purpose in scripture. However, in the technological world it has great significance. In computer programing there is a command "if/then." It basically tells the computer that "if" such and such exists or takes place, "then" do the appropriate response. It brings us the realization that there are requirements in the bible for certain things to happen. Especially if we wish to be called a disciple of Jesus Christ. That was what they referred to themselves as, "disciples," until the phrase "Christians" took over. However, the phrase "Christians" was originally meant to be a derogative slur against the followers of Jesus. Here are a couple of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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