Emily~Anne Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 146 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,308 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 Obviosly I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have already been addressed. What I don't understand is people who think keeping the 10 Commandments is legalism. The look at it as trying to work your way to heaven. To me, this is rediculous. The 10 Commandments are a standard by which we can know if we are sinning. We can't work our way tp heaven by keeping them. No one is saying that biblically named sins are not sins. It's when people call sin those things which are not named as sin which is legalism. It is for an outward show of pirty. God gives us freedom in many areas...dress is one of them, except He sdoes say we must be modest, and must not cross-dress, which is a sexual perversion, a fetish. But where does God say exactly what would qualify as cross-dressing for each gender? OH YEAH!! He doesn't tell us. Now, let's apply the principle from Exodus where God didn't tell them what "mountain" was, thier spiritual leadership did... and all the scriptures in the New Testament about obeying your spiritual authorieis, for they watch for your soul, etc... hmmm.... Maybe our leadership should make some boundaries and tell us what they think crossdressing and immodesty is.... There is alot the bible doesn't specifically cover, and I think in such areas, we are expected to just do our best. For example, God does not dictate specifically what is men's clothing and what is women's clothing. And yes it does vary from culture to culture which is beside the point here. Scripture does clearly tell us that God appreciates when men dress more masculine and women dress more feminine, and I see nothing wrong with taking it a step further and choosing to wear skirts/dresses every day. I would see something wrong with a woman who wears skirts/dresses every day holding it over my head and telling me wearing a skirt would save me from hell. We are still human, and we will trip and fall. God knows our hearts and if we desire to honor and obey Him, and acknowledge our need for a saviour. Truthfully, I think women who choose to wear dresses on a daily basis are looked down on more by the pant-wearers, than the other way around. And that is where the anti-legalistic people sort of are being 'legalistic' themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 I wonder if it is possible to be so anti-legalistic and have such a loose definition of what is legalistic (ie. calling a person who feels personally convicted not to honor Halloween in any way legalistic.)that the person who uses the term "legalistic" so loosely is actually being legalistic themselves? Paul was a free man. One doesn't want to celebrate Halloween, so be it. I personaly don't because I don't like the 'holiday'. What would be legalistic in this case is for you to tell a believer that they cannot celebrate Halloween. That is the point of legalism, putting yokes around the necks of the free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry_boy_44 Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 So preaching against cross-dressing is extra-Biblical? preaching against vanity is extra-Biblical? Paul preached agianst wearing gold/jewels, so is preaching against jewelry extra-biblical? You don't agree with thier application, but you applying your own application and demanding eveyrone else to follow it is the exact thing you are ripping them for. You don't seem to understand here. Of course, cross-dressing is wrong, according to God's Word! Of course we preach against it! It is wrong for a man to wear women's underwear, as it is a sexual fetish and a perversion. An overabundance of jewelry for vanity's sake is also something that is mentioned in scripture. Of course that would be a proper thing to instruct about. We are discussing particular clothing items...pants! these types of things are not discussed in scripture, and if one person feels it is sinful for he or she to wear, then so be it! But for a church doctrine to lay down a law that says DRESSES ONLY FOR WOMEN oversteps the bounds of scripture, and takes a legalistic approach to governing behaviour of people where it is only God's job to do. I might add: the churches that pronounce such things most likely do NOT have women in leadership, or it just wouldn't happen. first of all, Paul wrote ALL gold and jewels, not an overabundance. He specifically and exactly stated that all gold and jewels were not to be worn... second, it is a spiritual authorities place to state things like that. Now do I agree with them acting like all churches who don't think like them are going to hell? Of course I don't agree with that. But for a specific group of believers to say that they believe that women wearing pants is crossdressing, there is not one problem with that, even if that "doctrine" comes from the spiritual authority of that group. That is how things work, BIBLICALLY... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted January 31, 2007 This argument over pants being men's attire is so silly. It boggles my mind? As I said, you wanna be more like Jesus then dress like he did too! As a man, one cannot dress like he did in this day and age! Darn that legalism! It always likes/manages to creep in somewhere! PS I don't mean or intend to come across harsh, just BLUNT! For I cannot help but go straight to the heart of the matter. PSS: One last thing, grab the mind of Christ and take hold of it! how are you being any less legalistic than those you are judging? Take the plank out of your eyes, and get rid of your own "legalism" before you start talking about other people's... Firehill is being very clear-sighted in this matter, larry_boy. She displays no legalism in her remarks. she and I see it as it is: legalism. no, niether of you are. You are making rules up yourself, you are doing exactly what you are accusing everyone else of doing. You are saying that certain things are ok, and other things are not, yourself, as a human. Then you are telling everyone else to listen to your opinion on those things. Which is exactly what you are saying is wrong. Have you actually read this thread and the one this is stemming from? Give your head a shake. We are FREE people in Christ! I am NOT holding forth RULES that are NOT is scripture. Only what God states is actual sin is sin...otherwise what is sin for one and not for the other is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED, as Paul discusses. We cannot hold people to adhere to rules we have made up. God states crossdressing is sin, right? Well, a spriitual authority stating that pants on a woman is cross-dressing is perfectly fine. Have you ever actually read the Bible??? Even Paul does things like that himself... Women wearing women's clothing, pants included, is no greivous sin. You are so typical of many males...shame on you. Yes, I have read the Bible! Paul says nothing about pants! Do you really know what cross-dressing is? Get a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry_boy_44 Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 Obviosly I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have already been addressed. What I don't understand is people who think keeping the 10 Commandments is legalism. The look at it as trying to work your way to heaven. To me, this is rediculous. The 10 Commandments are a standard by which we can know if we are sinning. We can't work our way tp heaven by keeping them. No one is saying that biblically named sins are not sins. It's when people call sin those things which are not named as sin which is legalism. It is for an outward show of pirty. God gives us freedom in many areas...dress is one of them, except He sdoes say we must be modest, and must not cross-dress, which is a sexual perversion, a fetish. But where does God say exactly what would qualify as cross-dressing for each gender? OH YEAH!! He doesn't tell us. Now, let's apply the principle from Exodus where God didn't tell them what "mountain" was, thier spiritual leadership did... and all the scriptures in the New Testament about obeying your spiritual authorieis, for they watch for your soul, etc... hmmm.... Maybe our leadership should make some boundaries and tell us what they think crossdressing and immodesty is.... There is alot the bible doesn't specifically cover, and I think in such areas, we are expected to just do our best. For example, God does not dictate specifically what is men's clothing and what is women's clothing. And yes it does vary from culture to culture which is beside the point here. Scripture does clearly tell us that God appreciates when men dress more masculine and women dress more feminine, and I see nothing wrong with taking it a step further and choosing to wear skirts/dresses every day. I would see something wrong with a woman who wears skirts/dresses every day holding it over my head and telling me wearing a skirt would save me from hell. We are still human, and we will trip and fall. God knows our hearts and if we desire to honor and obey Him, and acknowledge our need for a saviour. Truthfully, I think women who choose to wear dresses on a daily basis are looked down on more by the pant-wearers, than the other way around. And that is where the anti-legalistic people sort of are being 'legalistic' themselves. I don't agree with the hell thing, either... But you need to realize that if you have a spiritual authority in your life who preaches that you have two options: 1. find a new authority 2. do your best to obey your authority you don't have any other options. If you don't do one of those things you are living a life of rebellion and God will not accept those who live in rebellion.... and I agree, the anti-legalist people tend to be more legalist in thier opinions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry_boy_44 Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 I wonder if it is possible to be so anti-legalistic and have such a loose definition of what is legalistic (ie. calling a person who feels personally convicted not to honor Halloween in any way legalistic.)that the person who uses the term "legalistic" so loosely is actually being legalistic themselves? Paul was a free man. One doesn't want to celebrate Halloween, so be it. I personaly don't because I don't like the 'holiday'. What would be legalistic in this case is for you to tell a believer that they cannot celebrate Halloween. That is the point of legalism, putting yokes around the necks of the free. doesn't hte Bible say something about not participating in pagan holidays? Also, wouldn't a holiday celebrating what Holloween does be considered idol worship and, in a lot of ways, satanism??? (except real satanism doesn't actually worship satan...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry_boy_44 Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 God states crossdressing is sin, right? Well, a spriitual authority stating that pants on a woman is cross-dressing is perfectly fine. Have you ever actually read the Bible??? Even Paul does things like that himself... Women wearing women's clothing, pants included, is no greivous sin. You are so typical of many males...shame on you. Yes, I have read the Bible! Paul syas nothing about pants! Do you really know what cross-dressing is? Get a grip. Did you read what I said? Paul didn't say things like "pants are sinful", he applied spiritual principles to things. "don't be vain", well Paul defines vanity... things like that. If your spiritual authority preaches that women wearing pants is a sin, for you it is a sin... if you don't like it you need to find a new spirtiual authority because otherwise your sin is your rebellion moreso than yoru pants-wearing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted January 31, 2007 God states crossdressing is sin, right? Well, a spriitual authority stating that pants on a woman is cross-dressing is perfectly fine. Have you ever actually read the Bible??? Even Paul does things like that himself... Women wearing women's clothing, pants included, is no greivous sin. You are so typical of many males...shame on you. Yes, I have read the Bible! Paul syas nothing about pants! Do you really know what cross-dressing is? Get a grip. Did you read what I said? Paul didn't say things like "pants are sinful", he applied spiritual principles to things. "don't be vain", well Paul defines vanity... things like that. If your spiritual authority preaches that women wearing pants is a sin, for you it is a sin... if you don't like it you need to find a new spirtiual authority because otherwise your sin is your rebellion moreso than yoru pants-wearing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candi770 Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 119 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,316 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/01/1970 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Crystal, you'll never get a clear answer to why you are considered legalistic. But God has given you his answer, as he gave one to me. Keep being an example for your family in Christ with what you do. If you see your brother sin, you have to tell him, otherwise his blood will remain on your head. We are to be led of the Holy Spirit only when doing this. I know when the Holy Spirit tells me to correct someone and I know what it's like to want to and the Holy SPirit not give me liberty to do so. I wouldn't want to be disobedient and do it apart from Him-what witness would I be then-to walk in disobedience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily~Anne Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 146 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,308 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 I wonder if it is possible to be so anti-legalistic and have such a loose definition of what is legalistic (ie. calling a person who feels personally convicted not to honor Halloween in any way legalistic.)that the person who uses the term "legalistic" so loosely is actually being legalistic themselves? Paul was a free man. One doesn't want to celebrate Halloween, so be it. I personaly don't because I don't like the 'holiday'. What would be legalistic in this case is for you to tell a believer that they cannot celebrate Halloween. That is the point of legalism, putting yokes around the necks of the free. The heaviest yoke of all is living to please ourselves and our sinful natures, failing to put our faith in God's ways and trying to do what we think would be easiest. Obeying God is not something we do to be saved, for that would be to discount what Christ did for us. We obey out of faith and that noone loves us more than our Heavenly Father and HE knows what is best for us truly. Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." I tried for a long way to do things how I thought would be easiest, and failed over and over and over. Finally I gave up and handed everything to God and put on his yoke. Ahhh!!!! Much better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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