firehill Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 Can anyone explain what the Pharisees were asking Jesus regarding the bill of divorce given by Moses? Can anyone explain what Jesus meant by his answer to them? What is the cultural and historical context of this passage? Can anyone help me with these questions? I just donno? 1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Thanks Firehill for broaching this subject. May I also ask everyone to please limit this topic to discussing together this one scripture and coming to understand what Jesus meant. If we can come to agreement/unity on what Jesus most likely meant by what He said, I think we'll please Him and that's our ultimate Goal - to please the one who died for us! To start off with, I'd simply like to point out that this takes place in Judea, Herod's territory. This is significant to note because John the Baptist was beheaded for denouncing Herod's relationship with Herodias, his brother Phillip's wife. Josephus, a Jewish historian, records that Herodias left Phillip giving him a bill of divorce and moved in with Herod. The problem with this was that under Jewish civil law, the husband had to write the bill of divorce, thus Herodias' actions were not recognized legally. Thus when John says their relationship is not legal, that's what he meant. So Herod's and Herodias' relationship was adulterous. So it's likely the Pharisees were hoping to cause Jesus to be beheaded like John the Baptist was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 I think Sherman is right. I think it is possible that the Pharisees were hoping that Jesus would either contradict the Mosaic law, or get Himself entangled in Herodian politics. In mainstream Judaism at the time of Jesus, there were 2 schools of thought regarding what were appropriate reasons for divorce. Both the school of Hillel and the school of Shammai taught that it was only permissable for a man to divorce a woman (not the reverse). Shammai, however held that a legitimate reason for divorce was only on the grounds of gross immorality (but permitted remarriage even when other reasons were used). Hillel maintained that in addition to gross immorality, other offences (like an improperly cooked meal) could be valid reasons for divorce. The pharisees question in Matthew 19:3 reflects the halakah of this school. Jesus distances himself from both schools by limiting divorce and remarriage to sexual indecency. It should also be pointed out that in Jesus' time there was a "divorce crisis". It was rampant. The historian Josephus (a pharisee) was divorced and held that divorce could be obtained for "any cause whatsoever" (Antiquities IV) Jesus begins his discussion, not by referring to the Halakah of a rabbinical school, but by referring to Genesis 1:27 and 2:24. (Matthew 19:4-5). His logic is that according to the way God designed human beings, marriage is designed to make a man and a woman "one flesh". He is therefore positioning divorce as going against not only the created order, but as active rebellion against God who made man and woman for the purpose of becoming one flesh. Jesus makes 2 excellent points: 1. Where as the Pharisees tended to view divorce (and adultery) in terms of "taking another's wife", Jesus viewed it through the lenses of the divine designed "oneness" of the couple. 2. Jesus appealed to a rabbinical exegetical principle that said in essence, the more original the data, the weightier the argument (Paul used this in Galatians 3:15-18). Jesus' appeal to the creation order and the way God made us takes presidence over other considerations. In Matthew 19:7, the Pharisees counter with a quote from Deuteronomy 24:1-4: "Why then," they asked Him, "did Moses command us to give divorce papers and to send her away?" Matthew 19:7 HCSB Basically what the Pharisees are asking is, "If it is as you say the God created us to be one flesh, why did God then allow Moses to issue a certificate of divorce?" Jesus' response in verse 8 shows that the permission to divorce does not reflect God's will, but was only a concession to the sinfulness of people: He told them, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of the hardness of your hearts. But it was not like that from the beginning. Matthew 19:8 HCSB The Pharisees understood Deuteronomy 24:1-4 to read, "If a man takes a wife, and she does not find favor in his sight, then he shall write a bill of divorce, and shall send her away from his house". The Hebrew of Deuteronomy 24:1-4 probably reads better like this: "If a man takes wife, and she does not find favor in his eyes, and he writes a bill of divorce, and he sends her away from his house, and her second husband does the same thing, then the first husband may not re-marry her." Thus the passage is less concerned with giving men permission to divorce their wives than forbidding remarriage after a second marriage has taken place. The real issue of the Matthew passage is the exception clause in Verse 9. There are 4 questions that need to be answered: 1. What is the meaning of "porneia"? 2. Why does the exception clause appear in several forms in various mss? 3. Why does Matthew alone include it? 4. What is the significance of the disciple's reaction? Any solution we come up with must address these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 The problem with this was that under Jewish civil law, the husband had to write the bill of divorce, thus Herodias' actions were not recognized legally. Thus when John says their relationship is not legal, that's what he meant. Don't mean to sidetrack here but, this interpretaion of the Mosaic Law, that only the husband could divorce..., by the Jewish Civil Authorities, is that what Moses actualy meant? Awe, this answers my question, I think?: This is significant to note because John the Baptist was beheaded for denouncing Herod's relationship with Herodias,... ...The problem with this was that under Jewish civil law, the husband had to write the bill of divorce, thus Herodias' actions were not recognized legally. Thus when John says their relationship is not legal, that's what he meant. So Herod's and Herodias' relationship was adulterous. Their relationship was adulterous under Jewish Civil Law because the wife wrote the bill, so had the husband wrote the bill it would not have been regarded as adultery according to the Civil Law? Whta's the difference? If he had wrote it had then Herod's and Herodis' relationship been considered adultery under the Mosaic Law (by correct interpretation, ofcourse)? John the Baptist was defending the Jewish civil law but not the Mosaic? I'm so confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 The pharisees question in Matthew 19:3 reflects the halakah of this school. This is interesting. Now I'm more confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 Can anyone explain what the Pharisees were asking Jesus regarding the bill of divorce given by Moses? Can anyone explain what Jesus meant by his answer to them? What is the cultural and historical context of this passage? Can anyone help me with these questions? I just donno? 1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." firehill According to Matthew 19:3--"The Pharisees also came unto him (Jesus) "tempting him" and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? The answer to why the Pharisees were asking Jesus this question was to tempt him in order to catch him in his words so that they could accuse him. So Jesus in Matthew 19:4 gave them what the old testament law said in this regards and quoted to them the scriptures in Genesis 1:27; 5:2; Gen. 2:24; Mark 10:2-12; Eph, 5:31; 1 Cor. 6:16; 7:2 I threw in a few extra's for you to read on this. In the old testament law one could not put away their wives or husbands for that matter for just any cause that came along as God had laws regarding marriage and divorce see Deut. 24:1-5 for example there were guidelines. But the Pharisees were only trying to tempt Jesus and had asked in verse #3 was it lawful to put away his wife for "every cause?" And of course the answer to that was "No" nor was it the case from the beginning in Genesis so the Pharisees asked Jesus then why did Moses give them a bill of divorcement then if it wasn't for any cause then in verse #7 and Jesus in verse #8 said the answer to that question which was that Moses allowed it because of the hardness of your hearts or because of the sins of your own heart and Moses suffered it or allowed it for various types of uncleaness but from the beginning once one married another it was to be for life and you can see when Jesus was talking to his disciples in verse # 10 of the text that they had a hard time with that concept in the seriousness of such a decision in getting married really entailed and it was to really be for a lifetime and they said in verse ten "If the case of the man be so with his wife it is not good to marry. In other words marriage is suppose to be for life and it was so from the beginning but Moses suffered or allowed divorce and remarriage because of the sins of their hearts as it says in the word that they loved putting away but divorce was suffered and allowed because of certain types of uncleanness such as adultery for example but marriage from the beginning was to be permanent but because of sin and uncleanness it was allowed to be given but was not nor ever was the heart of God to allow divorce. But unfortunately sin is part of the world we live in. And marriage is to be take to the utmost seriousness as it is the heart of God when joined together that you not be put apart ever and your marriage should be taken serious as you remain faithful to one another all of your days as this is what Jesus taught his disciples those of his followers. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Firehill, I understand your confusion. The Jews developed a whole system of divorce, based upon the exact wording of Deut. 24:1-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted February 2, 2007 EricH, I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneV Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 720 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1947 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Can anyone explain what the Pharisees were asking Jesus regarding the bill of divorce given by Moses? Can anyone explain what Jesus meant by his answer to them? What is the cultural and historical context of this passage? Can anyone help me with these questions? I just donno? 1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2007 EricH, I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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