I'm a Heterophobe

[Guest StElsewhere]

Well, I'm not a heterophobe, but I wonder sometimes why people don't call me that.

Nobody uses that term. They prefer "intolerant" & closed-minded".

Why are only the heterosexual in tolerant or closed -minded...when we stand up for the WOG and speak out against this abominable behavior that is bringing this nation and the world down? Why is that become hate speech?

Edited July 24, 2007 by StElsewhere

[poetically_taken]

DISCRIMINATION, they yell. HOMOPHOBIC, they label. It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Even though what you're saying is truth, truth is hard to accept sometimes.

If a deep rooted part of you was pointed out as immoral, would you just sit there and nod your head?

If you were told that you can't love who you think you love, would you quickly agree?

I think not.

Although it can be frustrating being labeled, the only way most people know how to react when you attack their lifestyle/character (even though it may be truthful) is to belittle their attacker's character right back. It's as simple as that.

So your rationale for fostering and feeding that "deep rooted part of you" ...when you know full well that what you do is doing damage to yourself physically ...and more importantly spiritually...before the True and Living God...is what? God made you that way?...

No no no! That's not what I'm saying at all! In no way, shape, or form did I defend or justify the homosexual lifestyle with my first comment - let alone say I'm lesbian.

I was simply saying, I understand why people in the homosexual lifestyle get so defensive when confronted and, thus, are likely to turn around and label those who attack them.

Actually, this is a really good example right now. I'm biting my tongue as I write this - I am absolutely furious at how you responded to me. The second it's even suspected (get that, suspected not even confirmed) that I am a lesbian I am jumped on. No one likes it when they are attacked (even with the truth) and thus I am fighting against my immediate instinct to attack you back with hurtful words. The same thing is happening when a Christian is called close-minded, homophobic, ect. by a homosexual.

Am I making any sense to anyone here?

[Guest StElsewhere]

DISCRIMINATION, they yell. HOMOPHOBIC, they label. It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Even though what you're saying is truth, truth is hard to accept sometimes.

If a deep rooted part of you was pointed out as immoral, would you just sit there and nod your head?

If you were told that you can't love who you think you love, would you quickly agree?

I think not.

Although it can be frustrating being labeled, the only way most people know how to react when you attack their lifestyle/character (even though it may be truthful) is to belittle their attacker's character right back. It's as simple as that.

So your rationale for fostering and feeding that "deep rooted part of you" ...when you know full well that what you do is doing damage to yourself physically ...and more importantly spiritually...before the True and Living God...is what? God made you that way?...

No no no! That's not what I'm saying at all! In no way, shape, or form did I defend or justify the homosexual lifestyle with my first comment - let alone say I'm lesbian.

I was simply saying, I understand why people in the homosexual lifestyle get so defensive when confronted and, thus, are likely to turn around and label those who attack them.

Actually, this is a really good example right now. I'm biting my tongue as I write this - I am absolutely furious at how you responded to me. The second it's even suspected (get that, suspected not even confirmed) that I am a lesbian I am jumped on. No one likes it when they are attacked (even with the truth) and thus I am fighting against my immediate instinct to attack you back with hurtful words. The same thing is happening when a Christian is called close-minded, homophobic, ect. by a homosexual.

Am I making any sense to anyone here?

Calm Down...You'll burst a vessel... As you said the truth is sometimes hard...Let me mae it clear...It matters not one wit to me how you choose to live you life...you are free to love who you want and the WOG makes that very clear...each one of us has a "Free Will" to do exactly what we want to do... Who has said or implied anything differently? No me! So at whom are you really angry? The WOG? Well let me put one nasty little rumor to rest...I didn't write it! You are more then welcome to love whon you choose and to live your life in variance to the WOG ... Cool ...Who is stopping you? Not me.... My beef is when people take what is written and twist it into what they want it to be rather than accepting it for what it is ...the Word of the True and Living God. You say I jumped on you...How? ...and as far as holding back... I am not "The Report You To The Mod" kinda person...never and under no circumstances would I ever...So let it rip...it is not good to let things fester inside you...bad for the ticker! ...and as far as being a Christian ...a Christian stands up for the Righteousness of Christ and the Righteousness of Christ is His Word... and I will defend till my last keystroke the WOG... If your feelings are hurt at what "Thus sayeth the LORD" ...well whos problem is that...really?

[poetically_taken]

You are more then welcome to love whon you choose and to live your life in variance to the WOG ... Cool ...Who is stopping you?

Obviously there is some miscommunication here, you seem to be under the impression that you need to defend the Word of God against me. Also, it sounds as if you believe me to be within a homosexual lifestyle - well let us put that little puppy to rest, I'm not.

My beef is when people take what is written and twist it into what they want it to be rather than accepting it for what it is ...the Word of the True and Living God.

See it's funny, when I have read your responses to me, they have nothing to do with what I am actually saying. I do not see a single bit of either of my comments that twist the Word of God, maybe it's coming across differently than I intended it to - so I'd really appreciate it if you would point out the specific points of my comments that seem to have gotten to you so much.

You say I jumped on you...How?

..

You assumed that just because I was identifying with being hurt and hurting others back in return that I was gay. It was a simple flip of a switch for you. The moment I even suggest that homosexuals might have a reason why they call others close-minded you start telling me about "damaging myself physically and spiritually".

I am not even sure you took the chance to actually read and try to understand what I was saying because your response back was THAT far off topic from what I was saying. I mean seriously, if you had come back and said, "Well attacking the other back isn't necessarily the best thing" I would have been like, "Sweet, I agree." But it's as if you pulled words and ideas out of thin air and tried to attribute them to me. If I did imply that I was justifying a homosexual lifestyle or anything of that sort, I'd really like you to point out where I did that in either of my comments.

and as far as holding back... I am not "The Report You To The Mod" kinda person...never and under no circumstances would I ever

lol. I'm not worried about being reported to a Moderator. I just find in rather childish to use an ad hominem argument to prove a point, not to mention its ineffectiveness.

If your feelings are hurt at what "Thus sayeth the LORD" ...well whos problem is that...really?

The second bit of information that seems to have been poorly communicated is why I am upset. First of all, I never said I was hurt, I said I was angry. Hurt and angry are two wildly different emotions.

I am not enraged by the Word of God. The Word of God is awesome, good, and true - I have no problem with the Word of God. What does get to me is how some people seemingly lack the ability to put themselves in other people's shoes before bulldozing them. While defending the Word of God is extremely important, which I absolutely side with you on that, it is equally important to be empathetic.

You see, if you don't stop and put yourself into that person's shoes and just harshly pummel them with Bible verses there is a high likelihood that they will not only ignore what the Word of God says but they will also avoid Christianity at all costs. This is not what we as Christians want, to drive people away from Christ, is it?

The needs of every person in the homosexual lifestyle are NOT the same. Some of them don't know what they're doing is wrong, others choose to ignore that it is wrong and still others are yearning for a way out - the same is true for any other sin. So it is wise to stop and understand what point they are at in their journey and LISTEN to what they are saying. The point of witnessing is not our need to defend the Word of God. The point of witnessing is to give the person what they need to know to come to Christ and, to reiterate, that is different for each person.

To bring all of what I am saying into one concise point, it is absolutely necessary to listen to a person before witnessing to them. What angered me in the last posts was I got the general sense that I was not listened to and that it is not common for you to think about what point the person you are witnessing to is at before beginning to talk to them. I mean, seriously, you started to witness to me about going against God was my right as free will when I hadn't said a thing about free will.

[Guest StElsewhere]

You assumed that just because I was identifying with being hurt and hurting others back in return that I was gay. It was a simple flip of a switch for you. The moment I even suggest that homosexuals might have a reason why they call others close-minded you start telling me about "damaging myself physically and spiritually".

I am not even sure you took the chance to actually read and try to understand what I was saying because your response back was THAT far off topic from what I was saying. I mean seriously, if you had come back and said, "Well attacking the other back isn't necessarily the best thing" I would have been like, "Sweet, I agree." But it's as if you pulled words and ideas out of thin air and tried to attribute them to me. If I did imply that I was justifying a homosexual lifestyle or anything of that sort, I'd really like you to point out where I did that in either of my comments.

What I can't understand is why this thread has hit such a sensitive nerve...why is that?

and as far as holding back... I am not "The Report You To The Mod" kinda person...never and under no circumstances would I ever

lol. I'm not worried about being reported to a Moderator. I just find in rather childish to use an ad hominem argument to prove a point, not to mention its ineffectiveness.

and which word is the ad hominum ... I couldn't find it!

The second bit of information that seems to have been poorly communicated is why I am upset. First of all, I never said I was hurt, I said I was angry. Hurt and angry are two wildly different emotions.

Your whole rant is wild!

You see, if you don't stop and put yourself into that person's shoes and just harshly pummel them with Bible verses there is a high likelihood that they will not only ignore what the Word of God says but they will also avoid Christianity at all costs. This is not what we as Christians want, to drive people away from Christ, is it?

And why in the name of all the is good and Holy would I want to put my feet in the shoes of a homosexual/lesbian? Why? I'd rather take a bullet to the head...because for me to be in that state of mind...the misery of being rejected by God...I wouldn't want anything else...Please Note I said "I"...

The needs of every person in the homosexual lifestyle are NOT the same. Some of them don't know what they're doing is wrong, others choose to ignore that it is wrong and still others are yearning for a way out - the same is true for any other sin. So it is wise to stop and understand what point they are at in their journey and LISTEN to what they are saying. The point of witnessing is not our need to defend the Word of God. The point of witnessing is to give the person what they need to know to come to Christ and, to reiterate, that is different for each person.

Look...unless they grew up in a cave...any man taking ...or being taken as a woman know full well it is wrong...likewise with women... If you are going to converse at least keep your suppositions real

To bring all of what I am saying into one concise point, it is absolutely necessary to listen to a person before witnessing to them. What angered me in the last posts was I got the general sense that I was not listened to and that it is not common for you to think about what point the person you are witnessing to is at before beginning to talk to them. I mean, seriously, you started to witness to me about going against God was my right as free will when I hadn't said a thing about free will.

I wasn't trying to witness to anyone ...and wouldn't to whom does not want to be witnessed to... soooo is what you are doing going against God? If so...what more of a witness do you need that you are?....The question is ..what are you going to do about it?

[poetically_taken]

As if I care about someone reasonings for desiring to stay in sin,any sin,there is no reason All one has to do is want tomore than they want that desirable sin

Where did I ever talk about that? Seriously, I want you to physically quote where there was any mention of "reasonings for desiring to stay in sin".

What I can't understand is why this thread has hit such a sensitive nerve...why is that?

This thread did not hit a sensitive nerve until I recieved your lovely response and I quote,

So your rationale for fostering and feeding that "deep rooted part of you" ...when you know full well that what you do is doing damage to yourself physically ...and more importantly spiritually...before the True and Living God...is what? God made you that way?... Let me tell you ...God only made 1 fluke...and it was a fish....or do you say you were born that way? Well good... it is for just that reason the WOG says you must be born again:...

now would that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside? Especially being accused of a sin that you said you, "would rather take a bullet to the head" than take a moment to step back and try to feel that agony that their souls must be experiencing.

and which word is the ad hominum ... I couldn't find it!

an ad hominum argument is insulting the person with your response rather than focusing on the issue at hand.

And why in the name of all the is good and Holy would I want to put my feet in the shoes of a homosexual/lesbian? Why? I'd rather take a bullet to the head...because for me to be in that state of mind...the misery of being rejected by God...I wouldn't want anything else...

I am going to guess that you took my suggestion in a literal sense. No I do not mean literally become gay for a day or any crap like that. What I do mean is you should take a moment to realize, well you put it best,

the MISERY of being rejected by God

you can bet your booty that it's misery and THAT, right there, is why it is not optional to stop and consider that before you start heaping more misery upon them. Why in the world would anyone want a god who only doubled the misery when they were down?? And although I do not need witnessing and you have not witnessed to me on this thread, your general tone throughout this whole discussion has led me to believe that you wouldn't do that if you were witnessing to someone and that is what sets me off. We are called to "speak the truth in love" (Ephesians 4:15) From how you've been talking to me, I cannot find love in your truth.

Look...unless they grew up in a cave...any man taking ...or being taken as a woman know full well it is wrong...likewise with women... If you are going to converse at least keep your suppositions real

That's quite a big assumption there. Tell me, StElsewhere, have you met every single homosexual on the planet? Believe it or not there are countries that accept homosexuality (such as Spain and Greece) and there are also places where the Bible is not widely available in their language, if it's available at all. So my supposition is quite real. It's not common but real none-the-less.

[Guest StElsewhere]

Where did I ever talk about that? Seriously, I want you to physically quote where there was any mention of "reasonings for desiring to stay in sin".

Making excuses for being to weak to leave a sin behind ...is just that ...Making excuses for being to weak to leave a sin behind

now would that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside? Especially being accused of a sin that you said you, "would rather take a bullet to the head" than take a moment to step back and try to feel wthat agony that their souls must be experiencing.

All SIN is in variance to the Word and will of the True and Living God... and we all are told to do the same thing to right with that same:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

an ad hominum argument is insulting the person with your response rather than focusing on the issue at hand.

I didn't learn it that way...please send dictionary def?....I thought it was an invective...I could be wrong

I am going to guess that you took my suggestion in a literal sense. No I do not mean literally become gay for a day or any crap like that. What I do mean is you should take a moment to realize, well you put it best,

There are those ho suggest that the only way a straight person can really " understand" what is is to be gay is to do it literally!...then truly ...I'd take a bullet!

you can bet your booty that it's misery and THAT, right there, is why it is not optional to stop and consider that before you start heaping more misery upon them.

Look at you...a person choose with whom to lie with...you feel me? ...any misery they are in is self-inflicted!l ... And if calling sin ...sin...heaps misery on someone...they should consider it a blessing that the LORD is convicting them of that sin...and is waiting to forgive them and releave them from the burden of it ...with open arms! But I won't play around with sin...any sin...in my own life too...DAILY... nobody has it perfect...it is a continual...daily process...taking up the cross of whatever sin it is:

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

We have to DENY ourselves the things that are sin before the Father...Nowhere does it say it will be easy...He knows how very hard it ill be... But He's there to help...with only one condition...one has got to want Jesus ...more than the pleasure of the sin...and all sin is pleasurable...or else why do it? All you have to do is - want to......more:

Why in the world would anyone want a god who only doubled the misery when they were down??

If you want a God that tells you are right when you are wrong...The God you seek is not Jesus... there are others out there that will tell you exactly what you want to hear... Jesus Won't!...He will keep the Word of his Father!

Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

And although I do not need witnessing and you have not witnessed to me on this thread, your general tone throughout this whole discussion has led me to believe that you wouldn't do that if you were witnessing to someone and that is what sets me off. We are called to "speak the truth in love" (Ephesians 4:15) From how you've been talking to me, I cannot find love in your truth.

Have you ever read this about the truth of the Word?:

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The greatest expression of love for a brother or sister...when they see them caught up in anything...any sin... that has the capacity to separate them from God ...for eternity ...is to point it out ...show them where in the WOG they do err... and point them in the direction to get help ...which is at the foot of the cross... If a brother or sister loves another they would't stroke them in empathy...no that is not what the Word says we are to do:

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

In other words... if what a brother or sister is caught up in is not a sin which is not a 'knowing sin" meaning they have absolutely no idea that it is against the WOG... But hen it is a sin unto death... that person must PRAY FOR THEMSELVES... We an pray for them to recognize that it is indeed a grievous sin...

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

This is saying we all must be born again ...to be born of God

That's quite a big assumption there. Tell me, StElsewhere, have you met every single homosexual on the planet? Believe it or not there are countries that accept homosexuality (such as Spain and Greece) and there are also places where the Bible is not widely available in their language, if it's available at all. So my supposition is quite real. It's not common but real none-the-less.

Trust me the government and the people of those and any other country ...like this one ..America...know full well that homosexuality/lesbianism is abomination before the face of the True and Living God ...and ow will not be mocked...He will avenge!

Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Let me leave you with these words..."it was not easy" ...will not be an accepted excuse... Thinks about it

[poetically_taken]

Making excuses for being to weak to leave a sin behind ...is just that ...Making excuses for being to weak to leave a sin behind

Look, you continue to believe that I am giving homosexuals an excuse for their behavior when I am not. Even when I specifically ask you for evidence of me guarding, excusing or showing any form of leniency towards homosexuals by quoting me, you still refuse to explain what has made you think I am lenient.

I have no excuses for people in a homosexual lifestyle, there is no option other than to leave it or face the consequences. I do not disagree with anything about that; I agree that it is not acceptable in God's eyes and should not be allowed to continue.

At the same time, it is important to show support to those people who are leaving the lifestyle because, like other sins, it is difficult to become free of it. To clarify, that is not to say that they should give up and continue on that path.

So if you also believe that it is important to provide support and show love towards the people who are leaving homosexuality then this should be a closed discussion because we both agree with each other on all points. If that is not the case and you beleive that they should just be left alone on their journey out, that is the ONLY point that we are disagreeing on.

Finally, you asked for proof of what an ad hominem argument is. The Latin roots can be translated to "argument against the person" and thus it does in fact mean an argument that attacks the person rather than the issue.

If you click on this link it'll take you to what I found on dictionary.com and there is a myriad of links that you can click on to verify that for yourself.

dictionary.com/adhominem

and yes, it could be considered an invective but I was considering it used as a rhetorical strategy rather than a single sentence or two. It's the use that changes which is correct in this case.

Edited July 26, 2007 by poetically_taken

[Scarletprayers]

God is the same, yesterday, today and tomrrow....................one sin is not worse than another in God's eyes. The only ones that make a difference are us, sinful humans.....................what difference does it make if your sin is homosexuality or adultery or stealing, if you are living in unrepentant sin all face the same fate. So yeah, basically your wrong.

True...but the issue was not sin in general...but the specific sin of homosexuality...yes all unrighteousness is sin...no doubt...but stay on topic...Do you have a verse or that supports your assertion?

I am on topic, "SIN" and pointing the fingers at others and telling them their sin is worse than another sin, is nothing but self-rightousnes. Jesus said "he who is without sin cast the first stone" I don't mind people talking about sin in general, but picking out one and saying ohhhh thats the top one, is wrong. Lying, stealing, and sorry ChrisB sex outside of marriage, are sins and those that do them, and don't repent and turn from their sin, wont get into heaven either. If your in hell, does it make any difference which one was your poison????

[Ovedya]

This has gone on long enough.