Are the scriptures self-sufficient?

[Metropolitan]

Butero..I too come from a protestant church...we too have traditions...like the incense, the cassock, the church order of worship..And I have been a lil skeptical of them, so far! But looks like, they arent all that bad!

[Metropolitan]

So how do we view the foll verses ?

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter". (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith...Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:7,17)

Pauls teachings were primarily recorded as letters which we call as Epistles...What then is the spoken word of God?

Well, let's take a look at the scriptures in question.

2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

I don't accept anything but the King James Bible, so I am going to answer according to it's wording. In the KJV Bible, the word "spoken" does not appear. It simply says, "by word." Either way, there is no way Paul is making a blanket statement that they should give credence to every tradition and every word that has been spoken. There were many false teachers around with traditions, and he wasn't encouraging them to heed to their teachings. In Galatians, he comes against those who said circumcision was necessary to be saved. That was being taught by some, but was false. The only traditions and teachings we have to hold to are those in the 66 books of the cannon. To believe otherwise would mean we would have to give equal weight to all other traditions and teachings, including gnostics and Mormons.

Romans 13:7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their converstation.

This is merely teaching us to respect those in authority over us in the church that speak God's Word. That would mean the things taught in scripture, not conclusions they came to outside of scripture. Many people sit under false teachers in the Mormon church. I certainly don't believe the Bible is teaching us to follow them.

Romans 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

This is teaching obedience to those in authority over us once again.

Excellent stuff Butero!

Now we are talking...Can you explain your last statement?

Sure. Let's say I am a member of the Pentecostal Church down the street. I am the Sunday School Teacher. I want to go straight through the New Testament but the leadership wants me to use a particular Sunday School book of lessons instead. I may not agree, but I obey those in authority. Those in positions of authority have the final say. That is a small matter, but it can be applied in other areas of dissagreement as well. Basically, we are not to be rebels.

So that explains the eucemincal councils and their traditions...Then there really is no harm, for the catholics submitiing to the Pope and likewise! Their traditions too are given by leaders who have authoirty over them!

Dont get me wrong...This will not turn to a catholic apologetic thread!

Jesus told the disciples to observe the things the Pharisees said because they sat in Moses' seat. I would not tell anyone they are not free to submit to church authority because I don't happen to agree with that particular church. At the same time, it is a good idea to know if the teachings of the church you are part of are correct, because your soul is at stake. The only harm would be if you are being taught to do something contrary to scripture.

I was part of a church at one time that I agreed with when I joined. Later on, the Pastor changed in his doctrinal positions. Since I could not go along with the new positions he took, I left. Since I was no longer under his authority, I didn't have to submit to his leadership. If I had remained however, I would have had no choice but to have submitted, regardless of my personal feelings. I would have been wrong to have stirred a rebellion up against him.

Butero..You just said , what i have been experiencing myself..Maybe we have similar excperience..Got to go now..But I will continue later..I really enjoyed reading your posts!