WayneB Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Jake, It's tough when those who oppose us...our own brothers... misrepresent us and attack us. I just wanted you to know that although I decided to back off these threads, I am supporting you with prayer. I think all of us...Jedi, you, myself and others...did our best to share our position. We shared Scripture, personal testimonies, analogies...everything we could think of...to no avail. Imagine what it must have been like in the early church when the debates were over whether or not to eat meat sacrificed to idols, to be circumcised, and on and on. Where is our Paul???? Maybe if our brothers would back off on the sarcasm and read our positions carefully they could grow and learn. It is interesting to note that most of us have said that at one time we believed in this false doctrine. It is an easy doctrine to take hold of since it requires nothing on our part. Regardless, I hold all of you up in prayer and am looking forward ending this discussion for now. There is so much else to discuss. God Bless, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,069 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 428 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 Does God break His promises? Of course not! To do so, would make God a liar! And that isn't so! Nu 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know My breach of promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure4salvation Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 520 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/12/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Jake, It's tough when those who oppose us...our own brothers... misrepresent us and attack us. I just wanted you to know that although I decided to back off these threads, I am supporting you with prayer. I think all of us...Jedi, you, myself and others...did our best to share our position. We shared Scripture, personal testimonies, analogies...everything we could think of...to no avail. Imagine what it must have been like in the early church when the debates were over whether or not to eat meat sacrificed to idols, to be circumcised, and on and on. Where is our Paul???? Maybe if our brothers would back off on the sarcasm and read our positions carefully they could grow and learn. It is interesting to note that most of us have said that at one time we believed in this false doctrine. It is an easy doctrine to take hold of since it requires nothing on our part. Regardless, I hold all of you up in prayer and am looking forward ending this discussion for now. There is so much else to discuss. God Bless, Wayne Hey Wayne. Yes, you are right. I will also no longer post about OSAS for a while (unless people are asking sincere questions). I mean, what happened to the old covenant? It was broken by man! Isaiah 24:5 (KJV) The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Jeremiah 11:10 (KJV) They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant with I made with their fathers. Jeremiah 22:8-9 (KJV) And many nations shall pass by this city and they shall say every man to his neighbor, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city? Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other Gods, and served them. Ezekiel 44:7 (NIV) In addition to all your other detestable practices, you brought foreigners uncircumcised in heart and flesh into My sanctuary, desecrating My temple while you offered Me food, fat, and blood, and you broke My covenant. 2 Chronicles 15:2 (NIV) ...The LORD is with you when you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you forsake Him, he will forsake you. Ezra 8:22 (ESV) ...The gracious had of our God is for good on all who seek him, and the power of his wrath is against all who forsake Him. Jeremiah 2:17, 19 (ESV) Have you not brought this upon yourself by forsaking the LORD your God, when he led you in the way? Your evil will chastise you, and your apostasy will reprove you. Know and see that it is evil and bitter for you to forsake the LORD your God; the fear of me is not in you, declares the Lord GOD of hosts. Jeremiah 15:19 (NIV) Therefore this is what the LORD says: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Does God break His promises? Of course not! To do so, would make God a liar! And that isn't so! Nu 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know My breach of promise. Outstanding Scripture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWJ Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 455 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 Does God break His promises? Of course not! To do so, would make God a liar! And that isn't so! Nu 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know My breach of promise. One really needs to read that context...for you will see that God keeps His promise to the faithful one, the one who is saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWJ Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 455 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 Ok...I'm still looking for an answer: 1.) What or who do you rely upon to "keep" you in Christ? Please just answer this in your own words. Simply. One word will do. 2.) If a righteous one(saved) turns "back" to unrighteousness (gets lost) then........ what was he ever saved from? How could you ever claim a "saved" status if you end up in the lake of fire?? Please answer these with your own words, if you can answer these question without revealing the truth you so adamantly obfuscate. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 What do you rely upon to "keep" you saved? (works, acts of righteousness?) I am kept by the power of God through faith. God operates through faith, our faith. No faith, no keeping power. 1 Peter 1:5 KJV (5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Are you in control of your salvation...whether or not you "keep" in it? We have responsibilities in this walk. There are conditions to be met and those conditions, contrary to the doctrine of OSAS, are NOT "works". We are to put on the whole armor of God and armor is used in BATTLE, not for a Sunday picnic. We are soldiers of God as well as children of God so let's not take one metaphor and exalt it over others. We're told to mortify the deeds of the flesh (Colossians 3:5) so how is that done? By waiting until God does it for us? The command is to us, not God. We obey the commands of God, not in a legalistic manner, but we depend on God to give us the strength to do it. Without Christ, we are nothing and our strength is a JOKE! Then if a person does "walk away" from salvation...or....uses their free will to "jump out of the Father's hand"...... Then do they suffer for eternity in the lake of fire? 1 Timothy 4:1 KJV (1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; According to the Spirit of God, some WILL leave the faith, which is the Way. They had to be in the faith to depart from it. Matthew 10:33 KJV (33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. If Jesus denies you, do you still go to Heaven? "Deny" means "disavow or reject" so I doubt it. Now, I know OSAS teaches that one still does but Jesus says otherwise. And if this is the end for them after all things, how can they ever claim being saved? The same way YOU can claim you're saved. Does not the Bible state clearly that WHOSOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved (Romans 10:13) and whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)? If these people did just that, then they were saved, just like you are and I am. Now, just because someone decides, after serving the Lord, that Jesus is not the Way, they forsake the Truth and reject the Life does NOT mean they were never saved. It simply means they REJECTED the Lord that bought them. God wants us to love Him freely and if He has to MAKE you love Him, then it isn't love. Now, He will do whatever He needs to do to try to draw that person back but ultimately, it is that person's decision and if God forces them into a place they want nothing to do with, that is NOT love; that is tyanny. There is NOWHERE in Scripture that states that once we're in, we're locked in, never able to leave. For what were they saved from? They were saved from the same thing you're saved from: sins, specifically, their sins. How was such a one....un-born again? Where does the scripture use this terminology to describe being un-re-created???????? The Scripture never uses such the terminology, therefore, I must conclude that such terminology is fabricated, served to only muddy the waters. The opposite of birth or rebirth is DEATH, the opposite of creation or "recreation" is DESTRUCTION and the Scripture speak PLENTY on that. Sin brings death, so does unbelief. So does giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. For surely if scriptures tell us plainly we must be born again, and how to be.... then..... Shouldn't the scriptures tell us how it is undone with the same terminology?? It does. There are numerous warnings to the BELIEVER about sin. The Book of Hebrews warns BELIEVERS about sin and unbelief. Doctrines of demons can cause one to depart from the faith so obviously, sin, unbelief, embracing doctrines of demons causes spiritual DEATH, all of which are explained to us as believers in the Scriptures. Wouldn't God do so in order for there to be no confusion? He has, plainly and clearly; unfortunately, the doctrine of OSAS has confused the issue with these non-words like "unbirth" and "un-re-born" that only serve to appeal to our emotions because they "seemingly" make sense. However, I state again, the opposite of birth or rebirth is DEATH, not "un-re-born". The opposite of creation is DESTRUCTION, not "un-re-creation". God has spoken clearly on this: Romans 8:13 KJV (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Galatians 6:7-8 KJV (7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 KJV (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Jesus said you must be born again (spiritually). Where does He say you can be un-born again? He doesn't EVER say that! Of course He doesn't ever say that because such a term is NEVER used in Scripture and only serves to confuse the issue. He DOES, however, say that if a man doesn't abide in Him, he WILL wither and DIE (John 15:6). From the Lord's mouth to our ears! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 what was he ever saved from? Saved from sins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mat 1:21 Then after her baby is born, name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 265 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/19/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 OK, we will go through just a few parts and then I will start a new thread and will not post in any others concerning OSAS. It will be how the early church and all the way until John Calvin did not have any OSAS-type teachings. " The only place you will find it in the Bible is in Genesis 3:4 where Satan told Eve that sin wouldn't lead to spiritual death, thereby making OSAS/UES/POS a doctrine of demons, as refered to in 1 Peter 4:1." Totally wrong! There are many verses that substantiate eternal salvation. And most you have read and disregarded , choosing to hold onto your self saving doctrine. I fully agree that there are many verses that substantiate eternal salvation. I don't disregard them, I hold them in the utmost respect. God knows those that are His. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWJ Posted January 18, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 455 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2004 [ color=blue]I am kept by the power of God through faith. God operates through faith, our faith. No faith, no keeping power. Carl says Who or what controls your "faith"? 1 Peter 1:5 KJV (5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Carl says I heartily agree! We have responsibilities in this walk. There are conditions to be met and those conditions, contrary to the doctrine of OSAS, are NOT "works". Carl says How does one "meet" these "conditions"? Is it by "doing" something? If you "do" something...isn't that "work"? We obey the commands of God, not in a legalistic manner, but we depend on God to give us the strength to do it. Without Christ, we are nothing and our strength is a JOKE! Carl says Again I agree!! 1 Timothy 4:1 KJV (1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; According to the Spirit of God, some WILL leave the faith, which is the Way. They had to be in the faith to depart from it. Carl says You need to quite picking out of context these verses to "fit" your doctrine! This passage is describing falsr teachers reverting to legalistic religion. They are christian looking teachers that deceive, they "depart' from the true faith in their teachings. CONTEXT! Matthew 10:33 KJV (33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. If Jesus denies you, do you still go to Heaven? "Deny" means "disavow or reject" so I doubt it. Now, I know OSAS teaches that one still does but Jesus says otherwise. Carl says You are really doing some reaching and inferring of meaning here! Not true! QUOTE]And if this is the end for them after all things, how can they ever claim being saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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